Choice

[Guest]

I want to start a new topic with a question:

If there is war between Armenia and Turkey and you are away, what would you do...

Stay away and help Armenia financially or go to Armenia and fight?

[Guest]

Navrd jan ther is no choice .

it's ether Stay away and help Armenia financially or go to Armenia or Karabagh and fight .

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by Garo (edited July 14, 2000).]

[Guest]

I think....I would....FIGHT!

[Guest]

Point of inquiry:

 

You do understand that most wars are started by politicians for political purposes, do you not? Yes, even wars fought for nationalistic purposes. Now, before everyone starts getting on my case again, lol, let me clarify.

 

All students(even amateur) of politics and history know this fact: wars are started by politicians for their own gain. Karabagh is a shining example. A good politician can use the mix of crowd and culture so skillfully as to make it seem like the war is being fought for the good of the people, when it's actually not.

 

This is not to say that wars should not be fought. Not at all. Some wars are actually worth fighting, but it all depends on who you ask. You see, if I'm from Yerevan and have absolutely no ties to karabax, I could care less if karabax is won or lost. However, if my roots go back to Meghri (as they do), then OF COURSE I care whether we give it to the Azeris or not!! For most rational people, this is the case: if they're connected to the place, they'll fight for their land, if not, they'll be dismissive of the war. In times of turmoil and upheaval, politicians can manipulate precisely these feelings and channel them into a war effort. Now, personally, if I were a man, I would never fight a war for any politician. Being a girl, I could not approve of my husband fighting in a political war. Ever. Unfortunately, the masses generally lose their powers of reason when they're told their culture and therefore their very identity is threatened. It is then up to the individual to reason rationally and come together in substantial majority to throw any politician who would spill innocent blood for their own gain out of office.

 

ayskane

gayane

[Guest]

Gayane did I understandd you right?

As far as azeris don't want Yeravan or Meghri it won't be your war?

[Guest]

Watch out Gayane, they'll lynch you!

[Guest]

Gayane, let's follow your logic.

1. Wars are started by politician, so most of'em ain't worth no fighting.

2. Only those wars are worth fighting if there is an immediate threat to your city, or the region where your ancesters come from.

Sounds like apartment patriotism. Gee, never heard such a nonsense! Let me inform you - wherever you live (or used to live)in Armenia is adjacent to another place, which in its turn is next to a region, which borders with Artsakh. If there is a war (God preserve us)regerdless of who starts it, and everybody thinks like you (God preserve us again), turks will knock (or more likely kick) your door (or your relatives' door) in no time. Let alone patriotism, wise person (which you don't seem to be one)would start warding off enemy as far away from his/her home as possible. You know, just in case retreat would be necessary. And if are able to sell your ideas to your husband (or potential husband) - poor you - you've got not a man, but a piece of brainless vegetable.

Oh, and by the way, if you're trying to sell those ridiculous and degenerating ideas here at forum, at least get the turks to pay you. Otherwise - why bother. I really hope you are not in Armenia, but somewhere in Idaho or something. 'Cause if a war starts, no cowards would be able to point at you as a source of inspiration for their treachery.

Take care, and nothing personal

[Guest]

Stand by! Lynching in progress.

[Guest]

OK....OK....

The only thing I was asking about was your choice!!!

Please no lynching....

[Guest]

According to my understanding not all wars are started by politicians, they are mostly started by people from their dissatisfaction from existing socioeconomic conditions. The war in Karabagh didn't start by politicians either, but from dissatisfaction of Karabagh Armenians from the status quo. They felt that the conditions were appropriate to bring up the status of unification of Karabagh with Armenia. However they didn't realize in the beginning that land is not gained by demand, but by blood. Karabagh wasn't given to Azerbaijan, we lost Armeno-Tartar war in 1918. If you research Armenian history from 1918 to 1920, you will notice that Dro was thrown out of Karabagh in 1919. The Genocide of Shushi Armenians was carried the same year. It was the disagreement between Dro and Andranik that led to such a disaster. In 1988 everybody thought that Stalin gave away Karabagh. Wo we were trying to correct the mistakes of a tyrant. We were too naive, when we gathered in front of Opera building, thinking that our demands will be heard. As Khrimian Hayrik said after the Congress of Berlin in 1878, "mez yerkate sherep er petk voch te txtits". So we learned our lessons, and got into national liberation struggle. People in Yerevan were standing in lines in front of Hamagumarneri Palat to become Fedayis. Then HAB (Hayots Azgayin Banak) was born. Due to our discipline our army won battles. The smart external politics of Ter-Petrossian regime enabled Armenia to play east and west against each other. Eventually with our will we won battle after battle. In the last 1,000 years we finally won the war, not just a battle (Sardarapat was just a battle, we lost Kars eventually in that war). So this wasn't war that was made by politicians, but from our desire not to repeat history repeat. We learned our mistakes too well.

 

Sorry for such a long e mail. But I thought it was interesting.

[Guest]

Wow Ahura-Mazda Zgysh yerir Barekams

Gayane JAn shat es jnshum sa el der chek amusnatsats ba vor amusnanak inch klini xerchi vichak@

 

Miyayn yev Miyayn Katak e

 

>>>>>>> How very childish of you.If I were you, I would not be making cheap shots at my potential husband ) I choose to respond only to intelligent criticsm, <<<<

[Guest]

ha ham el moratsa asem 2 hat en poker atomayin rumberist unem dzers tak inch kasek? inch anenk Turkya ? adrbejan te ? monicayi siratsy mot urarkenk ? che es verchini dzer@ et tesak xaralikner petq che tal , inch dzer@ @enknuma pis pis banera anum chek hishum Fidel Castroyi Sigarov inch er arel monicayin. es yerevuam es rumber@ tanem pahem mi kich el .isk Paterazm@ im@ yev kon@ chi linum Paterazm@ mern e Kani vor tsankatsats Paragayum Karabagh yev kam Hayastan yerkussn el merin en .

 

amen mart paykarum e yurovin !!!

 

Ha ham el morratsa asem Sardarapatum menk Tarank Baroyakan Hartanak .cheratsits lav chi isk Kars@ axx kars@

Kars Kars Kars Hayastani Kars Yerb pity du Hayastanin yet veradarnas. !!!

tesnek aprelu enk etkan ? tesnelu enk sa ?hameniyn deps huys@s chem kortsnum miyayn yev miyayn Hartsnum em .

HAyastanum Kar mi qaraq Kars er anun@ !!!!

 

 

[This message has been edited by JanFedayi (edited July 24, 2000).]

[Guest]

Yo-ho-ho-ho Gayane,

 

So you were insulted, huh? Sorry about that. To be frank, I wanted to insult you, 'cause I thought you're not Gayane, but some Gyulnara or Geidar from Baku messing around in Armenian forum (I'm new to this forum, you know). I apologize - now I see you aren't, which in its turn saddens me. I still think your ideas are ridiculous, degenerating (hope you're not offended again), and selfish. Let me explain.

 

Ridiculous: - because from any aspect it's obvious that it is better to meet the enemy far away from your home. And who cares who starts the war (God forbid!)? Who cares that government and army officers are corrupt? One fights not for them, but to defend one's home. And you don't know how the Armenian army is - I know, I've seen it. It does not, however, justify cowardness and ultimate treachery. This isn't about you, though, nobody expects a female to take a weapon and fight, anyway. Hopefully, there are enough Armenian men to do that when necessary, including proud Zangezurci (by the way, where are you from exactly? I lived and fought there for a while, and a lot of people are my friends).

 

Selfish: - imagine now for a second, azeris attack Zangezur. All their forces on Zangezur only - say, they don't want anything, but carve in a corridor to Nakhijevan and Turkey. And I'm sitting in my safe Yerevan apartment, cursing the corrupt government and bloody army, and telling everybody "As long as they don't come to Yerevan, I don't care." Meanwhile, because everybody thinks that way, hordes of azeris overrun your town, kill your relatives and devastate everything, despite fierce resistance of handful of Zangezurci. Pictured that?!? How does it feel, sister? And according to you, I, in contrary, should feel awesome - saved my ass, nobody touched my home, plus I'm proud I did not serve the government I don't like. I hope you got the point.

 

Degenerating: - because even a coward might follow his deeply buried conscience and stand by the others, if he knows everybody else condemns his cowardness and does not buy his excuses. But if he knows there are a lot others with ideas like you have, he will bury it even deeper.

 

Does it make sense now? I'm sure it did before, just that was spiced with some "nice" language. Well, sorry, I lose my temper when I hear people preach anti-national ideology disguised under "justified anger for the government who ruins our country." My answer to those is - @#$% the government, talk about what you did for your country!!!

 

Few last points - I'm sure, when you will have a husband, he'll be a real man and won't let you convince him to be a coward (given that you pick an Armenian husband, of course). And my nick is in ancient Armenian and Persian - read some mythology and history of ancient Armenia, I randomly picked it from there - never meant any comparisons.

 

Take care.

[Guest]

LOL...well, well, well

 

Nvard jan, hech mi mtatsi, no one can lynch me. They can try, but they have yet to succeed ;o)

 

Garik, don't misunderstand, an Armenian war is an Armenian war. BUT, I certainly won't be as fired up about it if the war effort does not directly concern me and mine.

 

Ahura Mazda (and for god's sake, what language is that in?)..the following is for you:

 

Your points 1 and 2 are a correct rendition of my views, yes. After that, you stop making sense, but I'll try to address your views as clearly as possible. (I don't know who you are or how long you've been following this forum, but around here we try not to insult each other. So please, do try to be a little more civil.)

 

If there's a war, you're right, God help us. I have the greatest confidence in the courage of Armenian men, but I have no confidence whatsoever in those organized bodies we choose to call our government and our army. If everybody thinks like me, you're right, god help us again: i'm a little too much for most people..lol. As far as turks/azeris knocking on my door or my relatives' door, let them knock, they'll never get in. If there's one thing my people (from Zangezur) can do that's FIGHT. So I'm not a wise person, am I? And why would that be, my friend? Because I choose to disagree with you? How very childish of you. If I were you, I would not be making cheap shots at my potential husband ) I choose to respond only to intelligent criticsm, not meaningless insults. You can't unnerve me with that (that's for future reference..lol) As far as my "ridiculous and degenerating ideas" go, I'll say the following: a forum is, by definition, a place to voice those ideas. If you choose to disagree, so be it. I would suggest you try to formulate an intelligent rebuttal to my original message and I'd be more than happy to respond to it. As it is, your current response means nothing.

 

I do hope you can calm down and respond rationally.

 

Gayane

[Guest]

Dear Ahura Mazda!

Sorry for the interference, but isn't your name a name of an ancient pagan Persian"fire god" ?Correct me if I'm wrong....

[Guest]

Ahura Mazda= Lord the almighty, "GOD". Compare mäz with the Armenian mets=big! as zoroaster (zarathustra has written in his textbooks called the Gathas) Ahura Mazda is the onley GOD in Zoroasterian religion, Zoroastrianism is a monotheic religion, and therefore it is harsh to call it Pagan. Before the Armenians (and Georgians)became christian, and the Persians(and Azeri's) became shiite moslems, they all were Zoroastrians.

 

another characteristics in that religion were: spenta mainyu (espänd minu in Persian)= the holy spirit, and Angra mainyu (Ährimän in persian) the spirit of anger or devil.

 

Zarathustra talked about: svoshyans= saviours and preached; Good words, Good deeds, Good thoughts.

[Guest]

My part of info about Ahura Mazda: I think Ahura's "hur" means fire as in "hracan". So, as we learned from Iranyar that "mazda" meens big, the traslation from ancient pharphic will meen Great Fire. Zoroastrians worshiped fire, remember? And also if not for the battles of Qadesia 637 AD and Nehavendi 642 AD which led to Arabic conquest of Persia, Persia would eventually adopt Christianity. On astral level, Chrisianity came as a continuation of Zoroastrizm.

 

Gayane,

If not for commies, it would be the turks who will own your land. I'm far of sympathy towards communism, but the fact is that it was the advance of 11 Red Army that saved Armenia in 1920.

 

A perfect exmaple of how a patriot must treat his coutry, its gvmt and a war is again Monte. Unconditional devotion. That's the real soldger. That's the gene that saves a country. Just think of it. He had no local ties, poor Armenian at first, lots of gvmt officials had jealousy about his popularity among the people. His part of Armenia was in turkey, so he fought for other people's Armenia, because it was his Armenia, all of it, every bit of it.

[Guest]

lol..I love sparring with men: it's so impowering

 

Let's take these in order (you gentlemen can be too much at times

 

alpha: As a poli sci major well read on nationalism (hint, hint..lol), I will disagree with you as to the causes of war, but then you know that. Your explanation of the karabax question, etc is greatly appreciated, however. I enjoyed it

 

janfedayi: gitem katakes anum, baits asem vor 1)im entrats txamarte hnaravor chi vor "xexj" lini, yev 2)yerp yes poxadarc hargank yev nvirvacucyunem zgum, apa yes nrpanumem, knkushem darnum, yev nuynisk karelie asel, hnazandvum

 

yev hima du, im "hetanos" zrucakic

 

"nobody expects a "female" to take a weapon and fight". LOL! Interesting point, given that I come from a line of women who do shoot men, azeris to be exact (but that's another story altogether). Question: is that how narrow your view of women is? If so, I can only pity you.

 

to answer your question, I was born in Yerevan, but my father's side of the family has strong and far reaching ties to Meghri and the surrounding region (we owned quite a bit of land there before the commies took it all away after the revolution)

 

re: Zangezur disaster scenario: You were right earlier in your statement when you said "one fights not for the government, but to defend one's home" That's exactly what the Zangezurcis will be doing if they're attacked. And frankly, I don't think they would want anybody else fighting their war since it will be most likely that the others (say soldiers from karabax, etc) don't feel what they feel for their land, and that brings down morale in the troops.

 

Your point about disguising cowardice through talk of a government that ruins our country. No government, no country. Get it?..lol A government needs to be representative of the people to command loyalty of its people and the respect of its army. If those elements are missing, there can be no country. Another point I'm sure will make you furious: I don't consider Armenia as it is currently structured a country. By virtue of a loose political definition, yes it is. Where it really matters, however, it is not.

 

Final point: (actually, the duality of your persona and your screen name made me think of this again) Had we not become a Christian nation, you and I would not be arguing about this very point right now! Yes, you read right, I don't think we should've ever become a Christian nation. It was a costly mistake in political terms.

 

Now, don't break any walls while you're being angry

 

To conclude, not only are my points NOT ridiculous and NOT degenerating, they're highly logical!

 

I think I've managed to annoy you gentlemen enough for one day

 

minch nor hanidpum

gayane

[Guest]

Berj jan you made a valid point about the fact that christianity is related to Zoroastrianism. But as I know Ahura in Avestan (language of Zarathustra) is of the same root as the Germanic Her, German Herr, Dutch Heer, and meens Lord. The myth that the Zoroastrians were firewhoreshipper is created by the Arabs. The Zoroastrians, believed in one God. But Light is always been a good symbol in the Iranian culture. So today you can also see this passion for light in the Armenian litterature.

Even this idea is present in christianity, for example I remember one Persian poems who calls Jesus Christ, The Light on cross, or the crucified light.

Also the shiite muslims have adopted this idea, if it is dark and someone burns a light, they all say a pray (called sälävt).

[Guest]

Iranyar joon,

Lets move this to the Arts section.

[Guest]

Gayane;

 

- "And frankly, I don't think they would want anybody else fighting their war since it will be most likely that the others (say soldiers from karabax, etc) don't feel what they feel for their land, and that brings down morale in the troops."

 

Tell you something - Zangezur, Karabagh is MY LAND too, even I have no relatives or ancestors there. If you think your land is confined to a town or a village or the real estate you family once possessed - its your choice (more precisely - your problem). And don't speak for Zangezurci, my guess is (sorry if it's wrong) you haven't talked to one in last 15 years. I have, and fortunately none of them thought like you. A xoxa, ed hurn@ hetn es qyatsal, m@slahat aral, ver tenc qush-qush pener es s@voral? (sorry if my dialect is not correct - it's been a while)

 

As for the political mistake of becoming a christian nation - what can I say?! You like to refer to the freedom of choice - so feel free to become a muslim, buddhist, krishna, mormon, sintoist, pagan, animist, satanist or whatever your choice is, whichever you think is most beneficial in this political momentum You also have the freedom to preach that religion in your town or even throughout Armenia. Who knows, maybe you will succeed in converting Armenians, and thus will bring all kinds of political benefits to our nation, something we were so imprudently missing for some 17 centuries

 

Back to the freedom of choice - you may choose to reply or not to this post. My choice is: I'm not going to argue with you any more.

 

Oh, and good luck in your hobby of annoying gentlemen

 

 

Iranyar, Berj:

I thought I knew enough about the nickname I picked. Heck, no, I see there's much more to learn from you guys. But you're right, this is a wrong thread to discuss that.

[Guest]

Ahura Mazda..

 

Why, pray tell, will you not argue with me? (I ask out of sheer curiosity although I suspect I know the answer)

 

Gayane

[Guest]

Gayane jan,

I will argue with you all my life... oh sorry, I meen as long as I'm on this forum.

Arayzhm

[Guest]

lol..berj...how very "comforting"

[Guest]

I think religious ruling circles have started most of the wars in the history. Obviously, there are exceptions, especially in the past century.

 

I also think that it would be very hard to give a credible answer to the question whether one will participate in a war, before it has started. The condition of war is not a normal one. In a way it is or it becomes an extreme reflection of mass psychoses. A normal person in a normal condition cannot strive for war, but he/she may choose to volunteer if the realities of the war transfer him/her into another dimension, where things are being done not by choice but by following the principle of the elimination of other choices. The war after all is about killing and destroying.