Poet

[Arpa]

What is the Armenian word for "poet/poem/poetry"?

What is the Armenian word for "laureate"?

Who is our own POET LAUREATE?

 

Go to the subject topic of "literature" and subtopic "poetry.

Is it Angel4 or Sulamita or ...?

 

I was torn between posting this in the Literature/Poetry section or, but I decided in the Language since there will be followups to be sure.

 

Come to think of it.

What is the origin of the English "poet/poem/poesy/poetry?

I don't know. I have not looked it up....yet.

Does it have anything to do with "foot"?

Edited August 13, 2004 by Arpa

[nairi]

A little illegal, but this is what I got for POET as primary definition in the Oxford English Dictionary:

 

Etymology: [Forms: 4-5 poyete, 4-6 poete, 5 poiet, poyte, 5-6 poite, poiett, poyet, 4- poet. [ME. poete, poyete, a. OF. poete (12th c. in Hatz.-Darm.), mod.F. poète, ad. L. pota (Plaut.), ad. Gr. , early variant of maker, author, poet (cf. MAKER 5), f. , to make, create, produce. (An early Gr. word in L.; if introduced at a later period, the form would have been pta.)] 

 

    1. a. One who composes poetry; a writer of poems; an author who writes in verse. (The ordinary current use; but now usually implying more or less of the sense of c.)

 

First used in English:  a1300 Cursor Mundi. 8531 (Cott.) Homer e poet [v.r. poete], at was sa rijf, Liued in is king dauid lijf.

 

POEM:

 

EtymologyAlso 6-7 poeme. [a. F. poème (in Oresme 14th c.), ad. L. poma (in Plautus), a. Gr. (4th c. B.C.), early variant of , thing made or created, work, fiction, poetical work, f. (early variant ) to make. (If had been the form introduced, the L. would have been pma.)

The word poem was app. not in use till about the middle of the 16th c.; the sense was previously, from 14th c., expressed by POESY, sense 2.] 

 

    1. a. ‘The work of a poet, a metrical composition’ (Johnson); ‘a work in verse’ (Littré); a composition of words expressing facts, thoughts, or feelings in poetical form; a piece of poetry.

  In addition to the metrical or verse form, critics have generally held that in order to deserve the name of ‘poem’, the theme and its treatment must possess qualities which raise it above the level of ordinary prose. Cf. quots. 1575, 1689, 1841, and see POETRY.

 

First used in English:  1548 ELYOT Dict., Poema..a poetes inuencion, a poeme [ed. 1538 Poema..a poetes warke].

 

POETRY:

 

Forms: 4-7 poetrie, 5 -trye, -terye, 6 Sc. poyetrie, 5- poetry. [ME. = OF. poetrie, poeterie (13-14th c.), old It. poetría (Florio); ad. late and med.L. poetra, f. pota poet.

  Poetria occurs in a scholium on Horace Epist. II. i. 103, written (according to O. Keller, Pseudacro) c 650, perh. in North Italy, and preserved in MSS. of 10th c.; also in 9th or 10th c. MSS. of Martianus Capella. It is used as the title of treatises on the art of poetry, esp. the Nova Poetria of Gaufrei de Vinsauf (Galfridus de Vino Salvo, also called Galfridus Anglicus) about or soon after 1200; and in various works of the 13th c., as the Græcismus of Eberhardus Bethuniensis c 1212 (‘Arte poetria fungor dum fingo poema’), the translation of Averroes' paraphrase of Aristotle's Poetics by Hermannus Alemannus c 1260, and the Catholicon of Joannes de Janua, 1286 (‘a poeta, poeticus, et hæc poetria ars poetica’). (I. Bywater.) The relation of the word to L. potria, Gr. , poetess, is not clear; but, from its antiquity, its formative suffix cannot be identified with F. -erie, Eng. -ery, -ry, in such words as chirurgery, drollery, bigotry, mimicry. Our earliest English examples are from Chaucer, to whom the Nova Poetria of Galfridus was well known, as he makes the Nun's Priest refer to it in his Tale (l. 527) and apostrophize the author as ‘O Gaufred deere Maister souerayn’.] 

 

    I. In obsolete senses.

 

    1. A rendering of med.L. poetra in sense of an ars poetica or treatise on the art of poetry. Obs.

 

  1447 O. BOKENHAM Seyntys Introd. (Roxb.) 3 Galfridus Anglicus in hys newe poetrye.

 

 

    2. Applied to imaginative or creative literature in general; fable, fiction: cf. POET n. 1b. Obs.

 

  c1384 CHAUCER H. Fame II. 493 When thou redest poetrie How goddes gonne stellifye Briddes fisshe best.

 

 

A few Armenian words in another post.

[Arpa]

>

>    Nairi: 1. a. ‘The work of a poet, a metrical composition’ (Johnson); ‘a work in verse’ (Littré); a composition of words expressing facts, thoughts, or feelings in poetical form; a piece of poetry.

>  In addition to the metrical..... Cf. quots. 1575, 1689, 1841, and see POETRY.

Chapatso?? Measured?? Metrical??

Arpa: Does it have anything to do with "foot"?

 

When I asked the above question I was referring to the "pot" component of "poet" but more so to the Armenian word for poetry -"otanavor/votanavor", i.e. "footed". You will note that the Armenian word "vot" is common with the Latin "pod/ped" and the English "foot".

 

Next, some of the words we use to mean poet/poetry, icluding the most pervasive one "banasteghts" (wordmonger/word creator)which has nothing to do with poetry.

[nairi]

I thought about "votanavor" when you said vot. Which still makes sense: we count in feet Problem is, votanavor means poem. What do you call a writer of votanavors?

 

And there are other words for poet: poet to begin with , qertogh, and another one I came across not so long ago but can't find anymore...

[Arpa]

I thought about "votanavor" when you said vot. Which still makes sense: we count in feet Problem is, votanavor means poem. What do you call a writer of votanavors?

 

And there are other words for poet: poet to begin with , qertogh, and another one I came across not so long ago but can't find anymore...

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Banasteghts: Poet, qerthogh, taghergu, qnarergu, ergich, musaneri ordi, parrnastsi, banahyus, banarar, bangyut, ergasats, ergasan, hangergu, sherasats, steghts bani.

 

Banasteghtsutyun:Qnarergutyun, taghergutyun, chapatso, votanavor, qerthutyun, steghtsabanutyun, hangergutyun, bararutyun, qertvats(q), qerthoghutyun, banahyusutyun

 

Let's take each of these words and see exactly what they mean.

In the meantime literally "qerthogh" will be the closest to "poet" as the latter is from the Greek "poiein" to make. "qerthel/qerthogh " is to scratch, to (remove) skin, to chip away. Imagine a piece of crude stone, the poet, the sculptor in this case chipping away, removing parts and ending up with a poerty such as the Statue of David.

Even if some may have suggested that "qerthel" may be from the Persian "kerdan", to build as in Stepanakert, you will see the "qe" and the"tho" in qerthel and "ken" and da in kerdel.

Two other words that I did not know-hangathoukh, and banathoukh are used pejoratively, the latter meaning word-cooker and the former; rhyme-cooker. Probably used to describe bad poets, which would be like the word I used above as a translation to banasteghts; word-mongerer.

I already have my favorites.

How about you?

[Arpa]

WOW!!

Nairi, look what you've done!

When I improvised on "qerthogh" and I used the allegory of the sculptor...

(Do you have access to Daniel Varuzhan's "Nemesis"? It is huge)

As an after thought I decided to see if Daniel had used the words "qerthogh" and "banasteghts" . Of course he has on many occasions but the way it is used in the above poem just floored me.

 

Opening lines:

 

Qerthoghn hska, mrrkavars, hrachoui,

Nuoirakan arouestanotsn ir mtav...

....

Zangouats@ ayd aparazh m'er barbaros...

...

Vosgeghen mourj@ apin mej

....

Ev qandakets, qandakets....

....

Mourj@ dzerqin banasteghtsn yaghtakan....

 

And in closing:

 

K'ertha kiyna ardzanin tak qnatsogh

Qandakagordz banasteghtsin jaktin vra....

 

Just as Daniel uses the allegory of a sculptor as poet, it can be used in reverse and describe the poet as a sculptor who takes a glob of words and whittle away to produce a piece of art. In fact I this picture in mind when I described "qerthel" in the above post as "chipping away".

Edited September 29, 2004 by Arpa

[nairi]

Nice!!!! Thanks!

[Harut]

Բանաստեղծություն [banasteghtsutyun] has much deeper meaning, just like the root of the word, բան [ban], does. so, բանաստեղծ [banasteghts] is not just a poet, but also, a worker, philosopher, sculpter, etc...

all in all, it has possitive meaning, meaning, it is used to describe something (or something) worthwhile, valuable, of high class. just like բանաստեղծություն [banasteghtsutyun] is used to descibe a good, valueable poem, in contrast with ոտանավոր [votanavor], which is used to descibe any rymic saying (such as ծիտիկ, ծիտիկ մոտ արի, քեզ տամ ցորեն ու գարի).

 

btw, it armenian literature we also have a unique genre called, արձակ բանաստեղծություն [ardzak banasteghtsutyun].

 

as far as քերթել, քերթող [qertel, qertogh] is conserned, and this is just a guess and how i personally perceive the word, it has more scientific connotation, while բանաստեղծել, բանաստեղծ [banasteghtsel, banasteghts] has more artistic meaning. that is, for one to քերթել [qertel], or be called քերթող [qertogh] he has to have knowledge, has to have done reseach in the topic. as such, we have a քերթողահայր [qertoghahayr] Մովսես Խորենացի [Movses Xorenatsi], the first քերթող [qertogh]. note, not Մեսրոպ Մաշտոց [Mesrop Mashtots], who i think is the first բանաստեղծ [banasteghts].

 

and as Arpa mentioned, note mix it with կերտել [kertel], which i suspect have some connection.

[Arpa]

Tgha anun'd (YJ)Haruthyun

Hal, hala ninnoye!

Inchu k'anes charuthyun?

Hala, hala, hala ninnoye!

 

Anybody familiar with that silly song?

 

We will come to that under another topic.

 

Harut!

I am sure you got the gist of my original post, and I am sure you know about my "allergy" about the unnecessarily (Wow! that was a mouthful.) longer words than necessary. Simply put, my aim was to find a short and sweet Armenian word for "poem/poetry".

I'll tell you a secret! :)

"banasteghtsutyun" or even my suggestion ? "banasteteghtsanq" is not the cure.

 

Your full name, Haruthyun is composed (note that word) of only three syllables yet you choose to shorten it to two. Can I suggest that shorten even more to: Haro"?? :)

 

Adding a "uthyun" to a n adjective or a verb does not make a noun.

 

Shall we add an "uthyun" to "erkayna-khmora-klora-tsak" to make a noun like "erkayna-khmora-klora-tsak-uthyun"?? :)

 

The "uthyun" ending is the most IGNORANT way of armenianizing(?) a word. I mean, it is for those who don't know the language good enough. reread my anecdote about the "starving Armenian boys in a Paris restaurant.

 

I cannot be that serious .

Let's go to another subject topic and see if we can improvise; "Tgha anun'd Haruthyun...."

Does anyone know that silly game?

Like; "Tgha, anun'd Sargis, Salorin tak@ parkis." Actually, the way we used to play it was "Salorin tak@ satkis". Not nice!!

 

Why is it that we shorten "automobile" to "auto" but to choose to lengthen simple, basic, native Armenian words by unnecessarilty adding "uthyun"?? !!

 

There must be a way!!

[nairi]

Harut, very interesting and thank you!

 

Arpa, -utyun/-um makes abstract nouns as you know. You can't make a gortsiq (tool) into -utyun. I don't see what's wrong with it, esp. if you take into consideration that most (if not all) languages can make endless words, if only through reiteration. Think of English: anti-anti-anti-anti-anti-politics

 

Difficult to make a meaning out of it, but correct nevertheless. Same with Armenian. Take any affix and multiply it countless numbers of time and you have the longest word in the world.

 

Here's a Dutch word for you: hottetottententententoonstellingen

 

And it's not even the longest!!!!!!!!! I know where you're getting at though. Short words ARE more convenient at the end of the day, but I don't mind a few long ones in between either. Remember my thread on long Armenian words? I'll tell you this much: most Armenian words don't exceed four syllables. That's not too bad, is it?

 

Edit: Oh and at least we're not stuck with hyphens or no hyphens like in English! We can just stick four separate words together and form a new one! Although there are other rules, but still.. Horeghborakin What other language can come up with that?!

Edited October 9, 2004 by nairi

[Harut]

i oppose to any changes that will take away the ություն [utyun] ending. because then, technically i would become Հարում [Harum], which i don't like.

 

of course kidding here.