Djrak

you still dont see how Christianity is about the people and its salvation? why do you seperate Love (capital L) from love for the nation (nationalism)? why are you worshipping an idol instead of the creator? I love my people too, and so did MesroB MashDots ( ) but don't you think he was able to do that and offer so much because he had Christ and His pure love?

there's a lot of misunderstanding here, i am not claiming to know all, but i never felt sinful until sin had me strangled and Jesus helped me out and showed me extreme love. That's when i started realizing what my condition reslly is, and how much i need Him. We need to be honest with ourselves. PS: what you said about ottomans sent by God to punish us-mentality is bogus but for someone to come to the realization that Jesus Christ is his King and at the resurrection will be judged and so live accordingly (ie: by faith) is a blessed thing.

Arpa, did i say anything about the mentally ill? mentally ill and demon-posessed are 2 different things ok? now about your question, i don't think there is a word for it but i'm sure they'll come up with one, but that's not relevant, there isnt one in french or arabic either, there are a lot of things without a single word to describe them, what's your point?

you call it voodoo, that's what people accused Jesus of when He was driving out demons, they said He's demonic. So is the resurrection demonic to you too? *sigh*

we're all sinners we're all dirty and unworthy but that awareness accompanied by faith and repentance allows God to purify us. In that process we start seeing both the dirt that comes out and the treasure that was hidden beneath the surface.

it's real. I know an armenian priest who's been involved in exorcism. "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons..." - Mark 16:17

the only means i know of prooving it authentis is if it is alligned with the rest of scripture and the Holy Spirit which serves us as guide. anytime you want to discuss anything in it is cool with me and don't forget that we are also churches as individuals being temples for the Holy Spirit, so church doesnt only mean the building or institution but it also means the group of believers (dead and alive) and individuals as members of the body of Christ, having Christ as the head seated in Heaven on teh right side of teh father breathin the Holy Spirit into His body as blood flows in our physical bodies. here's one: The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. - John 12:25 i learn a lot from discussions and it can be very fruitful as you said, each man has a treasure stored up inside and sharing that with others is like having a feast. Start a new thread anytime bro.

if that was the case, you wouldnt have been repulsed by it. Arpa, your understanding of Christianity and mission is very distorted. You don't want to hear the Word but want others to hear it. Why? Are you claiming to be perfect and not in need of God and His truth in your life anymore? There must be something hidden. Is it revenge? OH so you blame it on western armenians? is that it? maybe you dont even consider us armenians? or we should have evangelized the world and we failed to quench your avenging thirst against "infidels"? How do you know how God works and what He does and who responds and how? please do God's plan of salvation is much deeper and simpler than you think. You say the Apostles were martyred spreading the gospel and that we should do likewise. I agree but as you also said this is the 21st century and let us talk accordingly: God wants everyone to be saved and His plan from the start was to prepare a PEOPLE for Him, not individuals but a PEOPLE and the role the Church has is to prepare that people and keep them in a state of spiritual awareness and alertness just as Jesus instructed the apostles in the garden before His betrayal. If you think you are saved because you have heard the word then YOU ARE WRONG! It is gradual purification as if from fire (as Paul said). And as he sais in Hebrews we should always try to enter His rest so that we dont loose the promise. You are deceived if you think youand the armenian people are saved or are Christians because you are baptized or because you are called "Christians". God took the Jews out of Egypt into the desert to prepare them for the promosed land, and likewise we are now living in the desert and we need preparation. If that is His will and If God gives a believer the mind opportunity and strength to go on such a mission then YES we should, But when i look at our people and see the work that needs to be done, I dont know how i can afford to go to Persia or wherever but i do talk about my faith to muslims and i am not afraid of them nor death. And to be a martyr for His name would be an honour. You just don't know anything about it. Faith is a WHOOOOOOLE different life. You are viewing it from the outside and judging it because you are afraid of it. It is fire let it purify the dirt accumulated on you so that the gold that's underr it may show and shine. God is love and he is a purifying fire, if you are repulsed by it then that would be your loss. The same fire the same word the same love will be salvation for teh one who accepts and condemnation for the one who refuses. Have Peace

how do you know it's authentic? anyone can write one and claim it authentic. If there is something specific in it that YOU think should be discussed then say it. well dogmqs and doctrines may be dry and may not. You are right you cannot confine the WHOLE truth to words and that is why us humans could never understand the divine which is so much beyond our capabilities AND THAT is exactly why God became man. So we can SEE the truth and be in full communion with Him. What the Church teaches is not mere theory it is the teachings and traditions put by the Apostles for a clear purpose. To bring man closer to God. Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?” And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.” - Luke 10:30-37 In the parable of the good samaritan, where the samaritan represents Christ, he healed the wounded man, put him on his annimal (carries our burden) then he took him to the inn which represents the church, where he was to stay and be TREATED, we need treatment and our hospital is the Church and the head doctor is Christ, and nurses are the priests and members of the church. Jesus said do like him meaning care for the sick and poor and at the same time meaning lead my people to my church to get proper intensive care and treatment. And He promises to take care of all the needs just as we should do to our neighbors. your example is great, about the universe and laws of physics and natural laws. Just as there are universal laws in nature there are universal spiritual laws. Now how accurately do doctrines and teachings translate or lead us to live those is a question of which doctrines, set by whom, and for what purpose.

I wish that for everyone not just priests don't worry about it, i've been insulted many times for my faith. I hope you are ok and not feeling guilty about it. Arpa, are you a pentecostal? I fell in their trap and attendended their church for a while. And I thank God everyday that He took me out of that cult and lead me back to Orthodoxy. I found Christ's Peace and real teachings there, I found His rest there. If you want to discuss it, start a new thread. Peace

fine, ask our church then. Ask your priest what our religion is.

many of the church fathers were saints so were all the Apostles, there was no conflict or major dispute whithin the One Holy Universal Apostolic Church until the council of Chalcedon. what is excluded from the canon is not considered wrong but it is not scripture. You shouldnt be worried about such things, have you read the gospel of Thomas? What is it exactly that you find essntial in it? there is a lot of truth in what you are saying but it isnt the complete truth of the matter. Jesus' commandment was to love your God with all your heart, soul and strength and to love yur brother as yourself. Those commandments do not exclude the law, the prophets and doctrines of the Church, in fact they are a summary of them. So if you take a few doctrines and try to follow thm without having Christ as the base you are heading for destruction (parable of the man who build his house on sand and the one who build it on the rock with deep foundations and the storm didnt affect it). 2 can follow the same doctrines but one can be a true son and the other a free lancer, one can worship God with the spirit and another with his lips. that is the sad truth of the fallen world and how the devil entered the Church and seperated and corrupted it. But those who stay faithful till the end will inherit the kingdom, that is His promise and God doesnt lie. "We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." - 1 Tim 1:8-11 "You must teach what is in accord with sound doctrine. 2Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance." - Titus 2:1 "In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. " - 2 Tim 4:1-5 why do you think the Apostle paul gave so much importance to doctrine?

Parev i did? sure, why not, give me a link, is that what you do? am i? I'm sure some of you have. do i dare? Yes. i am not ashamed of my God, but i dont go "selling tomatoes "either. who's "we"? i am not afraid of speaking it anywhere, and if you are telling me everyone on this board know the gospel, maybe you should think twice. And i am not trying to do anything, only speaking the truthi have known. I am not looking for a market, But you obviously are offended. What is your problem? What are YOU saying?

What you just wrote here is a heresy. It is not the gospel. Do you believe that Jesus was the Christ? That He is God? You speak as if Jesus was a prophet or a man who earned God's approval. This is NOT what Christianity is about. It is not mere consiousness or a state of the mind. If you dont KNOW that God became man, and that he carried our burden and lived a life without sin and died on the cross and was resurrected to grant us everlasting life then you are not a Christian yet. If you think you can exercise yourself thru meditation and reading and other means to acheive a "peace" or "state" you call "christ-consiousness" you are deceived those are all lies and in time will fail. We are called to be Holy just as our Father who calls us is Holy if you don't know the father then how can you go to him and who knows the father, only he who came from Him and is in Him as the Father is in Him-> The Son and once you accept this then you abide in Him and the Holy Spirit gives you life, peace and understanding. One God head 3 persons. That's the Holy Trinity.

you still don't get it, theology and ideas come after faith faith is not based on theology but it starts the other way around. You are accusing me of judging when i'm talking the truth. For your information i have many muslim friends, and i love them all equally and i dont judge them i share my faith with them and i pray for them and they never once accused me of judging.

so if it is not about killing people (physically) it is a bonafide religion? so if you do not do evil neither good you arent evil? so if you do not kill physically you couldnt kill spiritually? which is more important body or spirit? which is eternal body or spirit? you can say it and many do say it, but to find that rest is the only reassurance you can have (it is like finding a gold mine) what is it exactly that we are talking about? List of what? but your opinion is not necessarily the truth, is it? Neither is mine, unless my opinion is not based on what i "think" but on THE one and only alive and everlasting truth.

The truth is in Christ. And being in Christ means having a close personal relationship with Him and following His commandments. The truth is revealed to me by the Holy Spirit just as it is to every Christian, not because of any effort to understand it by my human brain. Outside of Christ there is no truth. It is not a sectarian or denominational thing, It might seem that way because the body of Christ (the Church) has to live together and form a society and institutionalizing and organizing this life is necessary and efficient for its growth. Now if vice exists within it (and it does) then you will see negaive outcome and judge the essence to be false. But that (sectarianism or intolerence) never was the purpose, the purpose was and is and should be the building of His Kingdom. do they? (see the truth in Christ) Before Jesus was born there was no salvation for men. outside of Jesus Christ (God incarnate, crucified and resurrected) there is no truth and no salvation. This i tell you because I know it deep in my bones not because of what i've been told or taught. He is a living God and He reveals Himself to us.

Amen!

if that was the main reason then it was in vain, i think the main reason was faith, a lot of people could've converted to Islam and saved themselves and later convert back to Christianity. But a true Christian would never do that. well i am a follower of Christ before being anything else, i attend the Armenian Orthodox Church, i am a youth group board member and an amateur apologist. many things in common huh?

do they have the right? I am not the Judge Morally? it is interresting that you used that word, that means YOU think it may not be moral, why? I never said anything about morals. i never said anything about treason to the martyrs. i said how can you not see the faith manifested thru them and turn away? In that sense it is treason, but not in the sense that you are born Armenian and you have a duty or obligation. denial they werent killed for their faith. i wasnt, you asked me how is God extreme, and this was my answer to you, it had nothing to do with intolerence. yes you are i agree that peole can be intolerent and that they need our prayers to become more accepting of people no matter who they are and what they've done or believe NOT accepting their acts or beliefs. how is that a problem? I am not forcing anything on anyone, people are free. no, if something is wrong according to the truth i've known then i call it deception. hmm... then maybe you need to see why i see it as deception to understand where i'm coming from. A while back Christianity was new in Armenia, with the same attitude one could conclude that Apostles and Christian preachers were also deceiving. but the Apostles werent giving intellectual lectures convincing people of theories and principles, they were spreading the truth revealed to them and people who believed did not do it with their own mental effort but thru faith (not blind faith) the truth was revealed to them that is why thousands came to Christ in one day. it is revelation not mental effort, it is trust in God and repentance not national interrest and politics and armenian cause, soul not mind, eternal not temporary, life not death. So can you tell me what are the lies and deceptions you are talking about? that truth exists outside of Christ That's a matter of personal belief, freedom of religion allows one to have any belief, and one cannot conclude any deception or lie from whatever other religious folks would preach just from the content of the preaching. i agree, you are free to beleive anything you want, but when you recognze that you can never get to the truth by your means and put all your hope and trust in God then He'll reveal it to you. and discerning the truth comes later. Do you think you have no dogmas? i do, but faith came first, dogmas just shape it and keep it authentic (the authentic dogmas, not the fake or distorted ones) Edit: fixed the quotes, board program does not allow more than 10 quotes

don't you think Christ was friendly because He loved them and NOT what they did? the Pharisees were not from a different religion and He wasnt always friendly with them because they were hypocrites who were supposed to know the truth but have twisted it to meet their own interest and use it against God. Everything Christ did had a PURPOSE behind it. "You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks." - Matthew 12:34 "You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." - John 8:44 "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother." - 1 John 3:10 If you think Christ was friendly to sinners and idolators because He was cool with everything they did then you are deceived. He loved them so that they would see the truth and turn to the only true God.

do you think that is the only reason for which they died for ? i agree completely, so what are you going to do about it?

no it doesnt contradict what i said, people are free, everyone has free will, yo are free to do whatever you want, that doesnt mean whatever you do is beneficial or good. because He is the Light and in Him there is no darkness. Love is extreme because in it there is no selfishness. i didnt say i'm intolerant, you are accusing me of that. As you said Jesus demonstrated full acceptance and we should follow Him. But you can't expect me to stand and watch others get deceived by lies. I am free to speak arent I? well, that depends on what you understand by "Christian" and what is your understanding of "hell" and "faith" and "life" and "sin" and "salvation" and "eternal life" and many other things do you know love? ok, that may be very true in your case, i cant comment on that. anyone basing their life on dogmas is following death as the Apostle Paul said the letter kills but faith gives life.

people are free to choose whatever they want fanatical: if you mean extreme, then yes God is extreme, and love is extreme intolerant: i agree they need our prayers dogmatic: which dogma? on what basis? it's all a matter of perspective, you fearing love because it is extreme doesnt make love evil.