the real pontian

Parev, Well, a considerable number of Pontians want their land back. Not Greece. The Komnenes were quite independant from the Byzantines. The whole region around Trabzon is being claimed in turn by Armenians, Pontians, Turks, Laz and other Caucasian people. I contend that the status quo as regards territory should prevail. This will certainly shock some of my friends here ... but I don't want to get in a brawl over these kinds of questions. It's the reason for more bloodshed and I think there has been enough bloodshed over territories. We always fighted for rights to publish in our language and record tapes of music. Finally this is possible since some years. We'll fight until language teaching in school will be realized and other rights granted. Well, considering the Macedonians, Albanians and "Turks" in West Thrace of Greece, we're much better off. According to Art. 19 of the Greek constitution they may take away your citizenship (because non-hellenic) if you leave the country. At least no one is allowed to do sth. like this to us here in TR. It's funny how a EU country like Greece could treat his ethnic minorities like this. If TR did this with the remaining Greeks here some of them would have gone to Greece as so many did before. Many of my Greek fellows bark at me when I tell them this anecdote. I got used to it. I'm an assimilated Greek :-) What a shame for me!!

Yes and as the wiser man with a long white beard uses to say: There's always the need to restate the obvious as there are people who obviously deny the obvious ...

thank you for your moral support gurgen. Appreciated..

Hi Domino, I think there is crushing evidence that a genocide has been perpetrated by the Ottoman forces. An atrocity that never should happen again.

I'll be through. just wait another week and i'll come up with cracking funny jokes making you burst with laughter.

well observed, Domino.

Uzungöl. Go there? - no thanks! Full of cretin tourists, both foreign and Turk, on their daytrips from Trabzon; that mosque sitting by the lakeside like an ugly cancer spot; litter everywhere. The worst thing about uglyness is when you look upon uglyness and know that it was one beautiful. it's not that bad either. don't be so negative about tourists. we have to put up with them. keeping the city clean is an issue which is being addressed since a while. on the cancer spot - no comment. many sarahotes like it as it is.

on relevance: Domino asked me to tell him to what degree we have been turkicized. my word on our identity (which is among others characterized by our different religion, which in turn is the main reason for other Greeks to whip us) was an answer to him and thus relevant. i will do you the favor and scan the forum for humour.

twilight, in my post about the christianization thing I was talking about my GREEK acquaintances who blamed all of the Pontians who became muslims etc. for doing so. And it was to THEM that I responded simply: "The process of christianization has been even more brutal. Or do you think that you've been Christians since the birth of mankind?" this is most obvious in my post. it's one paragraph with no allusions to armenians christianizing other people. "Because a few Armenians vent their anger at their impotence in the face of a cruel and (perhaps understandably) uncaring world?" This is simply belittling the racist slant and undertone of many Aryan-pure-race-fanatism and antisemite stances professed in this thread.

twilight, your remarks are not to the point. why should I sell sth which is already amply provided? I quoted Baliozian because I couldn't see the effect of what these words should engender in every one of us - and I think Baliozian tells us a universal truth. Yes, this is an Armenian forum, but are only restricted opinions allowed? if this is the case I'll say farewell, and all of us we will be living in our own limited world. Is this worth obtaining? There's another Baliozian truth for everyone whose ancestry lived in the Ottoman Empire: "You may take an Armenian out of the Ottoman Empire but you cannot take the Ottoman Empire out of an Armenian [make it, Turkish gypsy]." I am sorry, but I didn't say that Armenians christianized anybody. Re-read my post. And if you like to find Nazi-style arguments re-read the whole thread (I don't know if some remarks have been edited since my first post). to THOTH, i am a Sarahote from Uzungöl, Çaykara (Trabzon). A wonderful place to be. Perhaps you've been there.

for gurgen and other patriots - a word by the great Ara Baliozian: "ON PATRIOTISM AND RELATED ATROCITIES Patriotism: love of one's country and respect for everyone else's right to love his own. Perverted patriotism places a plus sign on ourselves and a minus sign on the rest of mankind. Patriotism, nationalism, chauvinism, racism, fascism: among us these have become concepts with liquid barriers. Nothing comes easier to a chauvinist than to assume moral superiority.Every day I am reminded by a fraction of my readers (make it, commissars) that I don't deserve to live. Intolerance is the seed, massacre the tree."

gurgen, it might seem jocular to you. To me it isn't. I don't appreciate the way you answer my sincere demand. Domino. there is a considerable number of people who still speak the pontian dialect. Me, too, I am cherishing it. The funny but sad thing about our position is that we are more despised by our Greek (ethnic) brothers in Greece than even by the ultranationalist parties in Turkey. What nobody really accepts is that our ancestors embraced a different religion (be it by force or not, it was not always by force, though. Many times the people just tended to the new religion in order to benefit from favours or because they believed in the message etc. - Armenians and other people did the same, by the way). What I tell to people who vomit their hate right away without even listening I simply respond: "The process of christianization has been even more brutal. Or do you think that you've been Christians since the birth of mankind?" To answer your question, I am living in Turkey - most of the time. Right now I am in France, though.

thx for your reply, thoth, i didn't think it was paradise in Ottoman Empire (too many sultans and/or vezirs had a hideous stance). But overall and compared to european middle age (even up to 1750 a.d.) the mere coexistance of that many "ethnic groups", "religions" and "tribes" etc. under turkish rule is to the credit of these "Barbarians". There's no denying this. You're absolutely right when you say things changed much to the worse at the onset of 19th century, though. later the emergance of the big nationalist ideas etc. Terrible.

Domino, just suppose i am a "recycled" or "turcisized" greek or something else. I have already undergone to much of hate from multiple sides that anything would surprise me from this point onwards. My emphasizing "the real pontian" is nothing else than painful irony (to put it mildly). thx koko for her sympathetic support In nowadays Turkey people like me, members of minorities (my case is too weird, though), we are straining to put things right for us. We need help and pressure from outside. Including your adorable efforts. But I hope you'll understand that we want to live here in "Turkey" as """"turkish""""" citizens with the utmost autonomy possible.

i don't get your point gamavor. Central Asia???? You forget that the Caucasian people are very ancient in this area - no need to travel that much (even in Trabzon) ... more ancient than Armenian. So stay where you are ... twilight bark, do you live in turkey? It's ridiculous to claim that Greeks have been "turkicised" (by the way, a word which came into existence in 19th century) and Armenians just could resist this and stayed pure and clean. A lot of high dignitaries in Ottoman history are known as being Jews, Armenians, Albanians, Macedonians, (even) French (Bonneval ***** for example). Why should Turks try to conceal this if the clear cases are pointed out in order to show how Armenians and others were implied in Ottoman social and political life. They were even the most privileged people for a long period. Nowadays many people like the musician Cem Karaca are well known Armenians converted to Islam. In Turkey there are still living considerable numbers of Kurds, Circassians, Georgians, Laz, Pontians, Greek, Jews, Arabs, Abazas, Yörük, etc. and luckily we are free now to speak and publish in our respective languages ... How many ethnicities exist still there in Armenia? They are all wiped out. Cleansed. The art of Ottoman/ Turkish rule was to combine and forge all these elements to one culture in a way that no one is able to tell what belongs to whom. It is just too oversimplistic to qualify Turks as brutal barbarians who contributed in no way to the Ottoman culture. People who know about Ottoman culture know that there are many great spirits among Turks. Im a "Turk" of Greek/Pontian and most probably Laz or Georgian origin (to end your presumptions). Please stop your exclusive claims on territories which are shared by Kurds, Assyrians, Turks, Pontians, Zaza, Armenians, Laz, Circassian etc. Perhaps these territories now lie in so-called Turkey but they belong to ALL of us. If they became Armenian territory they would just be cleansed as Armenia has been cleansed. now you're free to leash out at me (i am used to this kind of bashing) the rrrrrrrrreal pontian

take it ... if you can.

Dear Sip, the people who wrote this kind of racist crap know very well ... You have certainly read this thread, so why should I bother to grapple with one or two of the people, when no one before me (as a newbie to this forum) expressed his disgust on such atrocities. This consequently means that nobody really cares if Hitler-type racethinking is professed. You have to care, though, you moderate this forum... Open racism is not a basis to start from ... when talking about GENOcide. the mortified rrrrrrreal pontian PS: I apologize for interfering into your affairs but I just wanted to urge you to keep clear of muddy "brown" waters.

UPPERCASE KOKO, (which might be interpreted as YELLING that I refrain from). why should "they" prefer the Greek man to the Armenian man...??? And why are all the architects Armenian?? Isn't it a bit too arbitrary to claim this beyond doubt... ? Give me them sources... bye, tha rrrrrrreal pontian

It's me again. My first sentence is appallingly truncated. Here the correct one. Hi, i'm sorry apparently there have been some Armenians in this region even though it's on the brim of the known settlement areas. bye, tha rrreal pontian

Hi, i'm sorry apparently there have been some Armenians in this region even though it's not the on the brim of the known settlement areas. And Trabzon (Trapezounta)... I won't give it to any one of you Now to Sinan: His Ermen or Armen by-name is not at all current. The name Sinanian is not that widespread for Greek Ottomans, whereas the name Sinanoglou is very well known and documented. :-) In fact most of the sources say that he is of Greek origin. Look at this for example: SINAN , born in 895/1490, the chief Ottoman court architect the chief Ottoman court architect from 945/1538 until his death in 996/1588. Although the names of several other Ottoman court architects are known, none match his fame. Combining a long life with the opportunities afforded by the resources of the Ottoman empire at its zenith, he produced an œuvre that is unmatched in quantity and quality, not just in Ottoman, but in Islamic architecture as a whole. Of Christian Greek origin, he was recruited in the devshirme levy within the reign of Sultan Seim I (1512-20). He first participated in a military campaign at Belgrade in 1521 under Süleyman, and subsequently, until his appointment as court architect, in locations as far apart as Vienna (1529) and Balgrad (1535). He would have had the opportunity to learn his profession in the repair and erection of military architecture, such as bridges and citadels and, in the early 1530s, in building mosques in Istanbul between campaigns.(...) EI, IX, 629a. Some of the more in-depth sources to consult on this subject: G. Goodwin, A history of Ottoman | [iX:630b] architecture , London 1971 D. Kuban, art. Sinan, in Macmillan Encyclopaedia of Architects, ed. A.K. Placzek, London 1982, iv, 62-73 J.M. Rogers, The state and the arts in Ottoman Turkey. The stones of Süleymaniye, in IJMES , xiv [1982], 71-86, 283-313 Jale Erzen, Sinan as anti-classicist, in ibid., v [1988], 70-86 M. Sözen, Sinan, architect of ages, Istanbul 1988 (full bibl.) G. Goodwin, Sinan. Ottoman architecture and its values today, London 1993. Have a nice day. The RRReal Pontian

Dear Friends, I am outright shocked on how racist, nazi (aryan-type), neo-nazi, anti-semite and anti-muslim your positions are on this board. Is this the right and proper way to discuss genocide???? One thing you are manifesting quite clear, though, you are not at all entitled to judge this matter. You're disqualifying yourself on a just cause. That's a pity. As a pontian greek I can only express my profound regret ...

I'm sorry guys but Kayseri is not a region were Armenians settled. It's highly probable that he was of Greek origin and converted to Islam within the Janissary Corps... The Life of Sinan Sinan was born a Christian, probably Greek, in a village near Kayseri in central Anatolia at the turn of the sixteenth century. In about 1512 he was enrolled in the Janissary Corps, an elite wing of the Ottoman army whose members were all taken from Christian families converted to Islam and trained to fight for the Sultan. Sinan was taught the trade of carpentry, at which he clearly excelled. He participated in many military campaigns ranging from Central Europe to Iran and Iraq and received regular promotions. In his role of military engineer he oversaw the building of fortifications, ships and bridges, making his reputation most decisively when he constructed a bridge over the River Pruth in Moldavia in just a few days. During his extensive travels for military purposes he must have seen fine examples of the architecture of several civilizations, and taken note of their qualities. On the basis of his exceptional talents and flair for organization, he was appointed chief architect to the Sultan in 1538. From then until his death at the age of at least ninety he was responsible, with the assistance of a corps of architects for the design and construction of over four hundred buildings. While he cannot personally have designed all of them or visited them during construction, there can be little doubt that he exercised full authority over a significant number of exceptional buildings, a few of which will be analyzed here.