alexan

I agree with anileve and disagree with hagopn "Yes, when thinking in components, it is indeed very simple: The act of worrying and carrying about one's group, nation, culture, is a higher instinct. It goes beyond the personal, and not everyone is equipped with this instinct." I would say that "the act of worrying and carrying about one's group, nation, culture, is a higher" something else (something cerebral, consequent to resoning) not a higher instinct. Instincts are the same for all. I can't see how anileve's position can be wrong. I guess (that is I'm not sure about that, but its eems so to me) that Armenians who feel themselves Armenian according to anileve's resoning are more at ease with their everyday life both as individuals and as Armenians

I just have a question about my name; antranik. My mums maltese and we don't live with my father anymore so i dont get answers to my questions She says to memory he was someone in armenian history.. thinks a prince. That doesn't really help at all. I've been told antraneg means first born.. but where does antranik come from? does it have a meaning? antranik (as you wrote it) is a very armenian name meaning the oldest; the first born; coming first. It is probably derived from Greek as the latin Andronicus was. The last famous armenian Antranik was a national hero of the resistance to Turks in defense of Armenians in the ottoman empire (Bulgaria, Anatolia and so on) and in defence of the Republic of Armenia (1918-1920) thereafter. After the defence of Zangezour he disbanded his troops in the town of Etchmiadzin, living all that he had to the Catholicossat. In 1922, established himself in California where he died August 30 or 31, 1927. In 1929 was buried in Père Lachaise, the monumental graveyard of Paris. In February 2000, his ashes where brought in Armenia to the graveyard of Yerablur at he presence of one (perhaps the last) of his soldiers, 102-year-old Grigor Ghazarian. You'll find a lot about him on the web.

Maybe I’m wrong, but the general tone of the first answers made me think that the starter of this topic had been already involved in general discussions like the present one. And, in doing so, always provocative. I’m not aware of past discussions, so I’m going to write some lines just about something the pretended polarization European/Middle Eastern has evoked in me. The side of the debate as it interests me is in some way more a psychological one than anything else. Obviously it’s not a question of cultural or racial/ethnic superiority, in being European or whatever else. But, first of all some precision about the terms. From a geographic point of view, present and, even more, past Armenia are neither in Europe nor in Middle East: the correct term should be Near East. Not in Europe. Present Turkey is in a very small part in Europe (more precisely a part of ancient Tracia) while the rest is in Asia. On the other side the Caucasus range is the border between Europe and Asia. Doesn’t matter what kind of extension we would like for Armenia: definetely it will remain South of Caucasus. As regarded by institutions the concept of Europe doesn’t overlap geography: for instance Armenia (since 2001), Georgia (since 1999), Azerbaidjian (since 2001) and Turkey (since 1949!) are members of the Council of Europe. The same four countries (plus Israel and Kazakhstan!) also belong to UEFA (soccer fans know what I’m talking about). After Turkey, Morocco (!) is deemed the next appliant to European Union. Coming to the topic, what always confused me in the attitude of Armenians in diaspora was their taking a distance from the image Armenians had (to the eyes of Europeans) as long as they lived on the mainland. I mean, before genocide Armenians were citizens of the Ottoman Empire. History (and literature, see 40 days of MD) is full of anecdotes about their refusal of being aware of what was happening to them, the favourite millet. During those ferocious years, and after the treaty of Lausanne, Armenians became known to the large european public as victims or refugees. The great majority of Armenians who arrived in Europe as a consequence of the genocide were looked upon as poor people. The first generation worked hard, and you have to consider that they were already used to affirm themselves through work, perhaps in even harsher conditions. Armenians I lived among in Europe would have never described themselves to european friends, as Middle Easterners. And I suspect that they did so, in some way understandably, because they didn’t like to be confused with the image that average Europeans had of other people from the Middle East: they were no more the poor ones, they had integrated (or were trying to) in their guest countries. Moreover, many facts gave them the right to do so: religion, attitude toward work, cultural interchanges with Europe throughout history, and so on. In doing so, however, they were also rejecting the fact that Armenia is an eastern people. So I agree with those saying that the polarization it’s not Europe/Middle East but more of the Western/Eastern kind. Even nowadays it’s easy to hear “we’re totally different from them (those living around us)”. And my point of view is that this is already hard to be accepted. Before genocide the saying would have been “we’re totally different from them (those among whom we live)”. Obviously we were/are different, but that’s not all. I’m 100% a citizen of the European country I live in and 100% Armenian (well, it’s not that simple). I consider that as a richness. I think we Armenians should in some way do the same with the Western/Eastern legacies. Why to refuse we are also an Eastern people? Many treasures lie in that feeling too. Much better than my words would be a visit to the Sarian and Paradjanov houses in Yerevan ...

In summary, turks held erevan three times: 1. when the first of them (seljuks) invaded armenia 2. by ottomans in 1585 (soon after, maybe 1603, regained by persian safavides) 3. again in early 18th century (then again regained by safavides) Yerevan had about 12.000 inhabitants prior to 1915 (surely not more than 20.000) and actually is rarely named (compared for instance to kars and etchmiadzin) in the centuries before. The kond district was probably - due to his position on a hill - the place of a fortress. So the newspaper was right. As i mentioned in the first post, last year i was in erevan and listened proudly to the keeper of the blue mosque who told that persians had been in erevan but turks never did. I am amazed how promptly i've got your answers. Thanks to you all.

On the main italian newspaper (il corriere della sera) of today (february 4) i read: "...at the end of the 16th century turks took back erevan, tabriz and bagdad...". These lines imply that erevan had already been under direct rule of turks. To my knowledge persians and russians entered erevan throughout history, but never the turks. Such an information was given to me last year when i visited the persian mosque of erevan. After a search on the web it may well turn that that is probably wrong. A History of Armenia by Vahan M. Kurkjian: "...The struggle between the Turks and Persians was resumed by Sultan Suleyman the Magnificent, who sent an expedition against Tahmasp, successor of Shah-Ismail. The Turks captured Van and Tabriz, but Tahmasp did not admit defeat, and by a strong counter drive, recovered Tabriz and invaded the Turkish frontiers. Suleyman thereupon led a great army in person, to capture Baghdad and retake Tabriz. After a brief respite, hostilities between these neighboring countries again broke out under new sovereigns, Shah-Abbas I of Persia (1585‑1628) and Sultan Mourad III of Turkey (1575‑1595). The former was compelled to withdraw, yielding to the Turk the much-battered city of Tabriz, as well as Georgia and Persian Armenia (1585). Lala Mustapha, the Turkish general, carried away the boys and girls of Erevan, while his successor, Ferhad *****, erected in that city a fortress with the material brought from the ruins of churches, some of which he himself had destroyed..." So, my question is: did turks ever entered and ruled erevan? If this is the case: how many times? schnoragalem parevner ammenun