AnoushBabyGirl1 Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Why do people (especially Turks) always say that Armenians and Greeks have similar cultures to the Turkish one? They always bring this up in a discussion about genocide, like it somehow changes the fact or makes it like an internal struggle/'civil war' instead of an attempt to wipe out a people. Is it because they wnat to be like us or do they really think the cultures are similar? I understand we do have some things in common, but we lived under their rule and helped build their country, how could we not? They ate our food, listened to our music, ect. that's why there are so many things in common. Furthermore, how do we know that food with Turkish names like 'baklava' and dolma didn't come from Greece who had a much more civilized culture than the Turks? Yes, I know that those are Turkish words, but so what, the Turks applied their language to everything they could and of course stole words also. I don't understand why people assume that things like paklava came from Turkey anyway, like a group of traveling barbarians would invent a food that required so much preparation. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nakharar Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Don't worry they don't believe it themselves (nor does anyone else for that matter). It's part of the game that Turks have been playing and playing it well. Those examples will give the Turks the semblance of the benevolent and congenial side and endear them to unwitting third parties. But granted the discourse that the Turks have been following is much more intelligent than that of the Armenians. They don't engage in diatribes when they have to convince others of their inculpability. The civil war example is a clever one. It serves their purpose very well in convincing others that the Ottoman Empire in its dying days was fighting for its survival and in light of advancing Russian armies they had to take the 'unfortunate' but drastic action of 'relocating' the Armenian population, because they were regarded as a potential fifth column. They even go as far as portraying Talaat's orders for the deportation as a humanitarian act since it only (!) included the Armenian Apostolic community and excluded all those Armenians from Istanbul and Ismir. Which is false of course. I guess they expect us to thank them. Another myth the Turks love to use is that of the Turkish-Armenian (or Greek) brotherhood. This in itself is highly unlikely where in the Millet system and a set religious hiearchy placing the Christian communities at an inferior status there was minium interaction and sympathy between these groups. However there was extensive cultural interaction between all these groups from all sides. My mum only cooks Haigagan dolma and Baklava is neither Greek or Armenian. All these syrupy sweets originate either from Lebanon or Syria. Even though dolma might have a Turkish meaning I don't think that the Turkish nomads in Central Asia ate rice filling wrapped in vineleaves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Very well said Nakharar! I just want to add something Gamavor's way: "The best turk, is the dead turk!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikephoros_Phokas Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 (edited) ... "The principle of Ottoman common law created a political dichomoty of superordinate and subordinate status. The Muslims, belonging to the umma, the politically organized community of believers, were entitled to remain the nation of overlords. Non-Muslims were relegated to the status of tolerated infidels. ... While promising liberty, justice and equality for all Ottoman subjects, they[the Young Turk Ittihadists] vowed to preserve the superodinate-subordinate dichotomy. That vow was publicly proclaimed through Tanin, the editor quasi-official publication of the Ittihad party. Hüseyin Cahid, its editor, declared in an editoral that irrespective of the final outcome of the nationality conflict in Turkey, "the Turkish nation is and will remain the ruling nation."[8] ... [8] Tanin, (Istanbul), October 25, 1908. Dadrian, Vahakn N., "The History of the Armenian Genocide: Ethnic Conflict from the Balkans to Anatolia to the Caucasus," (Providence, Rhode Island, and Oxford: Berghan Books, 1995), 5. When Turks say they want peace and use the culture in common subterfuge, who knows for sure what they mean, but given the history it is obvious that their model for Turkish-Armenian and Turkish-Greek relations carries over the Islamic principle of dhimmitude and an unequal relationship as Dadrian said above, where guess who is at the top of the hierarchy and the Christians are subordinates. If two Armenians are into a dispute over one Armenian cheating on another's spouse, do you expect the conflict to be resolved when one says: "Wait, we are both Armenians our culture is so similar." This solves nothing for a microcosm like this example and it will definitely solve nothing in a more complex macrocosm of two nations in conflict. In Dadrian's work cited above he really hammers in the point well that the Turkish authorities were stalling, and temporizing in the Eastern Question and Armenian Question doing nothing to reach a true solution, either escalating the conflict when they had the opportunity or keeping it in limbo. This cultural similarity, friendship subterfuge is nothing other than more of the same of trying to appear accomodating and peaceable without doing anything of substance to be accomodating. Their claims of wanting peace are superceded by their stronger desire of wanting an unequal, inferior relationship to be the role for Christians to play in relation to muslim Turks. A brutally honest approach from the average Turk would sound like this:"If Turks and Armenians are to have peace you must put the Armenian genocide propaganda industry out of business and stop hostility against our Azeri brothers, Armenians of Artsakh need to lay down their arms. If you want peace you must be our dhimmis, do you think you are equal to a Turk?" Given the history involved it is obvious that the Armenians of Artsakh laying down their arms will portend their destruction. I do believe most of these Turks are genuine about peace within the frame of the Turkish mentality(and this mentality entails and this cannot be stressed enough, inequality), but at what price? Accepting the Turkish historiographic line, leaving Armenians of Artsakh disarmed and at the mercy of Azeris? Who on the Armenian side would pay such a price for the well known Turkish brand of peace, the peace of being unarmed, unequal, vulnerable dhimmis relying on the mercy of Turkic authorities who revel in cruelty? Edited November 24, 2003 by Nikephoros_Phokas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnoushBabyGirl1 Posted November 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2003 Thank you, for all of your responses. "Another myth the Turks love to use is that of the Turkish-Armenian (or Greek) brotherhood. This in itself is highly unlikely where in the Millet system and a set religious hiearchy placing the Christian communities at an inferior status there was minium interaction and sympathy between these groups." "A brutally honest approach from the average Turk would sound like this:"If Turks and Armenians are to have peace you must put the Armenian genocide propaganda industry out of business and stop hostility against our Azeri brothers, Armenians of Artsakh need to lay down their arms. If you want peace you must be our dhimmis, do you think you are equal to a Turk?"" Exactly. Well said Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 (edited) Because our cultures ARE similar. Accepting the cultural similarities between us (Armenians and Turks) doesn't have to compromise our stance on the genocide! And denying the differences is just plain ignorant. Furthermore, how do we know that food with Turkish names like 'baklava' and dolma didn't come from Greece who had a much more civilized culture than the Turks? How we define 'civilized' is extremely subjective, but to say one culture is more 'civilized' than another is dangerously over-simplifying what could be a valuable discourse. That doesn't do anyone any good. Edited December 2, 2003 by Khazar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 If in this case what you want to call it a Turkish culture that alone is another topic to discuss let alone the comparison to Armenian and Greek cultures, I think one has to realize baklava and dolma does not anyway reflect nor characterizes nations cultures, as for civilized? Just take a glimpse to Turkish history, which should give you an idea of what is the definition of civilized? Somehow turkey and civilized sounds like an oxymoron to me! I don’t find anything similar between Armenian and Greek in comparison with Turkish cultures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 Those examples will give the Turks the semblance of the benevolent and congenial side and endear them to unwitting third parties Sorry, I just had this image in my head of the 'evil turk', his evil laugh echoing while he rubs his hands together in glee as he fools people into thinking he's actually a good guy. Look, reducing the issue to us against evil them completely disregards the bigger issues: like, why is Turkey's nationality and cultural policies of the past still haunting it? What is it about modern Turkey that makes it so paranoid about its national identity and leads to (what some can call) the denial of its minorities' respective cultural and national identities? I think this particular type of weird nationalist tendency can even be applied to other countries like Serbia and Indonesia. They certainly have some things in common with Turkey vis-a-vis heading a multiethnic state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamavor Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 Because our cultures ARE similar. Accepting the cultural similarities between us (Armenians and Turks) doesn't have to compromise our stance on the genocide! And denying the differences is just plain ignorant. How we define 'civilized' is extremely subjective, but to say one culture is more 'civilized' than another is dangerously over-simplifying what could be a valuable discourse. That doesn't do anyone any good. 'Civilized' unlike many other vague concepts has very clear delineations drawn by the paste of develpment of humankind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Us Armenians are one of a kind.. NEVER TO BE COMPAIRED! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggyWiggy Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Armenians are one of a Kind. Well said. Why? Because we can withstand same pressure that the Jews did, without making up stupid movies to prove our cause Armenians, the most cursed of the cursed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armo77 Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Armenians are one of a Kind. Well said. Why? Because we can withstand same pressure that the Jews did, without making up stupid movies to prove our cause Armenians, the most cursed of the cursed... Man that’s BS.. We ARE one of a kind.. not even genocide can stop us! There are some ethinic groups that don’t even have a country to call thier own.. YOU should be glade we at least have that! My ancestors DIED TO keep my Armenian name and I will never compare it to other or talk down about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggyWiggy Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Hey... I know Armenians are unique... What do you think I was saying in my earlier post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormig Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Why do people (especially Turks) always say that Armenians and Greeks have similar cultures to the Turkish one?Because it is true, only perhaps "had" is better than "have" - and it would be true for some if not all. Things obviously have developed in different directions for a while for all splits. It is unfathomable what people find incomprehensible about a bunch of ethnicities living together or within close proximity to have similarities. They had to have it. Face it, Armenians of the Ottoman Empire had more similarities with the Turks in the Ottoman Empire than diasporan Armenians have with Armenians of RoA. And, no, I am not talking about food, though that, too, besides music, outlook on life (especially the comfy ones in the larger cities? I suspect), approaches to life and issues, being Near Eastern hot-heads, etc. The same can be said about a group such as the Jews, too. The differences you dwell on and over-rate were what made them the ethnicities they are/were!Armenians didn't keep to themselves - they interacted with EVERYONE, made friends with everyone. What is so disturbing about that? Within the social matrix today, Armenian Americans are similar to Mexican Americans - MTV, fast-food, the institution of "dating" and divorce being practiced as everywhere else and by everyone else, with the "I go to my church so I am Armenian and I listen to my gramps' life stories" being the differentiator. "Preserving the culture" can produce such silly results as what you see when someone like this Nakharar makes his first post on this forum, an ugly version of the idiosyncracies in My Big Fat Greek Wedding.As for Greeks, I'd be cautious there. The Greeks of Anatolia were a far cry from the beach-frequenting orgy-goers of today. But then everyone is whoever he thinks feels himself as being. It's not that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 I would pretty much agree with that. If we didn't have these cultural similarities, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But, like you said, "had" is better than "have". I would hesitate to say that our similarities are not disappearing. They are. We are becoming more different as we haved moved away from them and into new countries and acquiring new national experiences, but that's only natural. But I still think some essential cultural similarities will never go away. And of course, through all of that, the essential Armenianess remains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggyWiggy Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 Khazar...what does your name mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khazar Posted December 4, 2003 Report Share Posted December 4, 2003 The Khazar Kingdom existed from 8th-13th Century in the North Caucasus bordering the Caspian Sea and was a multi-ethnic and multi-religious state. When the kingdom collapsed, many of its Christians moved south-west, settled in Armenia and intermixed with the population. I was reading about it when I had to pick my name for this forum, so it was the first name to come into my mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewish Friend Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Armenians are one of a Kind. Well said. Why? Because we can withstand same pressure that the Jews did, without making up stupid movies to prove our cause Armenians, the most cursed of the cursed... Pass the popcorn. Love to watch dem stupid movies! Queer Nazi bastards! JF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggyWiggy Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Jewish Friend...are you calling me a Nazi? I know your kind, your kind has ruined a lot for me... Oh...and as for a "HYE"Forum...this place is full with an equal amount of Jews...so...this isnt an Armenian forum... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewish Friend Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Jewish Friend...are you calling me a Nazi? I know your kind, your kind has ruined a lot for me... Oh...and as for a "HYE"Forum...this place is full with an equal amount of Jews...so...this isnt an Armenian forum... No. I was calling the Nazi's in the movies I watch Queer Nazi Bastards. Check out my other posts. I love Armos..and in the real world..they all love me! You got me pegged wrong. I am cool, quick, and Kosher! How has a Jew ruined it for you? Point the fella out..I'll kick his butt for you! LOL JF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PiggyWiggy Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Does the name Ataturk ring a bell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewish Friend Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Does the name Ataturk ring a bell? No. If he is Jewish and gave you a hard time, point him out and I'll kick his butt! JF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 Queer Nazi bastards!First off, what you said is contradictory right there - Nazis put queer people in concentration camps too. I don't understand people who call other people queer when they don't like them. What's with that? http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs213198/dan-shakehead.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jewish Friend Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 First off, what you said is contradictory right there - Nazis put queer people in concentration camps too. I don't understand people who call other people queer when they don't like them. What's with that? http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~cs213198/dan-shakehead.gif I called them queer not gay.But o.k....well just say Nazi bastards..unless there are a few bastards here that will be offended by that too.....Lol.. Are you Seinfeld?.."What's up with that?"..lol JF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 5, 2003 Report Share Posted December 5, 2003 I called them queer not gay.But o.k....well just say Nazi bastards..unless there are a few bastards here that will be offended by that too.....Lol.. Are you Seinfeld?.."What's up with that?"..lol JF Uhhh, ok... you called them queer - but what did you mean by that? queer as in odd? I don't think odd is used as an insult anymore... Actually, I think it's petty to call people you don't agree with Nazis.. And no, I'm not a Nazi, so don't jump on me. And relax. And I've never watched Seinfeld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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