No Armenian Artsakh monuments site

[Armat]

No Armenian NK monuments site that I can see out there.Its rather disappointing that we have not successfully presented Artsakh as Armenian to the world.

Furthermore why are we still using Karabakh as name officially.It should be changed long time ego.

If you think there is good site showing Armenian monuments in Artsakh then please post it.

[Armat]

I am little curious Arpa and others is there any truth that Artsakh Armenian churches were Albanian.This is what Azeris claim.The problem I see we have done poor job of counteracting this claims.There should be at least ten books chronology of monuments with details about these monuments.

[Johannes]

Նախ եկէք համաձայնուենք, որ Ալբանականը (Աղուանական) ոչ ադրբէջանական է, ոչ թուրքական, ոչ էլ իրանական:

Պարզեցուած՝

Կայ երկու Աղուանք, հինը՝ աղուանական (հիւսիս արեւելքում, Կուրից այն կողմ), եւ նորը՝ Հայաստանի Արցախ եւ Ուտիք նահանգներին միացած, հայկական, Կուրից այս կողմ: Պարսիկ թագաւորը Աղուանքին միացրել է հայկական երկու նահանգ, Աղուանից եկեղեցին էլ հաստատուել է հայկական նահանգներում՝ Արցախում, որպէս ապահով երկիր: «Աղուանքը» կամ Հայոց Արեւելից կողմը, հայկական երկիր է եղել, հայաբնակ, հայախօս, հայկական:

Գանձասարն էր վերջին նստավայրը. Ռուսները միացրին Էջմիածնին:

Edited November 29, 2009 by Johannes

[Armat]

Նախ եկէք համաձայնուենք, որ Ալբանականը (Աղուանական) ոչ ադրբէջանական է, ոչ թուրքական, ոչ էլ իրանական:

Պարզեցուած՝

Կայ երկու Աղուանք, հինը՝ աղուանական (հիւսիս արեւելքում, Կուրից այն կողմ), եւ նորը՝ Հայաստանի Արցախ եւ Ուտիք նահանգներին միացած, հայկական, Կուրից այս կողմ: Պարսիկ թագաւորը Աղուանքին միացրել է հայկական երկու նահանգ, Աղուանից եկեղեցին էլ հաստատուել է հայկական նահանգներում՝ Արցախում, որպէս ապահով երկիր: «Աղուանքը» կամ Հայոց Արեւելից կողմը, հայկական երկիր է եղել, հայաբնակ, հայախօս, հայկական:

Գանձասարն էր վերջին նստավայրը. Ռուսները միացրին Էջմիածնին:

So how do you explain Azeris claiming to be Albanian and Turk same time.I just want to understand their propaganda.If Albanians were not Azeris then what happened to them.

thanks

[Johannes]

So how do you explain Azeris claiming to be Albanian and Turk same time

 

Աղուանական ծագում ունենալը՝ պատմական Աղուանքի հողի վրայ լինելը արդարացնում է: Քաղաքական պահանջք է. առաջին անգամը չէ, որ պետական քաղաքականութիւնը միջամտում է պատմագիտութեանը:

 

Գուցէ եկվոր լինելու բարդոյթն ունեցել են՝ թուրք են, բռնագրաւիչ, ուստի՝ աւելի հին ու քաղաքակիրթ ազգ լինելու քաղաքական պահանջք են ունեցել:

 

Ադրբէջանցիների թուրք եղբայրներն էլ, Անկարայում, հանգիստ միտքով կարողանում են թուրքական համարել հին Փոքրասիական ժողովուրդները, շումերները, եւ այլն:

 

 

If Albanians were not Azeris then what happened to them

 

Աւելի հեշտ է խօսել տարածքի մասին, որ անշարժ է, քան մարդկանց մասին: Աղուանացիները մեկ-միասնական ցեղ ու լեզու չեն եղել, հայերի ու վրացիների նման չեն կարողացել ազգ լինել: Հիւսիսային Կովկասից եկած զանազան ասպատակիչները, ինչպէս նաեւ Իրանից եկած գաղթականները, տեւաբար փոխել են Բուն Աղուանքի ցեղային պատկերը:

 

Աղուանական այբուբենով գրուած մի պատառիկ է գտնուել միայն, Մինգեչաուրի պեղումներում: Այդ, Աղուանքի ո՞ր լեզուով է գրուել, յայտնի չէ: Փաստ է, սակայն, որ աղուանական գրականութիւն չի ստեղծուել ընդհանրապէս, չեն կարողացել անել, քանի որ մեկ միասնական լեզու չի եղել, որ հասկանալի լինի բոլորից:

 

 

Ըստ իս, քրիստոնեայ մնացածների մի մասը վրացի է եղել, ուրիշներ՝ հայ: Զրադաշտականութիւնն ու յետոյ իսլամութիւնը ընդունողները թուրք ու պարսիկ են դարձել:

 

Չանտեսել նաեւ ներկայիս Ադրբէջանում ապրող Ուտիները (Լուսաւորչական քրիստոնեայ), Թաթերը (պարսկախօս), Ավարները, լեզգիները եւ այլ ցեղեր, որոնք գուցէ հին աղուանացիները կազմող ցեղերից են եղել:

 

 

Աղուանք անունը (Albania) ամէնից երկար ժամանակ, հայերի մօտ է պահպանուել: Աղուան անձնանունը հայերի մօտ տարածուած է: Գանձասարի Կաթողիկոսութիւնը Աղուանից կաթողիկոսութիւնն է եղել, փոխադրուած հայկական հողի վրայ եւ հայ հօտով:

 

Աւելի մանրամասն տե՛ս «Աղուանից Աշխարհի Պատմութիւն» գիրքը, որ քիչ-քիչ արձանագրում են այստեղ:

 

Կրկնեմ, Բուն Աղուանքը եւ աղուանացիները հայերի հետ կապ չունեն:

 

Մովսէս Կաղանկատուացու պատմած Աղուանքը (Հայոց Արեւելից Կողմանց երկիրը՝ Արցախ եւ Ուտիք) հայկական է, հայոց պատմութիւն է:

 

Աղուանք «անունը» փոխանցուել է հայկական այդ երկու նահանգներին իշխող դասակարգի ու եկեղեցական կազմակերպութեան հետ միատեղ (Կաթողիկոսութիւն է եղել ինչպէս Վասպուրականի Արծրունիների կաթողիկոսութիւնը), ու իբր այդ ժողովուրդի պատմութիւնն է, սակայն, իրօք, Հայոց Պատմութիւն է, քանի որ բուն Աղուանքն ու աղուանացիները, որպէս ազգային խմբաւորում (որ չի բիւրեղացել) դեռ այդ ժամանակներից անհետանալու ընթացքի մէջ են եղել ու անհետացել՝ Կուր գետից մինչեւ Կովկասեան լեռներ ու Կասպից ծով տարածուող իրենց հայրենիքում:

 

 

«Աղուանք» անունը, «Աղուանքի կաթողիկոսութիւն» անունը հայերի մօտ եղել է նոյնը, ինչ Բագրատունիների անունը Վրացիների շրջապատում: Հայ Բագրատունիներից ոմանք հաստատուելով Վրաստանում, շարունակուել վրացի, եւ ապրել են վրացական պատմութիւնը, որ Վրաստանին է պատկանում:

 

Ուրեմն՝ Պիտի միշտ զգոյշ լինել եւ զանազանել Բուն Աղուանքը, որի աղուանական պատմութիւնը ընդհատւում է Մարզպանական Աղուանքի կազմի ժամանակ, եւ Նոր Աղուանքը՝ Հայոց Արեւելեան երկու նահանգների,Արցախի եւ Ուտիքի պատմութիւնը, որ անջատւում է Մարզպանական Աղուանքի բուն աղուանական տարածքից՝ որոշ ժամանակ անց:

 

 

Վրացիք, Աղուանքը ճաաչում են Ռանի անունով, որ Արցախի Առանշահիկ հայ նախարարական տան անունով է եղել:

 

 

[Arpa]

Dear Armat, please don't let them ruffle your furkey-eathers.

http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/enlarge/wild-turkey_image.html

I had written this before Joannes posted his excellent article.

Armat-Posted Yesterday, 01:15 AM

No Armenian NK monuments site that I can see out there. Its rather disappointing that we have not successfully presented Artsakh as Armenian to the world.

Furthermore why are we still using Karabakh as name officially.It should be changed long time ago

If you think there is good site showing Armenian monuments in Artsakh then please post it.

We are, have been in a reactive mofe rather than a pro-active one. We only yelp in response to the bark pf those dogs. We are constantly embroiled in “damage control”, trying, sometime with little success to “shut the barn door after the horse is stolen” so to speak. ՑԱՒԴ ՏԱՆԵՄ As to designation of the Republic of Artsakh, it is a long process that has not yet started, except here**. When will it start? As the saying goes - “the fish begins to smell at the head” There may be political reasons which me, the politico-imbecile don’t understand, but look what the (official?) “embassy” of Artsakh in Washington calls itself. http://www.nkrusa.org/

We, here began a semi successful campaign to not use the furko-russian name, and our fearless leaders placed a filter to convert it. Thank you Garo and MosJan. When I say “semi-successful”, it is so pervasive and there are so many different ways to spell the word and a plethora of abbreviations like NK/NKR, words beginning with the letters K, G, GH … and.. you name it.Why do 99.99% of (Armenian) news and commentary sources still use those damn russo-furkish designations???? After all. Whose Land is tat? the russky-s or the furko-s? Do they call our Homeland Hayastan??? We’ll have to expand our campaign further and SHAME all those so called (Armenian) media who still use that damn designation. Who called those Armenian Lands with the K/G/GH word? Was it Tigran II? See below. Enough hyperventilating. Shut me up!!!!

** Just like the P**** word is not allowed to describe those dogs like enver, talaat and Saints like Zoravar Andranik.

-----

 

Their claim of Albanian ancestry is no different than that of their idiotic cousins to the west who claim ancestry to the Hittites among many other Asia minor peoples, and now, slowly but surely they are trying to own the Urartians. Even though, as above their claim of assimilations, just like the others’ claim to Hittite and Urartuans may not be altogether fictitious , their claim to heritage to the purported ancestry of theii predecessors is a BLATANT LIE!!!. They both are unwelcome invaders, converters and erasers of existing cultures by the sword. Let either of them show us even one word of Hittite or Albanian in their non-languages, even one letter of the Alphabet of the native peoples. Let them show us where and on which Christian monument the inscriptions are in Albanian or Hittite(“christian furks“?. Who the hell are they? Are they the ones that go to Church and yell “ällahu akbar“, the furkïsh version “ekber“?.

Those inscriptions are all in Armenian. Just as one time tis F* furk so called “archeologist/kakeologist” held a tablet with clearly Armenian script that even I could read to the plain view of the camera and said “it is as yet un-deciphered exotic language”. So, the Armenian inscriptions on Aghtamar/(Ak-damar) are as yet un-deciphered exotic language by “christian furks“?

First off. I don’t know this. What do THEY call the (Caucasian) Albanians?(1)

At times the land and the people have been called Ardha, Arran etc. by the Persians, Arabs et al.

(We know that they and the Arabs call the Balkan Albanians Arnawout/Arnavoud.)

I wish Johannes would expand his above entry and go into the history.

The way I understand (see Johannes’post above) the Aghvanq were a loosely formed collections of tribes wandering in the fertile fields of Kur and Arax rivers, according to the British Encycl. They were a people who in spite of living in those fertile land did not know or practice of agriculture.

Although some sources try to intimate that they have had (a) kingdom at one time or other, to me it seems they have been very amorphous. They have been invaded by many peoples , the first of which seems to be Tigran II, followed by the Romans, Georgian and Armenian Bagratunis, the Sassanid Persians, Russians etc. but their final blow came from the marauding turkics from Central Asia, who totally and finally assimilated, islamized and absorbed them. Until which times they were Christians thanks to the conversion by the Armenians. We know that Mashtots preached and taught there he also devised now defunct alphabet. (3) Aghvanq was an Armenian Diocese for over a thousand years with their own Catholicoi who were always Armenian.(2)

It is not altogether a lie when they say some of those Christian monuments are Albanian , as some of them were built by the Albanian Chrsitians, fashioned and built by Armenian architecture and Armenian builders (Catholicoi). It is not unlike when the other idiots to the west claim that all those Armenian monuments were built by “christian furks”, whoever the hell they may be..

In conclusion. Dear Armat, they don’t deserve be taken seriously. Only in derision, mockery and ridicule. Maybe then they will realize that no one takes them seriously, not even their ethno-religious “brothers” the Persians, except for those who drink petrol for breakfast, instead of Apricot Juice. .

----

1.- I don’t know which came first, who copied from whom. the Armenian appellation of Aghvan/Աղուան, Աղվան is a direct transliteration of the Latin Alban where the L becomes GH/Ղ and the B becomes V/Վ as in Bahram /Vahram/Վահրամ** , which in further russification (no H in Cyrillic/Russian,, they either change it to G or drop it altogether as I Agobian), That is how Vahram becomes BaGram as in Bagramian. Hambar-tsoum becomes Gambar(ov).

This is not unique to Armenian. See how Ibn Sina, the famous Arab/Persian? physician turns to AVicenna in Greek and Latin.

 

2.- See ԱՂՎԱՆԻՑ ԵԿԵՂԵՑԻ: The Albanians were Christianized by te Armenians. The first missionary was a certain Grigoris who was martyred (338AD) upon the order of a king Sanatruk Arshakuni and was buried at Amaras. Even then Christianity spread and became a state religion, not the least of it due to Mesrop Mashots , who in 415-420 AD not only preached and taught , he also devised their Alphabet. While all this time the Albanian Church was a “diocese” of the Armenian Catholicosate, eventually to become a Catholicosate of its own. It lasted over a 1000 years, 551-1828 AD. Even if towards the end it had shrunk and reduced to the Armenia Melikdom of Artsakh. The first Catholicos was Abas/Աբաս 551-595 and the last was Sargis Catholicos 1815-1828, close to 100 Cathoilicoi I the interim, when he was known as the “metropolitan” (Russian Orthodox?) rather than a Catholicos.

 

3. - There is practically no record of the Albanian language and the Alphabet. Guess who gets the “credit”, except a few incomplete torn up shreds , some of which are preserved in te Matenadaran, of which it is very difficult to reconstruct their language.. According to Ajarian’s Hayots Grer@ Ճայոց Գրերը, chapter X Աղուանից Գիրը, we see tat Mashtots had devised a system of of 52 letters, 9 vowels and 43 concomitants. I will not go into details why. My guess is that the Albanians had more sounds, like long and short vowels and consonants that we don’t know. Except that their Alphabet, unlike the Armenian Ա Բ Գ and the Greek Alpha Beta Gamma, begins with Alt/Ալթ for A , followed by Oteth/Օտէթ for 0/Ո. I have to read mor in detail to see why they had to have 52 characters.

PS-ՅԳ -Կարդացի Յովհաննէսի վերջին յղումը եւ հարց ծաքեց թէ ինչու մենք երկու խեղճ, որբացած եւ տարագիր Հալէպցի Հայերս խօսինք ԳԻՏԱԿԱՆ պրպտումով քան թէ զգացական ոռովայնով?

Edited November 30, 2009 by Arpa

[Armat]

Նախ եկէք համաձայնուենք, որ Ալբանականը (Աղուանական) ոչ ադրբէջանական է, ոչ թուրքական, ոչ էլ իրանական:

Պարզեցուած՝

Կայ երկու Աղուանք, հինը՝ աղուանական (հիւսիս արեւելքում, Կուրից այն կողմ), եւ նորը՝ Հայաստանի Արցախ եւ Ուտիք նահանգներին միացած, հայկական, Կուրից այս կողմ: Պարսիկ թագաւորը Աղուանքին միացրել է հայկական երկու նահանգ, Աղուանից եկեղեցին էլ հաստատուել է հայկական նահանգներում՝ Արցախում, որպէս ապահով երկիր: «Աղուանքը» կամ Հայոց Արեւելից կողմը, հայկական երկիր է եղել, հայաբնակ, հայախօս, հայկական:

Գանձասարն էր վերջին նստավայրը. Ռուսները միացրին Էջմիածնին:

Arpa thank you

Johannes thank you

 

 

To sum up here is what I understand so far from help from both of you.

Albanians or Aghvans were indigenous group of people who inhabited present Artsakh and Armenian Church had direct control over their church.Some of the Churches were built by Aghvans in the style of Armenian architecture.They survived as group more or less until early 1800.Most Aghvans assimilated into Armenian,Russian,Persian,Turkish and later on after conquest of the region by the muslims they converted to Islam and basically assimilated.

To counteract Azeri claim of being Albanian decent.

1.Azerbaijanis predominately are Turks who were invaders of the region and erasers of local cultures and inhabitants.

2.Some Albanians did assimilate into Azeris however their minuscule numbers are irrelevant to claim the heritage of indigenous population.With the same logic Albanians assimilated into Armenians in much greater numbers hence Armenians claiming Albanian heritage is even stronger.

3.Armenian kingdom, regions indeed exited in Arsakh and even found one of the cities built by Tigran the great.

4.Armenian Meliks ruled Artsakh semi Independently under control of Persians and Turks until Russian conquest of the region.

 

Rest I understand well.I have Jamal Mirza's correct translation of Karabahk history which confirms Armenian presents there.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Armat

[Zartonk]

I am little curious Arpa and others is there any truth that Artsakh Armenian churches were Albanian.This is what Azeris claim.The problem I see we have done poor job of counteracting this claims.There should be at least ten books chronology of monuments with details about these monuments.

 

Հարգելի Արմատ,

 

I haven't yet read any of the replies following this, but I do suggest considering the historical compilation of the Late Classical-Early Medieval era by Movses Kaghankatvatsi/Մովսես Կաղանկատվացի* titled 'The History of the Country of Albania/Պատմություն Աղվանից.

 

(Դժբախտաբար չկա Համաշխարհասարդոստայնուm «internet» Հայերեն թարքմանութիւնը: )

 

Russian Translation

 

In fact, the following is a great introduction to not only the content of the historic account itself but the extended relation of Caucasian Albanian history to Armenia and the undeniable influence of Armenia on the foundation and throughout the organized existence of the nation.

 

Volume II of 'The Heritage of Armenian Literature' Trilogy, From the sixth to the eighteenth century

 

Moreover, and immediately appropriate to your question is the history of the Albanian Church. The conception of the Church took place in 313, a mere 12 years after the 'nationalization' of Christianity in Armenia.According to accounts, the Caucasian Albanian king Urnayr (Ուրնայր/Ուրն-այր/այր? Ayr sounds quite Armenian to me.)goes to the See of the Armenian Apostolic Church to receive baptism from the then-still Patriarch Catholicos Gregory the Parthian (also known as "Saint illuminator").According to historian Igor Kuznetsov, this "determined the Armenian Apostolic Church's notion of its superiority to the Church of Caucasian Albania". Although there exists a report by Movses Kaghankatvatsi himself regarding the construction of a single church by one St. Elisæus in Albania "before in Armenia", it is safe to say that any ecclesiastical and naturally religious architectural activity in Albania past the royal conversion is linked to Armenia and the Armenian Church.

 

AND finally, lest we forget the Albanian or Udi alphabet, which according to Movses Kaghankatvatsi was created by the saint-of-all-scripts Mesrob Mashtots, credited with creating the Armenian and Georgian alphabets.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/12/Mat142rk.jpg

 

The MS No. 7117 Manuscript from Matenadaran, an Armenian language manual from the 15th century. Note the caption in the middle reading "Aluanits girn e/Աղվանից գիրն է/this is the Albanic(Albanian) script

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Caucasian_albanian_stone_azerbaijan_mingechaur2.jpg

 

A display of Caucasian Albanian art. Notice the script on top, the familiar 'double-bird' motif and the overall structure that resembles typical Armenian gravestones.

 

Additional reading:

 

"Classical Armenian culture: influences and creativity" by Thomas J. Samuelian (Contains a chapter titled 'ETHNO-HISTORY AND THE ARMENIAN INFLUENCE UPON THE CAUCASIAN ALBANIANS', unfortunately not shared online)

 

 

 

 

 

Now I ask of you all...as Armat said, should we really be sitting back and and should we keep neglecting, on and ON?

 

 

 

 

 

*Seemingly, a debate continues around the identity and time of the author.The first historian to mention this author is Mkhitar Gosh, referring to him as Movses Daskhurantsi/Մովսես Դասխուրանցի, a name that, according to Heritage , does not appear anywhere else. Although the work explains this thoroughly, further, in depth analysis is welcome.

[Zartonk]

Նախ եկէք համաձայնուենք, որ Ալբանականը (Աղուանական) ոչ ադրբէջանական է, ոչ թուրքական, ոչ էլ իրանական

 

Ազնիվ իմանսութիւն-վերջացավ գնաց:

[Zartonk]

Կայ երկու Աղուանք, հինը՝ աղուանական (հիւսիս արեւելքում, Կուրից այն կողմ), եւ նորը՝ Հայաստանի Արցախ եւ Ուտիք նահանգներին միացած, հայկական, Կուրից այս կողմ: Պարսիկ թագաւորը Աղուանքին միացրել է հայկական երկու նահանգ, Աղուանից եկեղեցին էլ հաստատուել է հայկական նահանգներում՝ Արցախում, որպէս ապահով երկիր: «Աղուանքը» կամ Հայոց Արեւելից կողմը, հայկական երկիր է եղել, հայաբնակ, հայախօս, հայկական:

Գանձասարն էր վերջին նստավայրը. Ռուսները միացրին Էջմիածնին:

 

նույն պէս նորից: Շնորհակալ:

[Armat]

նույն պէս նորից: Շնորհակալ:

Thanks for you post!

Here is why this is important

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXH8sU1bdiQ&feature=player_embedded

They even claim Armenian monuments in Armenia as furkish.We seriously need to counteract academically on all fronts.Just winning the war for now is not enough.As matter of fact we let lot of negative UN resolutions pass against Armenia because we did not take them seriously.We must take everything seriously.When this imbeciles publish BS and distribute in Germany,west then its a information victory for them.

Armenian government seriously should start building web sites,publish books regarding our heritage in the region.We stood still while these fking imbeciles were distroying Naxijavani cemetery.We have been losing on information war for some time like even on genocide now they got their "side" of the story.WTF There is no two side to genocide.Example of incompetence...Sorry guys I am pissed off.

[Zartonk]

1.- I don’t know which came first, who copied from whom. the Armenian appellation of Aghvan/Աղուան, Աղվան is a direct transliteration of the Latin Alban where the L becomes GH/Ղ and the B becomes V/Վ as in Bahram /Vahram/Վահրամ** , which in further russification (no H in Cyrillic/Russian,, they either change it to G or drop it altogether as I Agobian), That is how Vahram becomes BaGram as in Bagramian. Hambar-tsoum becomes Gambar(ov).

This is not unique to Armenian. See how Ibn Sina, the famous Arab/Persian? physician turns to AVicenna in Greek and Latin.

 

Արփա Հայոց,

 

As with any conjunct morpheme between Armenian and the Latinate languages (read Greek first)or any two tongues, the origination is etymologically open-ended, in other words it is plausible that the root of the phrase may occur is mutually on either end, regardless of where a phrase is first chronicled. On the other side of the same coin,though, we should keep in mind that for the time beiing and following 'Aran', the earliest preserved form of Aghvank<>Alban in any way rests with Armenian.

[Zartonk]

Thanks for you post!

Here is why this is important

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXH8sU1bdiQ&feature=player_embedded

They even claim Armenian monuments in Armenia as furkish.We seriously need to counteract academically on all fronts.Just winning the war for now is not enough.As matter of fact we let lot of negative UN resolutions pass against Armenia because we did not take them seriously.We must take everything seriously.When this imbeciles publish BS and distribute in Germany,west then its a information victory for them.

Armenian government seriously should start building web sites,publish books regarding our heritage in the region.We stood still while these fking imbeciles were distroying Naxijavani cemetery.We have been losing on information war for some time like even on genocide now they got their "side" of the story.WTF There is no two side to genocide.Example of incompetence...Sorry guys I am pissed off.

 

Armat jan,

 

You have your finger EXACTLY on the pulse of the problem: Information. This truly is a battle of bits and bytes.

 

I think that prior to devising an official legal document for our cause -something which, I fully believe, is a must at this point-, we need to find a way to organize the will to specifically preserve and conserve the legacy of Artsakh. The vessel for this expedition may just be the miraculous medium named the Internet. After organizing ourselves, we can easily (very easily, and cost effectively) digitize the history and facts surrounding Eastern Armenia proper and make them available FOR FREE.

 

For the lack of a better term, we need to get both our asses out of the mud. Ցեխը սարեց մեզ:

[Armat]

Armat jan,

 

You have your finger EXACTLY on the pulse of the problem: Information. This truly is a battle of bits and bytes.

 

I think that prior to devising an official legal document for our cause -something which, I fully believe, is a must at this point-, we need to find a way to organize the will to specifically preserve and conserve the legacy of Artsakh. The vessel for this expedition may just be the miraculous medium named the Internet. After organizing ourselves, we can easily (very easily, and cost effectively) digitize the history and facts surrounding Eastern Armenia proper and make them available FOR FREE.

 

For the lack of a better term, we need to get both our asses out of the mud. Ցեխը սարեց մեզ:

 

Sadly look what I found today

http://www.artsakh.com/

Furks took the name and published a site parading their propaganda.Clever that they took Artsakh beautiful domain name belongs to furks now

We are falling behind

[Zartonk]

Sadly look what I found today

http://www.artsakh.com/

Furks took the name and published a site parading their propaganda.Clever that they took Artsakh beautiful domain name belongs to furks now

We are falling behind

 

Վա՛յ քեզ բան...

 

Դէ համեցեք:

 

When are we going too realize that they WILL desperately work night and day to propagandize? I mean artsakh of all domains?!!

Edited December 1, 2009 by Zartonk

[Zartonk]

How about it Hyeforum? Should we start work on an Artsakh-specific project..?

[Armat]

How about it Hyeforum? Should we start work on an Artsakh-specific project..?

I have dreamweaver and I can easily put together nice professional looking site.These days hosting site is peanuts.I found one yesterday with 3.50 a month-nothing.

What I need is content.

Comprehensive history showing logical progression of events backed by references.

Armenian Architecture photos,Armenian towns photos,Villages in the field working.Armenians praying together basically giving overall reality how NK is.

[Arpa]

Sadly look what I found today

http://www.artsakh.com/

Furks took the name and published a site parading their propaganda.Clever that they took Artsakh beautiful domain name belongs to furks now

We are falling behind

 

Dear Armat, I did not quite understand your concern. Are you saying that the site was hijacked, or that those dogs are responding to it?

This is a fairly recent picture (July 2000) of the Kish Church, in Sheki region of Azerbaijan, the oldest church in all of Caucasus, possibly dating back to the I-II century A.D. It was the seating of Caucasian Albania's Gis (Kish) episcopate, founded by St. Yelyses, which proves that Albanians were the first Christians in the Caucasus. It is also important to note that even the most ardent Armenian nationalists stop short of including Sheki region as part of Armenia in their various maps.

Look above where it says - “the “first Christians” were the Albanians.

If it is so. SO WHAT!!!???

The first "jesuits" , followers of Jesus,the word "Christian" was not yet coined, were jews, the likes of the Virgin Mary, Joseph, Mary Mgdalene St. Peter and St. Paul. Then why the Vatican is not in telaviv? Where is their Catholicosate? And where is the catholicsate, the Christian Cathedral in Baku?

Do the jews open their gatherings with the “ Hayr Mer” or did those “first Christian Albanians” ope their pataraks with “ellehu-ekber” ? If the first Cucasian Christians were “albanians” then why do mehmet alievs, or was it ali mehmetiev go to mecca in pilgrimage rather than to Ejmiatsin or the Vatican?

First they were pagans, then they became Christians, the muslims… what is next? “jewhovah’s witnesses“ ?

Only when they learn how to reattach that extra skin to their “you know whats”.

 

They don’t deserve serious response, only RIDICULE!!!

Edited December 2, 2009 by Arpa
Arpa please control yuorself.

[Armat]

Arpa

I was referring to the site as a propaganda vehicle by the Furks. If you read the quotes they are all anti-Armenian.

 

"The Karabakh region of Azerbaijan has been in the center of groundless claims by the Republic of Armenia and its nationalist government. Armenians have used every argument to lay claims and "prove" that Karabakh -- or as they ironically refer to as Artsakh -- really belongs to them. From legal to economic, cultural to those raising pity, none approach the historic claims in terms of the degree of falsifications, propaganda and violence. Despite years of denial of Azerbaijani legitimacy over Karabakh and trying to prove otherwise to the world, even some Armenian propaganda sources, such as the "Armenian genocide website," admit, albeit with usual reservations and gross misinterpretations, in the "Karabagh as a Distinct Entity: Historical and Pre-Soviet Status" article that:"

 

Example above.There are many others

[Zartonk]

Dear Armat, I did not quite understand your concern. Are you saying that the site was hijacked, or that those dogs are responding to it?

 

Look above where it says - “the “first Christians” were the Albanians.

If it is so. SO WHAT!!!???

The first "jesuits" , followers of Jesus,the word "Christian" was not yet coined, were jews, the likes of the Virgin Mary, Joseph, Mary Mgdalene St. Peter and St. Paul. Then why the Vatican is not in telaviv? Where is their Catholicosate? And where is the catholicsate, the Christian Cathedral in Baku?

Do the jews open their gatherings with the “ Hayr Mer” or did those “first Christian Albanians” ope their pataraks with “ellehu-ekber” ? If the first Cucasian Christians were “albanians” then why do mehmet alievs, or was it ali mehmetiev go to mecca in pilgrimage rather than to Ejmiatsin or the Vatican?

First they were pagans, then they became Christians, the muslims… what is next? “jewhovah’s witnesses“ ?

Only when they learn how to reattach that extra skin to their “you know whats”.

 

They don’t deserve serious response, only RIDICULE!!!

 

 

Arpa,unfortunately ridicule will not suffice. YOU may see the idiocy in this, but to the unfamiliar reader it might as well be gospel truth. First they claim every Christian monument in Artsakh, next they will call Etchmiadzin an ancient Albanian church (read Azeri, reread Turkic) occupied and hijacked by newcomers, and finally, they will declare every single piece of rock with a scratch in it as an artifact of the native Azeri people.

 

The last thing we need to do is just let their garbage be.

[Zartonk]

AZERBAIJAN DISTORTS HISTORICAL FACTS. THE TECHNIQUES OF AZERBAIJANI PROPAGANDA

 

*

 

A great number of books in several languages published under the patronage of Azerbaijani Foreign Ministry for agitational reasons were distributed freely to people within Frankfurt Fair a couple of months ago. Azerbaijanis publish a book under the state patronage with a cover illustrated by the only Pagan Temple of Armenia ''Garni'' (Garni, Armenia The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Archaeology. Timothy Darvill. Oxford University Press, 2008), Amberd fortress, it's the name given to the 7th century Armenian fortress located on the slopes of Mount Aragats in the province of Aragatsotn, Armenia, (http://www.armenica.org/cgi-bin/armenica.cgi?=2=bc=1====bcz0000) or Persian Мosque in capital of Armenia Yerevan: all these have nothing common with Azerbaijan, - Samvel Karapetyan , the head of the organization of the Research on Armenian Architecture says with a dismay, then goes on. The Etchmiadzin Cathedral, which is the oldest church in the world built in 4th century in the town of Ejmiatsin, Armenia, when Armenia was the only country in the world the state religion of which was Christianity, is presented as a Turkish-Armenian Church on the cover of the book published by Azerbaijanis, the same with Gandzasar monastery which is presented as Turkish-Albanian. While Gandzasar is a 13th century Armenian monastery situated in the Mardakert region of Nagorno-Karabakh. The monastery was damaged during an Azerbaijani bombing raid in 1991, in which the house of the Father Superior was destroyed, Gandzasar is actively functioning today as a monastery of the Armenian Apostolic Church. (http://www.gandzasar.com/) The Azerbaijanis books with Historical falsifications are even translated into French and English. The most ridiculous thing is that while propagating under the state patronage Azeris do it amateurishly and superficially bringing false factors and motivations. Imagine, all the names of settlements are those which were till 20-30-s in the mentioned books. Moreover, no hint at the current Republic of Armenia is fixed. Instead, Western Azerbaijan is mentioned which is the part of the book as well:The monuments of Western Azerbaijan (/Les Monuments Azerbaijan d'Ouest/). In case with our well-known Noravank (which is a 13th century Armenian Apostolic Church monastery, located 122 km to southeast from capital of Armenia Yerevan) its described as an Oghuz Turkish monument of the 13th century in Amaghu village, - S. Karapetyan says. Acting in this way, the falsificators totally exclude the root Armenia from historical documentaries and evidences. Any remark of Armenia is quoted in these works. According to S. Karapetyan Azerbaijani experts have brought out an agitational trick for the recent 50-60 years. They launched a campaign of publishing false information, facts and motivations, created made-up stories through foreign scientists purposefully in order to cite their own spread disinformation after decades. In the result they make a whole history - whether this or that scientist has written about it? The same trick has been used with Armenian Khachqars (Cross-Stones). Azerbaijanis insist Khachqars are originated from Caucasian Albanians and belong to them. In this regard Karapetyan says that Azerbaijanis has begun the appropriation of the Christian culture alongside with the distortion of the history in 1960s. How did it happen that You existing for so long, change your nation name once in every 100 years, that only from 1960s it dawned upon you that the mentioned culture belonged to you and why havent you state about that earlier. We knew about those monuments from the day of their creation, as they had been standing on this land for centuries, and now just awaken you appropriate all these to you. Its not normal What refers to Western Azerbaijan, its circulation is another trick. Over the fact that our historical monuments are totally ascribed to Azerbaijan in most Azerbaijani websites S. Karapetyan remarked the following. If anything deals with current Armenia they write Western Azerbaijan. After 40 years we will discover more than 100 books proving that we are living not in historical Armenia but in Western Azerbaijan. Azerbaijanis are working out the Albanian thesis in the same way.They permanently insist that cross-stones are of Albanian origin. The fact is absolutely contradicting to the logic. Whether Albanians lived in Nakhijevan, in Tiflis? Whether Albans lived anywhere? What about the numerous Armenian inscriptions speaking of the opposite. Are you able to eliminate them? Karapetyan asks rhetorically. The Real History of Azerbaijan Armenia was to mark the 90th anniversary of Azerbaijan, - Samvel Karapetyan insists. Different authors as Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, French, English has made their past and future maps for centuries mentioning such notions as Armenia minor and Armenia major. Not us but just those authors has named this land Great and Small Armenia. No European has ever used Azerbaijan regarding to any of these maps, - Samvel Karapetyan, the head of the organization of the Research on Armenian Architecture says. So lets state that Azerbaijan is the name of Atrpatakan region of Northern Persia with a center of Tabriz. The word Azerbaijan has first been used in the region from 1918. Annexing a part from our motherland and naming it after a region from a neighboring state they have established a state. More, they have changed their alphabet for three times in a century. They used to write in Arabic Turkish till the Soviet period, then used Cyrillic Azerbaijani and at last in 1991 chose Latin Turkish. It is not a century passed since the name Azerbaijan is stuck to this land. Last year I suggested to mark the 90th anniversary of Azerbaijans foundation to show that its only 90 years (1918-2008) your state have existed in this land. Why not? Marking that anniversary we would have informed the world about the real age of Azerbaijan. Source Aravot daily

[Zartonk]

Once again, this is an official publication of the government of Azerbaijan, and do continue below if your stomach allows you.

 

'History' of Azerbaijan

[Yervant1]

MSU: AZERBAIJAN GIVES A FALSE COLOR TO HISTORY; ARMENIA DOESN'T

 

Aysor

Dec 3 2009

Armenia

 

To determine how impartial text-books are in use at the colleges

of the former soviet republics, the specialists of the Moscow State

University have conducted a survey. An investigation showed that only

Armenia and Belarus have unbiased view on history while others give

a false color to it.

 

Results of the survey of the text-books were released by the New

Region - Moscow edition.

 

It was found out that almost all the latter-day historians set down

an ancient origin to their peoples as well as some extra mission.

 

"It sometimes sounds like a joke, or an anecdote. The Balts,

for example, are studying the ethnicity of the ancient man while

Azerbaijani scientists say have common origin with the Sumerians,"

said in paper.

 

Besides, this 'new history' says whom the certain territories belong

to. "Azerbaijani text-books say Armenia was founded on Georgian land.

 

Georgian text-books, in its turn, say some Russian, Turkish and

Azerbaijani territories are Georgian in origin.

 

The Ukrainian text-books cover no less interesting "facts'. They say,

the Ukrainians have founded Rome and Troy, and all world languages have

its origin in grand-Ukrainian. Among other things is the view on the

reasons and all of the World War II. Text-books of Georgia, Ukraine,

Moldova, and the Baltic states say that exactly Molotov-Ribbentrop

Pact caused the war while both USSR and Germany are to blame for this.

 

The enemy image has been added to everything else: Russia in

these books is a centuries-old oppressor, colonialist, robber,

freedom-killer, and so on.

 

"We have been surprised when studied these text-books," said Assistant

Professor of National History Department of the Moscow State

University, Andrey Shadrin. "We knew the books had nationalistic

handling but the surprise was that this only was a covering party

for the real ideology of the ruling elites of these states. The

books contain the readings on the 'sovereignty and independence -

the most important and sacred values' while the idea is that these

states' ideology is to find a patron in exchange for independence

and national dignity."

[Armat]

Look guys I will pay the domain name, site hosting, and I can design nice attractive looking site but I need help in content. I can't do it alone.

It does not have to be complex site.It can start with few pages and overtime grow.

If you guys can put together articulate history of Artsakh that may be enough.

 

I think its extremely important to mention what Azeris did in Naxijevan and Naxijevan's history as well because that reality is why we Armenians can't trust the Furks.

Anyway if you can help then instead of getting pissed we can combat these imbeciles.

[Zartonk]

Look guys I will pay the domain name, site hosting, and I can design nice attractive looking site but I need help in content. I can't do it alone.

It does not have to be complex site.It can start with few pages and overtime grow.

If you guys can put together articulate history of Artsakh that may be enough.

 

I think its extremely important to mention what Azeris did in Naxijevan and Naxijevan's history as well because that reality is why we Armenians can't trust the Furks.

Anyway if you can help then instead of getting pissed we can combat these imbeciles.

 

You got my word on it Armat. What we can do is have anyone interested in this go through our Artsakh sub-forum archive and pick relevant and affirmative information, then we'll present it and eventually add it to the side.

 

What will the domain be BTW?