regmura

I was going to translate another article, Umit Ozdag's latest one, however he lacks the capacity to tell something meaningful or arguable. But, his article is a good example for what his likely colleagues say. Basically, he tells that Turks should get into arguments and talk, however the method he give examples about how to argue doesn't make sense at all. He suggests that Turks should argue with documents, but also Turks should mention massacres and genocides that European countries still do not accept about their history. Yet, at this point he doesn't make sense at all because while you are talking about a specific crime, there is no point to present crimes done by other people to defend yourself. There are other times to talk about them and seek justice, but obviously he is far away to create a rational approach.

Regarding the article of Engin Ardic, I can tell that it was a slap to many press members I mentioned. The newspaper he writes at also has many other writers who somehow stated the similar messages with Ardic. Engin Ardic also showed that he is a principled pen no matter who is the subject while he wrote this article, because he is also well known of his discordant articles against Pamuk.

Be honest and tell me if your messages are not personal but anything to do with what is writen on this post after looking at your replies to me. Obviously, you like quoting my sentences and making analyses of them to win an ego war. However, I am not interested in reading your self-motivated posing of yours, masturbate at something else.

Here is a translation of Engin Ardic's article. It is not totally the same word by word since he uses a lot of ironic metaphors. I did my best, my comments about where I had trouble to translate accurate are in red color. Here is the article: 08/03/2005 Engin Ardic - Aksam Gazetesi - Engin Ardic's article in Turkish As we all say 'Let's leave the words to the historians about the so-called Armenian Genocide'... Indeed, of course, our expectation from this saying is the historians will prove we are right. What happens if they don't? Are we going to accept the results, or are we going to say "not let's don't leave the words to historians." No, let's don't leave the issue to two historians, Vahak Dadrian and Peter Balakian who have done the most extended researches and works, because they are both Armenian? Let's don't leave the words to Orhan Pamuk at all, because he is a novel writer and he is just "posing." What about PhD. Halil Berktay? Which part of us(body, ass-- He was ironic at this part and I didn't know how to translate his words in a better way) are we going to put him? He is a professor at Sabanci University. He completed his degrees at Yale--not a door lock, it is a University-- and his PhD at Birmingham. Yesterday, at an interview, he tells that the action of driving out Armenians from their cities is considered "genocide" even without murder. Because they were not only driven out from east, also from cities like Izmit and Iznik. He says there are hidden orders carrying "second level importance" besides document about "drive out" letter, but also "not written" orders. These were Talat's commands to officers who were not members of Army ranks. So, let Selim Edes and Engin Civan's ears to hear (an idiom), similar approach to the subject; "Can there be documents for genocide, you bastards!" Talat, when he sent a telgraf message to Diyarbakir governor, he didn't say "stop the massacres," he made it to say, "Do not touch people who are not Armenians." Also, he mentions a historian at a diplomat status, Kamuran Gurun, talking about AG in his book, that he accepted murders of 400.000 Armerians. And he reminds that Ataturk was not involved in this issue and he was clean about it. But also, he should have argued why Anatolia movement was supported by folks with enthusiasm and why there was a law to not let allied powers to make a debate and research of "drive out" orders. (these "folks" mentioned are the supporters of Talat and others) I guess, Ataturk told to these folks "Either you support me and our war or you will have trouble with what you have done and supported about Armenian drive outs." We won the war, the issue was closed and it didn't open for 50 years. And don't forget that the ones responsible for Armenian murders, some of them, were sentenced to death in Divan-i Harb courts and they were executioned. And Diyarbakir governor Resit Bey killed himself. But also, this court was established under the shadow of invasion powers, and the court leader was the enemy of Ittihat movement Nemrut Mustafa. The ones who led the independence war rejected him. The men who were sentenced to death by Nemrut Mustafa, for example Bogazliyan Governor, turned into a national hero. Because the same court also sentenced Ataturk and his friends to death! I wonder if two wrongs erased one truth? I wonder if "Hurriyet ve Itilaf Firkasi" members' oppositional stands to "Ittihat ve Terakki" and their collaboration with invasion powers made their presentation of a sad fact vanished. I wonder if Proffessor Berktay tells these things to get a Nobel Prize, too. The best, let's leave it to historians again. But, Prof. Berktay is not a doctor or something else; he is a historian, too. And he adds "Let's make it clear that it was a fault of Ottoman Empire and we are Turkish republic, we don't have to carry the responsibilities of this empire. We should point out that we are sad about this issue." And this doesn't satisfy us, too? God, send us a historian that can satisfy us! No no, let's leave it to our "kazmas"(an idiom defining idiots etc.)and let's put our heads under the sand like ostriches. There was nothing like this issue. Let's get surprised when people talk about it and ask!

Hi Stormig, I think he would end up going to prison if it was not today. This lawsuit was highly suggested by certain press members and supposedly these members of press represent the public sensitivity on what Orhan Pamuk said. However, many of the press members such as Engin Ardic, which I am going to translate his article for you, criticize the standpoint of these pens. It started a debate going on at Turkish press right now. With such a discussion going on in front public eye, I don't foresee a court finding Orhan Pamuk guilty because of his words. If it happens and he is found guilty, it will create a big confliction amongst people concerning freedom of speech. Even though not necessarily all of them agree on how AG happened, there will be many voices raising to question the democracy standards.

I understand. However, I do expect a simple respect level since I don't attack people's values and what they are. Thanks.

As you may see at my former reply to you, you can try to understand what does bother me with your style of writing and expressing your emotions about this issue. However I am not a defendant of what was done; I am not here to defend a party. I can add my comments about reactions of Turks to certain issues such as Orhan Pamuk's statement. I am part of Turkish culture and that society, so I have a better stance than yours to understand Turkish societies problem. That's why, in my post and others, I wrote that I am not here to discuss what happened, but I m here to talk about what Turks think. I can reflect what people think about Orhan Pamuk and many others from my point of view and why they think like that. As you stated French say: "If you want peace, prepare a war" and I say je m'en fiche. That one doesn't mean anything to me, since I see this issue as the popular saying: "Fighting for peace is like ***ing for virginity." I hope you understand how I feel about your necessity of wars. So, if you are saying that you accept the western ethics, you should respect my point of views. We are different individuals in this aspect, so I expect you to not present your questions in that manner since theoretically our bases of logic are built on opposite directions.

Well, maybe before you conduct an ethno-logical study, you should go and take a simple anthropology class, maybe it can help your ultra-logical definitions of cultures and their mind settings. I am glad you find it very cute of my 6th-7th thinking, and you are really far away from being naive, if nobody notices your re-cycled fascist definitions in use. You don't have to find my answers useful. We are talking about possibilities that can happen or not. You are not representing a political power in front of me, nor I. We are not trying to sign a treaty concerning future of our nations. As regular people we are talking. A simplistic conversation doesn't need scholarly sources and historical facts, because AG is not questioned in this post. Of course my answers will be simple in this situation. So, you were free to not read or not talk with me since this post is nothing but 6th grade thinking. However, you preferred to come here and use provocation or show your pre-eminence on a Turk’s words, although you don’t have any idea about that person. You are such educated and clever, and this Turk is stupid, so people will salute you. Bravo actually. No one else found this kind of chances before, and you are the first one to use such an affective strategy to embarrass your natural enemies. Anyway I am out here. I am a nomad indeed, what do you want me to do in front of your humble civilization Siamonto? I also like your "!" at the end of every sentence. Such an enthusiasm followed after holly words.

TellMeWhy, my intent is not writing something that Armenians like. It is not about that. I have my own opinions after a long research on this subject. I am not 18-20 years old; I am at an age, which I believe I can make decisions of my own without being dependent on what other people say. You may believe me or not, I don't care too much really, but I love my country as much as you do. It is also the country to make who I am and what I have right now. Any threats, any corruption concerning Turkey hurt me as much any other Turk. However not talking about an issue, or trying to cover up with same old sayings are not helping us. We don't have to cover up sins that we didn't approve. But it is also our responsibility to face our problems and make something to change them. Do not listen or do not lose your encourage with insult messages, so you don't do the same thing to the others. Be objective as much as you can do, and you will come to a point where you can go to a next step. There are many Turkish discussion boards and blogs, make a search in Turkish and find those websites. There are various people telling similar things what I say and other individuals who are against it. Make your decisions there, before that, this is not the place to ask your question regarding AG if it happened or didn't happen. Take care. That's fine. Everybody needs a chance.

I agree with you. No need to mention the problems solved between two countries would definitely help the re-activation of all Turkey's east area. Projects by two nations in that area would help everyone both economically and morally. All the lost souls and damaged lives would be honored. I don't think the ordinary people of Turkey--living in their villages, hard working for putting bread on the table--, would matter Armenians living among them. The community leaders should be educated. They must be principled people, so a lunatic doesn't try to affect people. Believe me no matter what you are, they will open their homes, but there are idiots whose only job is to inflict extreme hatred to people living there. Once, these idiots find their selves better hobbies, I don't think there would be problem between ordinary people. Why should there be? I am not familiar with your definitions for the Armenian people living in Turkey right now. So, without understanding it, I don't want to call them Kurdified or Turkified, just incase to not offend them. But the ones I know, they have their original surnames and names. There is nothing Turkified or Kurdified about their names.

Well, as you also stated, it is an unrealistic approach with the circumstances today. In my opinion, a Turkey handling all the issues at the hand, improving the sociological level and later joining to EU, would be able to create bridges between two countries. Such as a pact between two countries similar to what you said. But, as you are aware of it already, it is a long process. It needs time: not because of ignorant individuals that do not want to accept the times are changed, but the obvious situation of Turkey's economy right now.

I wouldn't reply to you, but I couldn't help myself. First of all, I cannot see any difference between you and some Turks that I personally know. Generally speaking, all these guys have glorious days, a history that goes back and back, and you know what? They are also, always, the "good guys." There is no bad guy in this world, everybody claims that they are good and the others are bad. It is some of the Turks' problem, maybe you have a similar problem in that way, too. Anyway between these people, there are no difference, just some brand labels, that's all. However, I don't want to talk with a person who thinks that Turks are a lower race or evil. Don't worry I wouldn't talk with a Turk who has similar viewpoints to yours. So, nothing personal but something to do with thinking. Thanks and have a nice life. PS: I really don’t want this topic to turn into a useless “We didn’t, you did, you are bad&evil, Turks are barbarians, Armenians are traitors” hate threat. There are many other topics and boards full of these kind of things. What is the point of having the same thing here? Please read my first post again if you are not sure why I am here. It is not a chance for you or Tellmewhy to jump into a discussion of who is the bad guy.

Hi shaunt and Dave. I am going to add my post about what I think on your questions later tonight or in the morning. I have to finish a project tonight, so I should better concentrate on that one. Take care.

Thank you again for your hospitality. I didn't hear this forum before, I think it was couple days ago I found the address and started reading some of the discussions here. I have visited many websites about Armenian genocide which they have discussion forums at many of them. However, I never tried to post any of my opinions because of the hatred messages, threats, and insults going around. Not necessarily Armenian or Turkish but people from a lot of different countries. From my perspective, if you are against a humanity shame like this, a result of racism and ethnocentrism, you shouldn't use insults to people. Thus, I was sure a retarded Turk would come and accuse me being an Armenian lover, traitor or a half-breed. And they would say we are the master race, another will say no we are, another absurd guy who is totally a stranger to the subject will say that Islam or Christianity is the best religion, that's why things happen and bla bla and more bla bla bla... Yet, I don't care what people say about me but it doesn't work for me and what I say. Nobody is going to read a discussion topic if it is full insults and the same crap that people were telling about these subjects for such a long time. Somehow, I saw this forum's url in one of those websites and checked it. Being honest, at first I thought there were similar people here that I wouldn't be able to talk. However, I saw many other principled posts here, so I decided to try my chance to communicate. Yes, there are other Turks like me and they are not just a few. I frequently follow a Turkish community website, which people talk and discuss. According to my observations from that website, which has great numbers of users, I can say there are a lot of people who shares the same feelings with me. No need to mention, back in my country at least half of my friends share the same opinions.

Yes, it is right. But Young Turk movement was not just about Ittihat ve Terakki cemiyeti. It had a background to this party. Young Ottoman definition started being used at 19. Century and it ended with the Ittihat ve Terakki cemiyeti's wrong and unfair acts. In fact, Young Ottomans are considered as the mother of Young Turks regarding being nationalist. However, there is a sharp difference between the reformist ideas of both political parties. In French documents Young Ottomans were called as "Jeune Turc," and following generation of Young Ottomans adopted this French saying instead of the first name. It was not just about the name, but most of the principles were different now. However, in many Turkish sources and many other foreign ones Young Ottomans and their acts melted in the same pot. Yet, while Europeans were aware of the results of Ittihat ve Terakki regarding Armenian citizens' rights and existence, they wouldn't start using Young Turk as a synonym to describe things. The definition started being used before Ittihat ve Terakki and their well-known leaders. Today, this definition is not favored anymore because of the well-known incident of Ittihat ve Terakki and Young Turk definition's connection. But indeed, the definition doesn't address the same party, as I explained.

Hi and thanks QueBeceR. I am aware that I shouldn't apologize but it is like a metaphor that I thought I should use, showing that I do not agree with what my government tells. I don't see any problems either, being friend as persons is totally normal but I also think that individuals' relationships can be affected by government and communities' acts. There should be small steps, which may lead others to think on these things. About Turgut Ozal, what I know is he was a person to discuss anything and talk about, so it can be true, but also, it could be a part of propaganda suggesting Ozal was a traitor and he was not a good leader. It was very popular to blackmail Ozal. Although it is something positive which is a plus for Ozal, he could lose his support amongst media. So, I would say there is %80 chance that he told it. I believe he was a person to discuss anything and talk about.

Hi Edward, Actually, it is mentioned. However, since it is a "hot" zone, you have to get official permission from tourist office. First of all, it is close to Armenia borders, and one other reason, the activities of PKK and many other terrorist groups (not related to Armenians) are around that area. I am not sure if it is still dangerous to go there, but there used to be reports of missing tourists captured by these kinds of terrorist groups. It is one of the reasons why it is not in front of the public eye too much. And I want to believe that it is the major factor why it is not told enough since rest of the Armenian architects all over in Turkey are promoted as tourist activities and as part of Turkey's geography background. The historic sites are really important to Turks. Turks are not necessarily just proud of their own history but also all the historical monuments of the nations they contacted. While people think like that, I am not sure if the governments had special actions against Armenian remains, especially after 1965. However, the east part of Turkey has always been a hurting pain, really hard to guess what is going on. The economic status of East Turkey is unbelievably low, and this may lead people ruining historical areas to find something to sell and make "money." These are my guesses. I am not familiar of hearing about target practices at Armenian historic sites. I will make a research about it. Thanks.

Hi phantom22. In Turkey, the major problem with young generations is not getting educated about "objective" history. Actually, most likely it is objective in many aspects, but when it is up to Armenian genocide, Turks do not have the chance to learn every detail about it. Students are presented a chaotic period of a big empire with so many ethnic groups in it, and they are told it was WWI, Germans were defeated, and we were allies with Germans, the whole Europe attacked us, we fought back. While as a Turk you are listening this, and they say Armenians were traitors, they had plans with Russians, enemies aided them, you portray a scenario in your head. Being honest, nobody lectures students about how Armenians are bad or something like that, but somehow they were "out of the line" during those days. And years pass... You learn and use your own capacity to find the facts. You want to talk about them, however if the teachers, the leaders, or the elders say something, it has to be true. Who are you to argue or say that they are not right! You keep everything to yourself, because there is an authority here, and no matter what how you make sense with your argument, you are not going to be accepted by your friends or other people. It is not because every Turk is close-minded, but there is always a fear of a power that can damage you or the ones you love. So most likely, you prefer to shut up. In Turkish communities, like discussion boards or forums, anyone, no matter what you say or how it is logical, can criticize you. Individuals are ok to be attacked in Turkish communities, but you cannot criticize the society as a whole, you cannot talk about the community as what we are in reality or its shared values, and what we do wrong&what we do right. Everybody finds something to get offended, or wrong. Because we are thought that nobody likes us, and we have enemies everywhere. This mentality is well known all over the world actually, every society and nation have used it somehow to create work force or re-union. However, it can be questioned if it is necessary in this era. Well, believe or not things are changing in Turkey. Writers are talking about Armenian genocide, no matter what negative responses they can get. Also, people started talking and there will be more to come. It is not only about Armenian genocide, but there are many others for us to talk. It is just a matter of time to see these improvements. Of course these are not the only reasons, there are many others for denial. I will try to write more detailed about what I told and many others. However, it is getting late and I should be in bed.

Being a Turk, and knowing the show you are talking about, It is not meant to be "Ittihat ve Terakki" or Jöntürkler. It meant to be a young radical who agitates for reform. It is a well known definition in this aspect, even it is also used in business world, too. It has a connection to Turks but it is not about the "Young Turks" that you know. Anyway, leave everything to side, if you are following the show regularly, you should have known that Cenk Uygur and his friends are far away being pan-Turkist, racist whaever... Hope this helps.

Greetings. I am really bad with introductions. So, I hope you can tolerate that. Anyway, I am a Turk, born and raised in Istanbul, currently living in the USA. I am not here to bother you and your environment, but my intent is to be able to look at the other side of this humanity shame. If you ask me questions about matters regarding the structure of Turkish culture, politics, and social aspects, I will be glad to answer your questions, at least I will try. I believe the denial is highly related to invisible chains holding most of the Turks to speak out about this subject. I am aware that most of you are familiar with the problems in Turkey, what the possible reasons are there to make it so hard for Turks to accept their ancestors' shame. I am not here to defend what happened in 1915 or to blame Armenians being traitors. You can be sure I am not that blind. Although I know that you don't need pity from me or anyone else, I understand your pain and I feel really sorry, and I apologize. Don't worry I am not going to tell, "Let's be friends and look at the future." (A quote from one of the forum members' doctrine about why you shouldn’t talk with Turks and Turk lovers) Again, I am repeating myself, I am not here to argue what happened, I accept it but what I want to talk about is the reasons of the denial. So, as far as my concern is, you do not judge every Turk with the same stereotypes. Also, if you are a person to talk about how race is important, how Turks are mixed, or they look ugly what so ever, I am not going to reply these kind of posts. I don't want to talk about how good-looking I am, how my mother is beautiful etc. These kinds of talks are for the racists who enjoy masturbation thinking how perfect they are. Thanks and I hope I can receive some hospitality to be able to exchange some ideas and different approaches.