River

Sunday May 1st, Mr. Erdogan visited Israel in order to mend off strained relations since Turkey's accusation of Israel's 'state terrorism' policy. Prior to Mr. Erdogans visit Turkey reportedly HANDED OUT 400-YEAR OLD LAND TITLES TO THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE - SEIZED FROM THE DAYS OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE ! All this is because Turkey wants to participate in the peace process of the Middle-East. I read the news item on canada.com's world news section, sunday edition. But a turkish paper , milliyet? , has written about the handover prior to sunday's visit. Now isn't this amazing that TITLES are returned to the rightful owners ? How long do we have to wait for our own titles ? The recognition of the GENOCIDE ? Do we have to wait 400 years ? araxy

Hi Bell... was it last year that you had a clandestine visit to ANI and did your reports....where do i find your travelogues ? please direct me to those articles. Thank you

Here's the text, i hope i can make it. Dear 'Hye Etch' friend, For many years now the leaders and representatives of our Armenian institutions in the diaspora have been noticing a constant decline in the participation of the younger generation in many Armenian social, cultural, religious and political events. They accuse today's youth of being lazy, irresponsible, spoiled, distant and lacking interest in most things Armenian. What do you think? Are these accusations true? Do you think our leaders and institutions are ignoring the needs of today's youth? Do you think more can be done to fix this problem? And more importantly, what do you suggest? There are many questions that need to be answered. For this reason 'Hye Etch' is conducting this international survey to give Armenians, especially the younger generation, the opportunity to express their thoughts and help one another find solutions. We value your feedback and kindly ask you to participate in this short survey. We also ask individuals, Armenian institutions, youth groups etc. to pass this message onto their friends/members and encourage them to partake in this survey. The information we receive will be categorised and the final results will be posted on the 'Hye Etch' web site for everyone to see. No names will be used. Your personal details will be kept strictly confidential. Thank you in advance, John Semerdjian Webmaster -------------------------------------------------- The Survey ------------------------------------------------- The following list is a guide to help you comment on subject that we believe are important. Please read each entry and tell us briefly what are your thoughts, experiences (good or bad) associated with that subject. Also more importantly, what do you suggest that can be done to improve or amend the shortfalls (mistakes). Please send your completed survey to: survey@HyeEtch.nareg.com.au Name: Age: Country: A- Armenian vs. foreign educational institutions. B- Importance of our language (literacy and practice). C- The role of the Armenian parent's. D- The Armenian Church. E- Importance of our customs and traditions. F- Armenian social and political organisations. G- Traditional (old fashioned) vs. modern (open-minded) mentalities. H- Today's Armenian youth (what makes them tick?). I- Youth parties vs. cultural events. J- Armenian Genocide Memorial events. K- Sports and the arts in the Armenian community. L- Armenian vs. foreign influences/environments (TV, media, clubs etc.). M- Circle of friends (Armenian and foreign) N- Cross cultural marriages (Armenians with non-Armenians) O- Anything else you wish to say. survey@hyeetch.nareg.com.au Good luck

Hye Etch is running a survey asking especially the Armenian youth about their opinions, views on various issues. They have asked people to send their enquiries to survey@HyeEtch.nareg.com.au This is a good chance to voice one's opinions on several venues i.e. church, cultural organisations etc. with suggestions as to what needs to be done. I shall try to paste the questionnaire as per Vava's instructions later on. I think if anybody wrote to them and asked them to forward the the questions they won't ignore it since they had requested to make this as much public as possible.

The famous I Musici de Montreal will be presenting KOMITAS ' 10 Armenian Dances - along with works by Haydn, Skalkottas and Bartok - on 12 and 13 February 2004 as part of the Ogilvy Concert Series. The same will be repeated Sunday 4 April, 2004 at the Eglise Sainte-Genevieve as part of the West Island Concert Series. For more info go to imusici.com or call 514-982-6038. Both concerts are entitled 'Musical Arabesque'. ISABELLE BAYRAKDARIAN will be performing tomorrow @ 8 p.m. in the Theatre Maisonneuve, Place des Arts. Her program is 'Nuits d'Espagne' or Spanish Nights. Enjoy.

They will be out on their world tour 2003-2004. For more info go to http://Komitasquartet.mdp.am. There you will find photos (1924 ), LP's and CD's , including a 1955 US release ! Enjoy

What to do ? You know those Turks are still getting away with murder. They always circumvent our afforts with deceit, forgery, and even preposterous acts like these. Our brains do not work the same way. Where can we complain and rectify the situation. They certainly are organised enough to committ such acts. Are we - all the members of the Armenian communities around the world - ready to counter-attack such acts of forgery and fraud. My blood boils . They are slipping the dagger smoothly and slowly into our existence.... If anybody dared to do the same to the Jewish Holocaust, the whole wide world would have heard by now and acted upon. The Jewish lobby would destroy that person or group that carried such an act against them. 'Jamanageh hasadz eh asonts tass meh dalou...' They are certainly benefiting from the volatile situation in the region and know any practical reaction would destroy the very movements who fight for us.

For more info and to get an insight of what they do down under you may go to hyehoki.com, agbu.org.au. For the 24 April they had an article on the Genocide written by Conan Elphicke in THE BIG ISSUE - a Sydney paper. Enjoy.

For those who are in MONTREAL and are interested in Germany's Involvement /Relevance to the Armenian Genocide have the privilege of attending a lecture by a German historian this Sunday at 7 p.m. It is organised by the 24 April Committee- all associations/goussagtsoutyuns included. I'll have to double check the venue for those who are interested......TNX

Turkey has summoned the US Ambassador to complain about a remark uttered by Ret. Gen. Jay Garner. Check Yahoo News, early afternoon edition, for more details. The US Ambassador was unaware that Gen. Garner had referred to Kirkuk as Kurdish...the mere thought of this has troubled Turkish authorities. Turkey does not want, by all means, to have Kirkuk associated to anybody but the ethnic Turkomans living in the region....for fear of any independence moves carried out by the Kurds living in that particular area. Furthermore, it is not surprising, Turkish soldiers were intercepted by US forces while crossing into the neighborhoods of Kirkuk WITH AK-7 (sp.?) WEAPONS. Of course both sides are trying to conceal the event for Turkey to 'save face'.

Hi MosJan, Who's to police Turkey if it repeats the same atrocities ? The 'humanity' we're expecting was abandoned a long time ago and Turkey has always been able to stomp on it and pull strings. It sticks to double standards and is forgiven for its misdeeds. I wish Armenia/Armenians could dance the same pirouette as Turkey knows how to.

To Arpa, Please let us not confuse the issue ! We're lighting the candle for the spirits of our beloved who were perished yet we'd like to hold their 'presence' with that candle. HOWEVER, to fight the Turks we don't need to kill. Let's be smart and 'suffocate' all their efforts on all fronts and when we are able to be in the 'occupied lands' there we shall light the candles - right where our grandfathers came from.... Cool heads will prevail, although my blood boils when i hear the ugly word 'Turk'.

The above-mentioned websites are outrageous. Imagine somebody trying to do the same to the Holocaust and the whole of the Jewish nation would be up in arms..... It is nauseating to see such endeavour by the Turks and ESPECIALLY using the name 'Armenian'. What is the best way to counter-attack such defamations ? How can we lobby these evil acts ? I'm sure there's a dollar sign attached to it. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH OF TURKEY TRYING TO DISTURB THE ETERNAL PEACE OF THOSE IT HAS MASSACRED !

I'll pass on your interest to one community organisation - if that's what you wish - or, if that fails there could be some other venues to be explored. In the latter's case i have to use some resources. Will let you know a.s.a.p. when there's an answer.

Vava is right in suggesting Montreal - as i live there and somehow do attend functions. Montreal is almost the hub of cultural gusto. But the US has got all the rich people....just imho (in my humble opinion). I've seen your father's paintings on armsite.com is that correct ? Keep in touch.

Hi Vava, Thanks for the welcome you extended , this is a good forum and the only Armenian one i participate. I see your point where you say 'did you consent to your baptism ....didn't grant our individual approval..' You are correct; i did not consent to my baptism but the very fact that i stayed with the Armenian Church is because i have decided to stay there and be part of it. I am very much interested in learning about and understanding the philosophy etc. of other religions be it Buddhist, Islam, Judaism , Baha'i.......I have the choice, at my age , to wilfuly be part of another church. What was determined for me as a child can be opted out and another route be followed. I have the right as a conscientious (sp. ?) adult to choose where to go. I understand your viewpoint but i think what the Mormons are trying to do has got ulterior motives which i explained in the post-reply to Hyebruin. It is also immoral what their doing- their aim is to fill in the reistry so that they'll claim the highest membership. Imagine other religious groups doing this- Moslems claiming Christians as their members; Buddhists claiming....Chaotic. Where's the sacrilege of respecting members of other denominations. Why disturb the 'eternal peace' of those who are dead ? Why step into another person's domain and disturb what was established ? I don't think our church sits down and contemplates to 'steal members from other denominations' ? I certainly do not think it is correct what has happened. Tnx.

To Hyebruin, The insult is to the Armenian Church- these proxy baptisms took place without the prior knowledge and approval of the Arm. Church. The implication is stealing members from one church into another, fabricating historic documents. It's not just a simple listing of genealogy, it's theft and Disrespectful for those who were massacred for the very fact that they were Armenian and Christian. I find it an infringement of my rights as an individual when i have accepted, as an adult, to remain within the perimeters of the Armenian Church, to have somebody steal me away from where i have felt comfortable to somewhere i have never thought of 'consenting' to be part of. If I had veered my alleigance, wilfully and as a conscientious independent person to become a member of the Mormon Church then THAT' S FINE. But to take upon oneself to baptize the very pillars of our Church like St Gregory The Illuminator, St. Vartan, Krikor Naregatsi, Mesrob Mashdotz, Nerses Shenorhali and 'appropriate' them into the Mormon Faith is demeaning, immoral (theft),, unlawful. What evidence is there that these dead persons have communicated 'willingness' and 'acceptance' to such acts. To add insult to injury, WHAT RIGHT do they have to include Genocide victims into their listing- the evidence is there that they want to show a registry of the highest number of membership.

Outrageous ! As reported by Carissa Vanitzian-Armenian News Network- on Groong.com . Mormons proxy-baptize, secretly, Armenian Saints, Genocide victims and notable deceased Armenians. "Proxy baptism is a caring expression of faith that provides deceased persons the opportunity to accept or reject what we believe to be a blessing offered in their behalf" said Dale Bills, Mormon Church Spokesman. "Our faith is firm that individual ability to choose continues beyond the grave. Again, nothing os forced on anyone. Since no offense is intended, we hope none will be taken." They have proxy-baptised Komitas Vartabed, William Saroyan, Sayat Nove etc. In 1995 the Mormon Church was asked to remove all Holocaust Victims' names from their International Genealogical Index which contains some 400 million names. They still have kept a few hundred (?) names of the Holocaust victims and they're asked by the Jewish community to erase those names from their database. Imagine the audacity of it all ! It is contested by the Armenian Church and should be pursued. It is a sacrilege. An insult to the memory of the victims. Nobody has the right to baptize any human being, alive or dead, without the prior approval of the individual- of course we can only do that upon the express wishes of the 'alive' person and not a 'dead' person.

Quote :"Our President, government and people will help Azerbaijan to release Azerbaijani lands from Armenian aggressors" said Shahid Navaz, Director, Pakistan National Colleague of Defense, meeting with Safar Abiyev, Azerbaijani Minister of Defense on April 10 . Mr. Abiyev expressed that Azerbaijan-Pakistan military cooperation will develop. This article was cited in groong.usc.edu/news/msg66889.html. It was condensed from BAKU TODAY. (I don't know if i'm allowed to cite sources of newspapers as reported through another source ?) In another article the Baku government consistently accuses Armenians of holding Azeri prisoners, usurped lands etc. I think Pakistan should stick to solving its internal and problems of direct proximity (India) rather than meddle into the conflict of independent two sovereign countries....

Hmmm. I was debating that. I wanted to give it more weight and find out if other people were of the same opinion re Turkey's intentions : )

Turkey is up to its dirty tricks again. Last time i checked on yahoo news and canada.com national news the report was this. Turkey is so alarmed and watchful because ' IT FEARS THAT kURDS WOULD BE TRYING TO COVER UP EVIDENCE OF ETHNIC TURKISH PAST" in Kirkuk. And what tops it all is Mr. Gul's statement : Turkey resents any "ATTEMPTS TO CHANGE THE (DEMOGRAPHIC) STRUCTURE OF THOSE PLACES ARE UNACCEPTABLE." The Turkoman chief has gone to the extent of accusing the Kurds of "ethnic cleansing"...... Is n't it hypocritical of Turkey accusing the Kurds of the same acts it has executed for centuries vis a vis the Armenians , on ' its territorries' ? Doyou think that Turkey rejected US warplanes basing itself in Turkey so that it will take on an invasive and aggressive role at the drop of the hat ? I cetainly believe so. I'm sure there will be pros and cons.

Hi Arpa, the Turks are allowed to send 'observers' to Kirkuk. Yeah, right with all the military concentration at the border (bbc.co.uk sources) corresponds to ....as the saying goes......"aghvesseh havnotsin bahaban en garkel", aka the fox is in charge of the .....what does he like most? ...chicken. The Kurdish rejoice would be short-lived. What a catastrophy; how many fronts are opened up now ? Nobody would give up oil-rather- the economics of it. Have you read THE LAST JIHAD by Joel C.Rosenberg ? He quotes Jeremiah 51:24, 37 talking about .....and 'awe'. Politics is nasty- never nice. You have to play dirty to stay in the game, unfortunately. I think we would be very naive to ever think there would be someone who out of the goodness of their heart will pat our back and say...Armenians are good people, hard-working, industrious, christian etc. ...they deserve to have a homeland, not lose their shirt, kingdom. If what Armenians want does not fall into their plans - like , perhaps, the last Cilician King's plans , then forget it. Remember Kherimian Hayrig with his 'Iron Ladle' analogy ? As, for the Crusaders, i do not recall any good works done. Killing, in the name of religion, is never justified. Freeing Jerusalem from heathens resulted in the killing of numerous human beings. How disturbing and horrendous. Rather disgusting. The so called 'white european' proved to be no different from the Moors or the Seljuk Turks (?) with the brutality he performed. Have you read Dr. Runciman's account of the Crusades. He portrays the Armenians as one of the most conniving ethnic groups- basing himself on the accounts of the Byzantines. We could say the same about the Byzantines, too. Our relationship with them lacked trust. They are always at loggerheads stealing principalities, lands, crowns from each other. As Karl Marx implied economics is the fundamental reason for war between nations - even simple citizens. Phew, i've been jumping from one topic to another ! Keep well.

Thanks a million To think that i spent one full hour on google researching the crusades. This is great help. I shall refer Keran (her text appears on this thread) to your posts. I do read french, no problem- i live in Quebec, Canada.

Hi, i found out today that the post i'm talking about does in fact exist. It's the one preceeding your response. Anyway, i don't think i have anything to add to the Oscars - it is passe by now- not the Armenian issue though ! Cheers.

What a shame that such a person should die. But he was there helping people in great need. May his soul rest in peace.