Attention!!!

[Nasionalist]

From our investigations it also becomes clear that the president B.N.Yelsin after watching the video cassette signed a special order (02/19/21-OD-1992/03/12).

 

He puts a task before the military intelligence on preventing the shooting of such frames that disgrace honour and dignity of Russian soldiers. The first of those tasks was the organization of activeness of secret services on the war zones and territories.

 

The world was watching the burning corpses of Khojali. There were enemies and friends among them. But nobody spoke. Nobody wanted to look towards the smoke of the burning corpses. On March 14, 1992 Roland Deuma the France Minister of Foreign Affairs and Hikmet Chatin the Turkish Minister of Foreign Affaires decided that there would be a ceasefire..on March 15 , at 19.20 Hikmat Chatin asked James Baker the then State Secretary of USA to help with this issue "Using the interest of USA to Armenia. Everything kept to be a lie. The pen was writing lies. Though His Excellence Roland Deuma called the parts to stop the war he raised glasses to the Health of Academician Agambekyan and Zori Balayan who caused these misfortunes, welcomed all steps made for "Great Armenia" (Bablumyan. "Pokazivaet antenna-3". Essays. Armenian Republic. Yerevan 1996 p 91). According to other information we got, on March 18 1992 the head of helicopter squadron in Askaran, major Leonid Ivanovich Kravtiv wrote in his letter addressed to Baku Supreme Soviet: "Deputees!… I saw myself about two hundred killed, scattered on the slope. Among them were people wandering with gun.,.. we tried to take the corpes.. I saw a four year boy with shattered head and lost my mind. Another child whom we managed to take before they began to shoot us, turned out the head to have been cut off. I saw every where the totured bodies of women, children,old people. I want to address to you: Wake up! Help to your people…"

 

Major Kravtsev not receiving answer to his letter addresses to "Izvestiya (Russian Federation Moscow) (See newspaper izvestiya 18/03/1992)".

 

From our investigations it also becomes clear that that times Armenians staying in Baki were busy with conveying weapons in Shaumyan kand direction. That time an officer Aleks Garunovich Egizaryan who rented one of the residents of Central Committee, established relations with air defence regiment and developed a program with the officer Aleg Deyguchov on purchasing and transportation of weapons. Officer Aleg Deyguchov was the radio engenieer of the regiment. That is why the chief commander of air defence, general major Valeriy Chirkov comes to Baki. It becomes known that 29 "AK" guns and 7 thousands bullets, 40 bullet proof vests that O.Deykuchov sold was given to A.Yegizaryan and those weapons were conveyed to Khojali on February 19. (See Baki city the folder of documents of military of Procurator Office: the investigation materials of 1992: Refference for case officer O.D.Deykuchov. But the investigation folder was not prepared.

[DominO123]

Here we go. Beside that, what the hell your post has to do with the diaspora?

 

 

 

 

What really happened in the Conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan from news articles.

 

 

 

Newspapers articles giving a chronology of what happened.

 

 

"1,500 reported dead in Armenian riots," Detroit News Detroit (Mar 11, 1988).

 

"Armenian streets empty," Free Press Detroit (Mar 27, 1988).

 

"16 injuries reported in new Armenian riots," Free Press Detroit (June 21, 1988).

 

"Armenian Unrest," Detroit News Detroit (July 6, 1988).

 

"1 Armenian killed in Soviet ethnic clash," Japan Times (Sept 21, 1988).

 

"More than 80 people have been charged with criminal offenses in the anti-Armenian unrest that broke out in Sumgait, an industrial city on the Caspian Sea about 20 miles north of Azerbaijan’s capital, Baku.

 

[Akhmed] Akhmedov and two co-defendants, Ilgam Ismailov and Yavar Dzhafarov, went on trial at the Supreme Court on murder and arson charges October 18. Tass, the official news agency, said the three were charged with ‘organizing and taking a direct part in mass disorders accompanied by pogroms, acts of arson and murders’." Associated Press (Nov. 20, 1988)

 

"Activities Say 12 Arrested at Christmas Celebration," Associated Press (Jan 9, 1989).

 

"Gorbachev opens Soviet Government Meeting on 'Urgent' Issues,," Associated Press (Jan 12,

1989).

 

"Armenians Continue to Leave Azerbaijan," Washington Times Washington, D.C. (Feb 20, 1989).

 

"2 Die in Ethnic Riot in Soviet Enclave," Chicago Tribune Chicago (July 12, 1989).

 

"An appeal to Soviet Foreign Minister Eduard Shevardnadze," New York Times National (Sept 21,

1989).

 

"Azerbaijan Militants Seize Town Offices," Washington Times, Washington, D.C. (Jan 12, 1990).

 

"In Saturday night’s anti-Armenian riots in Baku, people were reported burned alive and a witness said women were thrown from apartment windows." Associated Press (Jan. 17, 1990)

 

"Most of the victims have been Armenians attacked by mobs in the Azerbaijani capital of Baku. Terrorized Armenians were said to still be fleeing by the thousands.

 

Soviet troops ordered in Tuesday to enforce a state of emergency have become caught up in the fighting, their efforts hampered by defiant nationalists who have been setting up blockades." Associated Press (Jan.18,1990)

 

"The taking of Baku climaxed a week of turmoil that began when murderous anti-Armenian riots broke out in the city on January 13." Associated Press (Jan. 21, 1990)

 

"Armed units in black uniforms attacked 3 villages in the southern Soviet republic of Azerbaijan yesterday and ordered all ethnic Armenians to leave, the Interfax news agency said. The report said troops backed by helicopters and armored vehicles entered the Azerbaijani villages of Erkech, Manashid and Buzlukh, which are heavily populated by Armenians. The gunmen threatened the ethnic Armenians with death if they did not comply with the orders to leave." Associated Press (14 Jul. 1991)

 

 

Azerbaijan decided to change its own constitution, and decide to annex Karabagh not as their protectorate and an autonomous oblask, like it was supposed to be, but annex it as an integral part of Azerbaijan.

 

"Azerbaijan's Parliament voted to take control of the disputed territory of Nagorno-Artsax,

according to Soviet television," Wall Street Journal Bowling Green (Nov 27, 1991).

 

"In January alone, more than 60 Armenians were killed and more than 90 wounded, including many elderly and children killed in their houses by rocket fire" Associated Press (2 Feb. 1992)

 

 

Later, as a result of Azerbaijan fascist regime.

 

"Azerbaijan Attacks Armenian Enclave," Financial Times (Mar 8, 1992).

 

After Azerbaijan crimes, the Armenian side accept the intervention of UN peacekeepers to end up the conflict, and the redraw of both Azerbaijani and Armenian troops. But Azerbaijan side refuse.

 

"Azerbaijan rejected the use of U.N. peacekeeping troops to end four years of fighting with Armenia over the Caucasus Mountains enclave of Nagorno-Artsax.," Wall Street Journal Bowling Green (Mar 18, 1992).

 

"Armenia declared a state of emergency because of a worsening economic situation caused by an Azerbaijani blockade, according to a broadcast by Armenian radio.," Wall Street Journal Bowling Green (Mar 19, 1992).

 

"Armenia Captures Strategic Sites In Battle Over Caucasus Enclaves," New York Times National

(Apr 12, 1992).

 

”Azerbaijani forces captured more than a dozen villages in Nagorno-Artsax and killed over 200

Armenians in one of the worst clashes in the four-year-old war over the enclave.," Wall Street

Journal Bowling Green (June 15, 1992).

 

"Azerbaijani Troops Seized Another Town In The Disputed Nagorno-Artsax Region After An

Overnight Battle That Reportedly Left Dozens Of People Dead And Hundreds Wounded," Wall

Street Journal Bowling Green (July 6, 1992).

 

"Azeris Accused Of Artsax Shelling," Financial Times (July 10, 1992).

 

"Armenia Seeks Help in Fighting Azerbaijan," New York Times National (July 21, 1992).

 

"Azerbaijani jets 'kill 40 in raids'," Financial Times (Aug 24, 1992).

 

 

Azerbaijan then decides once and for all to ethnically cleans its Armenian population.

 

"Azerbaijanis Open an Offensive To Drive Armenians From Region," New York Times National

(Sept 23, 1992).

 

 

The Azeris are so good at quoting newspapers articles, like if the Armenian side are lacking of those, the chronology of those newspaper articles shows us what really happened and how it started and who has most of the blame to share.

 

 

Some reports from Times Magazine.

 

“According to a local television worker reached by telephone, the trouble started when a group of some 50 Azerbaijanis arrived in Sumgait from Nagorno-Artsax bearing word of ethnic fighting there. The apparent result was a murderous backlash aimed at local Armenians. An Armenian resident of Sumgait, sobbing into the telephone, told Reuters that Azerbaijanis had gone on a rampage of rape and murder against Armenians. He said that seven members of a single family had been killed and that many Armenians were trying to flee the city.”

 

Time; Author: Thomas A. Sancton. Reported by James O. Jackson and Ken Olsen/Moscow “03-14 1988

 

“Over the next two years, more than 220,000 Armenians fled Azerbaijan. Those who remained behind in the disputed enclave of Nagorno-Artsax have lived under a virtual state of siege, relying on supplies airlifted from Armenia.”

 

Time; Author: JILL SMOLOWE Reported by John Kohan/Moscow 01-29-1990

 

“Azerbaijan is turning into a permanent crisis for Gorbachev. There have been two years of something approaching civil war over the republic's mostly Armenian enclave of Nagorno-Artsax, where more than 120 people have been killed. In Baku, Azerbaijani gangs have systematically terrorized Armenians. Violence has also broken out in the southwestern city of Jalilabad, where two weeks ago mobs took over the local Communist Party headquarters and police station, and are threatening to elect their own leaders.”

 

Time; Author: Bruce W. Nelan. Reported by Dean Fischer/Cairo and John Kohan/Moscow 01-15-1990

 

We can remark, how the articles from newspapers are abound in number, showing us whow were really responsible of the conflict.

 

 

Here a little about the role of the media in the conflict, and the way the Azeris side has used it.

 

The Role of Media in Reporting Ethnic Conflict, Conflict Management Group, Kennedy School of Government, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA. January 1994, page 31-32

 

Dan Sneider, Moscow correspondent, Christian Science Monitor

 

“I would like to talk as a working journalist to my colleagues here, because although this discussion has been very interesting and often provocative, it is a little bit too abstract for my own taste. I would like to talk about these guidelines in terms of concrete situations.

 

This first question of balance and providing unbiased and accurate coverage of each side of the conflict: I have covered the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan for three years now. The principle of balance is a great principle but often hard to accomplish in reality. Let me give you the example of the events in Khozhali. I was in Moscow when the stories came out of Khozhali saying there was this tremendous massacre of civilians by Armenian forces, there were gruesome stories, some TV footage, but it was very hard to figure out what exactly the pictures were of, and the numbers of people described as being killed, and the circumstances varied depending upon the account. I decided to go to Nagorno-Artsax, but I went through the Armenian side because I wanted to get into Artsax itself which at that point was controlled, as it is now, by the Armenians.

 

Before I left, I had heard of all these reports, I talked to one Western news photographer who had been on the scene. But even he had not actually seen the events himself. His account was based on having been flown up to a mountain side by the Azeris in a helicopter to take photographs of bodies on the hillside, bodies which seemed to indicate that they were of civilians, but also adult men, but seemed to indicate that they had been shot at close range. So I had that information together with all the other conflicting reports. I made my way to Artsax and spoke to the Armenian authorities there, who gave me their version of events which was of course completely different. They described the battle as they saw it. I interviewed soldiers who had been directly involved in the battle, who had been firing on Azeri forces. I was in Khozhali, I saw the city, the damage that was done, some of the damage fit the description of the battle that I got from the Armenian side, which was that there was a big battle, the Azeris tried to move out of the town under fire, it was in the middle of the night, they fired on everything that they saw…

 

I agree that it would be good to be able to make an assessment, a judgment about maybe the absolute with or to some degree as much as you can make a judgment about the truth of what has happened. But a lot of the time you simply are not in a position to make that judgment. That's why I think the importance of balance is to insist that where you cannot ascertain the truth, you must present as accurately as possible what you do know, and then what the different versions of that event are from the conflicting sides, and I think that if you are a direct observer of the event, I think it is fair to make the kind of assessment that was talked about. But if you are not, you have to treat it as the perceptions of that event on both sides and how those perceptions are affecting the reactions and the responses, and the escalation of the conflict.”

 

 

The Fraud of Kojali, from the president of that time.

 

Interview of Ayaz Mutalibov(ex-president) gave to the Czech journalist Dana Mazalova, published in the Nizavisimaya Gazeta of April 2, 1992

 

 

Dana Mazalova:

 

“What are your thoughts about the incident in Khodjalu, which was followed by your resignation? Corpses from the fighting in Khodjalu have been found not far from Aghdam. It appears that these people were initially shot in the foot to prevent them to move further, after which they were hit with axes. On February 19, my colleagues had filmed these corpses. On March 2, the same corpses were shown scalped. It seems like weird games.”

 

 

Ayaz Mutalibov

 

“Those residents who survived the Khodjalu incidents have stated that whatever happened there was orchestrated only to create the scenario for my resignation. There were certain elements working the overthrow of the President. I highly doubt that the Armenians would provide revealing documents to the Azerbaijanis. I can only assume that certain people were interested in using those pictures at the plenary session of the Azerbaijani Supreme Council to place the focus of the attention on my person.”

 

 

Now, before continuing on that, lets post what the Azeris government has decided to do with the Armenians.

 

"One option is quite definitely not open; namely, any attempt to declare Nagorno Artsax to be part of Azerbaijan. That would be to reward those who indulged in aggression and invasion of a neighboring independent state, as well as to cause gross violations of human rights in total defiance of treaty obligations . . . We should remember the statement made by President Elchibey in June 1992, when, after opening full hostilities against Artsax, he said that if there were any Armenians left in Artsax by October they could hang him in the central square of Baku. It is a pity they did not! No amount of oil-lubricated waffle or diplomatic flannel in the West can excuse this clear statement of intent by a head of state. It has the underlying unequivocal ring of statements made by Genghis Khan, and we all know what his intentions were."

 

House of Lords Hansard, 28 October 1993, cols. 966-967

 

Shadman Huseynov, said about the president.

 

 

"All he wants is to clear Azerbaijan of Armenians." 20 Jun. 93

 

 

About Khojali.

 

On February 26, the Azerbaijani Interior Ministry released their casualty figures concerning Xojali, 100 dead and 250 wounded (COVCAS Bulletin, March 5, 1992), including the OMON’s(Azeris gorillas), when Azerbaijani government reported to the media’s around the world that 1000 civilians have been exterminated. There has been no investigation; the Azerbaijani government refused any possible investigations. They also hide the fact that Xojali was used as bases for GRAD rocket launchers.

 

Armenians before attacking Xojali gave an ultimatum for their entrance in the city, after that dozens of GRAD’s were been fired from the city to Armenian civilian zone destroying a hospital.

 

Helsinki Watch in Baku on April 28, 1992 interviewed Azeri’s civilians, that recognised of having been told by Alif Gajiev (the head of the Azeris OMON in Khodjaly) : "They (the Armenians) made an ultimatum.. . that the Khodjaly people had better leave with a white flag. Alif Gajiev told us this on February 15. but this didn't frighten me or other people. We never believed they could occupy Khodjaly." (Helsinki Watch, p. 20) . They decided to not leave the city, when OMON peoples were hiding in Civilian areas. Another report from Helsinki Watch: "All Azerbaijanis interviewed who were in this group reported that the militia, still in uniform, and some still carrying their guns, were interspersed with the masses of civilians." (Helsinki Watch, p. 21) Another thing is that COVCAS Bulletin, April 9, 1992, on page 4 reported the ex-President of Azerbaijan, Ayaz Mutalibov speech on April 1992 that the massacre of Xojali was done by his political opponents to force his resignation.

 

What about the massacre of Armenians in Maragha village? Contrary to Xojali that was uses as military bases and attacks by militia’s, Maragha was just a simple villages, where CSI mission to Nagorno Artsax in April before Xojali incident investigated, where there was 45 corps of women, children’s and elderly, and that there was at least 100 missing. Or Sumgait massacre were hundreds died, and Azerbaijani government refused to lets any international investigators in, openly saying that there should be no Armenians left in Azerbaijan. At this time there was no Armenian troops there, what about Kirovabad? On November 21, 1988 the 40,000 of the Armenians have been deported and uncounted numbers killed, when without Russian entrance to stop the conflict, all the Armenians from Azerbaijan were about to be deported and killed.

 

In November 18, 1988 an Azeri-Turk was sentenced to death in Moscow for his role in the Sumgait massacre. Just the next day a mass demonstration of Azeris in Baku took place, 500,000 peoples, screaming the slogan “Death to Armenians” and “Armenians out of Azerbaijan” When Armenians were leaving by thousands.

 

Even Azeris eyewitnesses were admitting this. Azaddin Gyulmamed report : "We went to see what was happening. We saw these guys in the streets. I don't know who they were drug addicts, maybe. They had sticks and clubs, and lists of Armenians and where they lived. They wanted to break down the doors of Armenian apartments and chase them out. The police didn't do anything. They just stood and watched. Same with the soldiers, who had weapons. We asked them to help. There were about a dozen soldiers and ten of us, and there were about twenty in the gang, but the soldiers wouldn't help. They said: 'You can do it yourself, Blackie. We're not getting involved." Recorded by the Reporter Robert Cullen.

 

All this continue when villages in the Shaumyan region were emptied of their Armenian population. Armenian villages of Kirov (Bertadzor district) and Dolanlar (Gadrut district), were repopulated by Azerbaijani’s, when Armenian homes were distributed to them.

 

 

 

 

Goltz lies.

 

Goltz and his Turkish wife Dr. Hikran Goltz, are in an active propaganda war against the Armenians... also Goltz was one of the initiators of the news that more then a thousand Azeris have been killed in Xojali, with the Turkish correspondent Elif Kaban of the Reuters, and the photographers such as Oleg Litvin, Dunn Fatali, Mirnaib Hasan etc...

 

The ironic about this, is that Goltz having knowledge of the event, since he covered the deaths in Xojali, should have pointed out when the photographers that were with him photographing the pictures that were not mutilated 2 days before... what this mean, is that Goltz implication on lying should cost his job as a said journalist, since he was aware that the pictures that were taken were manipulated by the Azeris themselves. T. Mazalova from Czechoslovakia, like pointed out above, that was one of the correspondent there, was watching the tapes recorded of the deaths, one filmed on February 29 and the other on March 2, realized that in the first series of pictures the bodies were not mutilated, and on the second they were, when Goltz group of photographs took pictures from February to March 2, and being so, he would be one of the first to know that these pictures were build up scenes of mutilated bodies, that he Goltz was the one propagating to the World that more then a thousand of Azeris civilians were killed by Armenian forces. When Azerbaijani Interior Ministry released figures at first was of 100 casualties, later Helsinki Watch, published a list of the casualties(total number 181) based on a list provided by the Azerbaijani parliament, from 100 as official numbers they increased to 181... And what was the numbers submitted to the World? It was submitted by Goltz group, first to the Washington Post, he presented first a number(source ? practically nowhere to be found, he say having taken it from Imam Sadikov, that number later has been multiplied to 700, 1000 and even 1500) 477, then the medias, then it was presented to the London Sunday Times also pressed by him etc... From 100 as the official number to more than a thousand, now it is a question of between 600 to 700 by the Azeris side.

 

Armenians have used the Soviet constitutional law to annex the autonomous Oblask of Karabagh, that was only an Azeris protectorate, and not as an integral part of it. The Armenians used legal means under Soviet constitution, after that the Karabagh Armenians reported to the Azeris government in various occasions to stop the unjust treatments that they were facing for decades, when lately Azeris fanatics in 1988 entered in there, beating Armenians, this was presented at the Azeris Soviet council, and ignored.

 

Xojali has been proven to be a political tool by Turkey in order to turn the public opinion from the recognition of the Armenian genocide. Even the Turkish republic refuses to call the Xojali event genocide, or a premeditated killing, because they know that in Azerbaijan there is dozens of such events that happened against the Armenians, that will be turned against them, I have named few of them here.

 

700,000 Azeris refugees, the number of more then a million is found by the addition of the refugees from both sides, there as well as 350,000 Armenian refugees that are ignored by the Azeris side, preferring to use the total number of refugees(which include the Armenians), and present them as all being Azeris.

[Arpa]

Hey Fad!

Didn't we swear, and, yes, we did swear**, that we would apply the Golden Rule to these idiots? In case we have fogotten the "Golden Rule" is; "Silence is Golden".

They are not worth our time, they are where we were some decades ago losing, the "war of words", aka, propaganda.

Let them hyperventilate all they want, we know what that is, we also know that we have the upper hand now, time will tell, truth cannot be hidden.

 

** I want to thank everybody who wrote to me openly or in PMs about my use of vulgar language on the air(remember the "knight" who vanished in the night?). What can I say? Vulgarity begets vulgarity!

I can be even more vulgar since I know their vulgar language!!

Let them try!!

Let's see who can manufacture more vulgar lies!!!

[DominO123]

Hey Fad!

Didn't we swear, and, yes, we did swear**, that we would apply the Golden Rule to these idiots? In case we have fogotten the "Golden Rule" is; "Silence is Golden".

They are not worth our time, they are where we were some decades ago losing, the "war of words", aka, propaganda.

Let them hyperventilate all they want, we know what that is, we also know that we have the upper hand now, time will tell, truth cannot be hidden.

 

** I want to thank everybody who wrote to me openly or in PMs about my use of vulgar language on the air(remember the "knight" who vanished in the night?). What can I say? Vulgarity begets vulgarity!

I can be even more vulgar since I know their vulgar language!!

Let them try!!

Let's see who can manufacture more vulgar lies!!!

But I have not answered his arguments or started a conversation with him. I just reposted my post that was deleted in his friends Azeris forum.

[gamavor]

It is funny how those mongol bastards (turks, chechens, azeris, tatars, cherkez etc.) have lived for 7 centuries in the region and fail to learn some basic geography. Greater Armenia has nothing to do with Armenian Empire which stretched far beyond the borders of Greater Armenia. Armenia Minor has nothing to do with present day Republic of Armenia, because it is quite big as a piece of land, still under occupation.

 

[Harut]

It is funny how those mongol bastards (turks, chechens, azeris, tatars, cherkez etc.) have lived for 7 centuries in the region and fail to learn some basic geography. Greater Armenia has nothing to do with Armenian Empire which stretched far beyond the borders of Greater Armenia. Armenia Minor has nothing to do with present day Republic of Armenia, because it is quite big as a piece of land, still under occupation.

 

even most westerners don't know geography. in many palces they reffer to Cilicia as Lesser Armenia.

[DominO123]

It is funny how those mongol bastards (turks, chechens, azeris, tatars, cherkez etc.) have lived for 7 centuries in the region and fail to learn some basic geography. Greater Armenia has nothing to do with Armenian Empire which stretched far beyond the borders of Greater Armenia. Armenia Minor has nothing to do with present day Republic of Armenia, because it is quite big as a piece of land, still under occupation.

 

 

even most westerners don't know geography. in many palces they reffer to Cilicia as Lesser Armenia.

That is not entirly false, it's a mistake on what does really mean "lesser."

[Lev7]

Domino,

 

Nice post, I actually read the whole thing

 

As for Nasionalist.....get a life. Your country lost and WILL ALWAYS BE A LOSER LIKE YOU !

Edited July 27, 2003 by Lev7

[DominO123]

Thanks Lev, BTW, are you by chance Lev, the Russian camarad, from turkeydotcom?

[Lev7]

Thanks Lev, BTW, are you by chance Lev, the Russian camarad, from turkeydotcom?

No, sorry