Armenism

[Artaxias]

http://pub21.ezboard.com/barmenistforum

 

Interesting forum dedicated to pre-Christian Armenia.

If you don't read Armenian or Russian don't bother.

[Arpa]

Dear Artaxias,

Thank you for the link. Unfortunately most of the articles are in Russian which I cannot read and even then those in Armenian are written in the Latin script which is very difficult to read. Perhaps you can translate some of them, specially those about Haykakan Dicabanutyun which I am keenly interested in.

You seem to be familiar with this movement. How much more can you tell us about it? Is it a big movement? How does the genral Armenian public view thwm? Do they have a large foloowing?

I have said this many times; Why do we sweep our Mythology under the carpet and hide it as if we were ashamed of it? Are the Greeks ashamed of the myhtology? In fact Greek economy (tourism) is heavily dependent on their ancient hitory and mythology. And many other poeple. How much do Egyptians gain because of thei Islam and how much of thei preIslamic heritage?

AS to the reference to Hrea Arakyals, there those here and all over armenia(lower case A to mean tye world community of Armenians)who belive and insist that we are like the Jews, our past present and future are and should be like their's..... etc. I have and still do argue that however I must agree in one point that we should have used the Jews as models and reject Christianity as the bankrupt philosophy as they did and still do.If Xhristianity was good then the Jews themselves wouldhave adopted it, they did not they don't now and they never will since as seen below Christianity has benefitted us even an iota as to the devastation it has cuased...?

Yet again when it comes to religion and other philosophies; It is not the song itself but how WE sing it. Most of the mightiest nations of the world claim to be Christians too.

Below, a sample of some of the items in that forum.

 

Sireli hayer

 

Hnaravor e, vor 301 tvin kristoneutyane aylntrank chkar, bayc piti xostovanel vor ayn hayerin neshnchvum er otarneri koghmic, hay azgi mtavor tulutyan pahin (hrea arakialner, asori u huyn yepiskoposner, partev Grigor yev ayln), yerb hay petakanutyan korsti vtang er aradjacel. dzezanic shateri datoghutyunnere henvum en voch te patmakan pasteri, ayl chimacutyan vra. orinak Grigor Lusavorichi depke, vori patvin yekegheciner en karucum Hayastanum. ardyok duk dzez harc ek tvel, te ov e yeghel na yev inchu er uzum, vor hayere darnan kristonya? amenazarmanalin ayn e, vor ayd masin shat lav haytni e, bayc hayers chenk uzum haskanal, te inch e teghi unecel. bolord gitek, vor Grigore partev er, nra hayre inch vor patjarov spanel er Trtadi hore (partevakan arkunikum), vori hetevanke yeghav ayn, vor Trdate hramayec sri kashel Grigori entaniki bolor andamnerin, prkecin miayn Grigorin, vorin paxcrin Byuzandia, vortegh el na dardzav kristonia. bnakan e harc tal, te yerb partev Grigore galis er Hayastan, ardyok na giter hayerin kam hayeren, iharke voch. na galis er Hayastan, vorpeszi vrej lutzi Trdat tagavoric ayn nor kroni midjocov, vor kochvum er kristoneutyun. isk ayd vreje hnaravor er arnel tagavoric miayn mi yeghankov, voch te zrkelov nran ayd titghosic, vore na cher karogh anel, ayl kortzanelov ayn petutyune, vori tagavorn er Trdate ( dzez sa chi hishecnum mer voch vagh ancyali mi patmutyun, yerb V. Ulyanove ir yeghbor mahvan vreje Nikolay caric arnelu hamar artasnec ir hrchakavor dardzatz xoskere, te menk ayl tjanaparhov kgnank, bolorovin chimanalov, vor Hayastan yerkrum irenic shat aradj nman ban arden teghi unecel e). mnacatz patmutyane kartzum em gitekek, 328 tvakanin Grigor Lusavoriche tesav hay petakanutyan kortzanume, vore yev nra npatakn er. hetaga dareri masin chem uzum xosel, uzum em miayn hishatakel katoghikos Petros Getadardzin (isk nra nmannere shat en yeghel mer patmutyan medj), vore srbutyamb hetevelov ir nshanavor naxordin (nkati unem Grigor Lusavorichin) verdjnakanpes kortzanec hrashkov verakngnvatz petakanutyune , Bagraunineri tagavorutyune. aynpes vor havatacek miayn imacutyane yev voch te karozchutyane.

 

lav yeghek Palian I.

[nairi]

From what I've heard, the whole organization behind this seems to be some sort of cult. They are not merely bringing back our pre-Christian mythology, they want to conquer Armenia with it, i.e. giving no more room for believers of others religions (including atheists).

 

Lately a lot of hype has been going round this "House of Ber" thing as well, which promotes the same as Armenism and goes even further wanting to conquer the world. I'm not sure if I should associate the two, as I don't know much about either, but it all sounds a bit freaky to me.

[gamavor]

It is freaky. Just like any other religion some may say, but the point is to make your believes and your understanding of religion work towards your goals and empower them with a doctrine that will make sense to the others by preserving high moral standards without sacrificing your material interests. This is exactly what the strongest "Christian" nations did. Not that they are more "Christian" than we are, they are just smart "Christians" while we were toooo Christian. We have the doctrine in place, but we allowed our geographical isolation to dominate over our cultural and spiritual life. Inevitably that led to technological and ideological backwardness. Add to that the political complications and you will get the picture.

 

During the Yugoslav war, a plea was made by the Bulgarian Patriarch to the Serb Patriarch Pavle with the message to reach the Orthodox Serbs which read "Do not Kill", - one of God's commandments. Have you heard such plea from any of the religious denominations in USA when Bush administration attacked Iraq?

[Sasun]

Armenism - sounds like a cooked up "religion" for political goals. These guys do not want to have the religion that was initiated by a Jew (or any other non-Armenian for this matter). Since an Armenian has not started any religion they try to create a religion that is exclusively Armenian and "right" for Armenians, but what they have is more like a nazi ideology and has nothing to do with spirituality or humanity.

[Nvard]

Good site, by the way, it's got a great amount og mithology.

 

I've discovered lots of highly interesting things

[Nvard]

But some of the religion stuff sounds freaky

[AriaMard]

Armenism rullezz forever

 

 

Arpa

 

////

I have and still do argue that however I must agree in one point that we should have used the Jews as models and reject Christianity as the bankrupt philosophy as they did and still do.If Xhristianity was good then the Jews themselves wouldhave adopted it, they did not they don't now and they never will since as seen below Christianity has benefitted us even an iota as to the devastation it has cuased...?

////

 

I agree with you. If christianity was a such a good thing why they didnt adopt. Especially if they created it. Are they idiots? I don't think.

 

 

 

////Lately a lot of hype has been going round this "House of Ber" thing as well, which promotes the same as Armenism and goes even further wanting to conquer the world. ////

 

This guy has nothing to do with Armenism. He don't even speak Armenian as i know.

 

No one has the right to create a armenian ideology or religion if he don't speak armenian.

If not some provokators or even worse antiarmenian minded people will do a great harm to Armenia.

 

 

 

gamavor

 

///understanding of religion work towards your goals and empower them with a doctrine that will make sense to the others by preserving high moral standards without sacrificing your material interests ///

 

The thing you are describing is the national interest.

 

 

Sasun

 

//// Since an Armenian has not started any religion they try to create a religion that is exclusively Armenian and "right" for Armenians, but what they have is more like a nazi ideology and has nothing to do with spirituality or humanity. /////

 

It is very easy to say this is nazy that is communism. Without knowing hte subject.

 

Brign me a time when armenians forced someone to become armenian. I will say yes there is a great risk that armenism will become a Nazi ideology

[Sasun]

Sasun

 

//// Since an Armenian has not started any religion they try to create a religion that is exclusively Armenian and "right" for Armenians, but what they have is more like a nazi ideology and has nothing to do with spirituality or humanity. /////

 

It is very easy to say this is nazy that is communism. Without knowing hte subject.

 

Brign me a time when armenians forced someone to become armenian. I will say yes there is a great risk that armenism will become a Nazi ideology

So what is Armenism? Why a religion has to do with Armenians only? Is there a separate God for Armenians?

 

By the way, Nazi Germans didn't force others to become German, they just exterminated them.

 

It is funny to read a statement like "Armenism rules forever" Let Armenism rule for one day, then we will see if it can rule forever.

 

On another message board an Armenian who was promoting nationalism said something like "let's take the example of Hitler's Germany who ruled the world". Well, when did that happen?

[AriaMard]

So what is Armenism? Why a religion has to do with Armenians only? Is there a separate God for Armenians?////

 

 

THE GOD IS ONE, mr Sasun

 

And nobody can have separate God.

 

 

///By the way, Nazi Germans didn't force others to become German, they just exterminated them.///

 

have armenians exterminated someona ???

[Sasun]

So what is Armenism? Why a religion has to do with Armenians only? Is there a separate God for Armenians?////

 

 

THE GOD IS ONE, mr Sasun

 

And nobody can have separate God.

 

 

///By the way, Nazi Germans didn't force others to become German, they just exterminated them.///

 

have armenians exterminated someona ???

AriaMard, I don't think you understood what I said. Why is this religion called Armenism. And what is it? If this is about the God who is the same God for everyone, then why "Armen"-ism?

 

You were saying that Armenians have not forced anyone to become Armenians, and I said that is not what Nazis do. I am not saying that Armenians are Nazis. I am saying that this Armenism sounds like a Nazi ideology. Do you understand what I mean?

[DominO]

We still have not digested the other "-ism" and what I see when I read this thread? Another "-ism" like if those other ones were not enought.

[Arpa]

We still have not digested the other "-ism" and what I see when I read this thread? Another "-ism" like if those other ones were not enought.

Why not?

What is wrong with "ism"?

The Hindus have Hinduism, thr Shintos have Shintoism.... so on and on ad infinitum. It seems like only we have no "ism". We tried many, with disastrous effects. You name them.

As a rule I am personally against "isms", except when it has OUR benefit in mind.

Ever since we abandonned our "isms", our native gods for the sake of the god of "judaism" (another ism), our fotunes have taken a downward turn.

 

See below, Armenian Poetry, maintained by MosJan. Go to Navasardian Aghotk by Siamanto, which BTW is my contribution, read the last verse and see what he has to say. You will learn that this "Armenism" is nothing new, Siamanto was a member of the Bagin Society, along with Daniel Varouzhan and others, who had finally come to the conclusion that abandonning our gods and adopting other peaoples' gods had not served us right. Other peoples' gods have their own agendas and their own flock to attend to. Each people must have their own gods whose main function is to look after its own people. Why would the god of the Jews even be concerned with our problem? We know that he has his hands full!!!

As to how many gods there are?

Dare I say 6 billion?

One for every one of us on this planet.

It has been said that "God created man in his own image".

Think about it. Is it not rather that "man has created god(s) in his own image, accordin to their ethnic charatcter and agenda?. Look around you. I cannot speak for all the minor religions, but look at the major ones and see what kind of god they have. Let us not go too far, read the Bible again and see how many gods there are, the OT God is jealous, vindictive, "akn akan, atam @nt atam" (eye for eye and tooth for tooth). His people have always practiced that, they are still doing it. Read the news from the Middle East.

What have we done?

We abandonned all of our ethnic and national gods hoping that an alien god would do it for us. Nobody took that "turn the other face" literally except you who. Nobody took that "thou shall not kill" literally except you know who. And ever since then we have been killed over and over again.

Tell us about it!

 

In closing. Who needs gods anyway?

 

How about we do our own work in a way that is most beneficial for us. And leave the gods where they belong, not on the battlefield. Church, temple maybe?.

So, now do you understand what all this "Armenism" is coming from?

 

And please, let that "nazism" garbage aside. Self preservation is not a sin. Why are WE so concerned and afraid of being called "nazis"???

Are not the Turks the biggest nazis of all time?

 

http://armenianpoetry.com/arm/2701.html

 

In case the AM Font is unreadable I will be glad to translate.

[Arpa]

Furthermore, the English, French, Germans and even Americans profess allegiance to that idiot called Jehovah (god of the Jews). Have they ever extended their necks to be cutoff?

Guess which idiots have done it time and again?

It is not waht has been written but how we the illerate and unsophisticaed idiots read it.

:angry:

[MosJan]

yes qich djvarutyamb em haskanum iys amen@ - yev yerevi te reflexsov merjum vorsh baner

 

ogneq indz haskanal hetevyal@

Azgakron = ???

Hye'i BnaKorn Kronq =??

Bagin Society = ???

GAregin Njdeh = yev ir HAvatq???

[Arpa]

Sorry MosJan, I lied.

It is not the Bagin Society, it is the Mehyan monthly literary magazine founded by Costan Zarian to which Daniel Varuzhan, Siamanto and others were contributors.

 

Below the URL where the following segments are taken from. We may want ro read the entire site for valuable information about Western Armenian culture.

This discussion may be better moved to another subject topic, be it culture, literature etc.

 

A word or two about "mehyan". It is intimately associated with "bagin". The latter being the actual pagan altar for sacrifice while "mehyan" is the whole temple. It is derived from "mihryan/mehryan", i.e. temples dedicated to the god Mihr which in time evolved to just plain "mehyan". Whereas it was first used to exclusively mean "temples dedicated to Mihr", in time it evolved to generically mean "any pagan temple". Not unlike the word Astuac which originally was used to describe THE Armenian god which after the christianization took a generic nature, to mean any god but more specifically was applied to describe that newly discovered Jehovah.

 

http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/history/centers.../source111.html

 

The Pagan Movement and Daniel Varuzhan

 

Souren Danielyan, Spiurk Scientific Educational Center, Erevan

 

 

 

At the beginning of the last century in the crossroads of development of the Armenian literature, the pagan aesthetics brought about revolutions. The clothing of the national traditions was subjected to tests by the new expressions of European romantic imagery. This was a unique alliance between fidelity to ethnic feelings and literary systemization experiments of the newest poetic forms. Form and subject opened new boundaries to national literary dimensions. The Pagan movement has been one of the most important aspects of Armenian participation in the world literary process. There is no a second example of this kind. First of all, what is this literary movement about? It is worshiping nature and beauty, sharp contrast between the past and the present, incensing of pagan freedom; all these are gateways for Western Armenian poets. Yet ‘gateway’ should be understood in two standards. The first ‘gateway’ deals with the imagery boundaries: it pours out from the pagan essence of the poet seeking for the beauty of spring. This path leads to the evaluation of the past. He also hunts for the freedom alphabet, which is the second ‘gateway’. Freedom of art presupposes freedom of spirit and ideals. National literary perception pursues borders of reconciliation with national political perspectives, when the ideology of struggle shepherds the consciousness of people into the holy battle and victory.

 

 

 

The two main national and aesthetic levers of Pagan Movement are intertwined and best represented in the inner layers of the works of Western Armenian poet Daniel Varuzhan (1884 -1915).

 

 

 

In particular, literary ‘paganism,’ according to Varuzhan, is an escape from the harsh reality of his days—a marsh, where the concepts of nobility and chivalry, beauty and love are trampled down. He recaptures the vital glamor of pagan times, where strength has creative power, and the man is a hero owing to his strength and manliness. With the loss of paganism, in Varuzhan’s opinion, the Armenians deprived themselves of the ideal of the strong man. They became miserable and submissive. “When are paganism and old victories returning? We need heroes to acquire them, not diplomacy.”

 

 

 

This is the focal point of Varuzhan’s art, as he searches for the hero of the past. Worshiping love and beauty are of foremost importance in his “Pagan Songs” (1912, Constantinople). He considers himself a priest pursuing strength and beauty, agreeing with the variant of compromise between ‘the utilitarianism’ and ‘beauty,’ a system of ideas, which according to the poet is the pool of true patriotism.

 

 

 

 

 

Constantinople before and After the Catastrophe: The Voice of Gostan Zarian

 

 

 

Vartan Matiossian, Universidad del Salvador, Buenos Aires, and Hovnanian School, New Jersey

 

 

 

One of the most important and more neglected names of the Armenian literature in the 20th century, Gostan Zarian's life span (1885-1969) covered eight crucial decades for Armenian history. He was active in Constantinople with the Western Armenian generation before the 1915 Catastrophe, then lived forty years in the Diaspora and finally went to die in Soviet Armenia.

 

 

 

Zarian lived in Constantinople at three different periods. He first went there in 1910-1911 from Brussels, after completing his university studies. He was a young, French-writing poet with no knowledge of Armenian language. After an interlude in Venice, he returned to Constantinople in 1913-1914, and renewed his links with the most avant-garde elements of the Armenian intelligentsia. He started one of the most audacious, even if short-lived, literary projects: the journal Mehyan, which lasted until June 1914.

 

 

 

Zarian fled from the Ottoman capital in October of the same year, shortly before Turkey entered the war, and was able to avoid the butchery of the Armenian literati in April 1915.

 

 

 

After living in Bulgaria (1914-1915) and then in Italy (1915-1921), where he developed and important literary career, while at the same time being actively involved in the promotion of the Armenian Cause, Zarian went back for the third and last time to Constantinople in 1921, to try to start once again a literary and intellectual movement. He co-founded a new journal, Partzravank, which lasted five issues, until June 1922.

 

 

 

The Kemalist movement disbanded the remnants of the Armenian intelligentsia, regrouped in Constantinople after the 1918 armistice. Many of them abandoned the city for good, Zarian among them. He accepted an invitation from the Armenian government to teach European literature at Erevan State University. In the subsequent years, he would write lengthily about his ambivalent experiences in Constantinople.

[Arpa]

You may want to visit the following site for more info. In the meantime the segment about Astuas. He can say it much better than I ever could.

 

http://www.angelfire.com/hi/Azgaser/AR.html

 

ASTUAS

Astuas(Astvats-arm.) is also one of the most ancient deities of the

Armenian people. This name is so old, that even though in later times,

due to various circumstances such as the adoption of foreign dieties in

Armenia, it ceased to be a proper name, rather than disappearing in

oblivian, however, it was preserved in the Armenian language as a

common noun, and is the most commonly used name for God in

Armenian lexicon.

 

In the last century a number of scholars, under the influence of the false

hypothesis that assumed Europe to be the homeland of the parent

Indo-European(Caucasian)language, have tried to connect the

Armenians with the Thraco-Phrygians. (In this effort they were swayed by

certain cultural similarities that could have existed between the latter and

the Armenians living in the neighboring Hyeasa-Tarhigama region in

Eastern Asia minor.)

 

Lead by this "migration" theory and based on interpretations of certain

old sources accomodated to it, they have made the Armenian word

Astuas derive from the name of the Phrygian deity Savazios.

 

Not mentioning for the moment a series of evidences that contradict this,

the derivation of Astuas, from Savazios becomes immensely difficult

even on phonetic grounds:to make the first syllable change from 'sav' to

'astu' is purely arbituary and baseless. We believe that, as mentioned

earlier, the divine name Savas(ios), like the Greek Zeus, is linked to the

name Sibis(Siwini)-Sabas(In the Ugarit inscriptions we find, as already

mentioned, Sapas (or Sabas) instead of the Eblaite or Sibis), whereas the

Armenian Astuas, which comes from very remote antiquity, has no

relationship at all with Savaz(ios).

 

The Astuas of the Armenian people was a deity of fire. This divine name

(Astu-as) is a Nairian(Armenian) word and it is not unlikely that in the

remote past it may have been connected to the Assyro-Babylonian word

Isatu which meant 'fire'. Astuas, as the principal national deity of the

Armenians (Hayk-Haldi), was the greatest of all gods ans as the father of

all was elevated to heaven.

 

In the Achaemenian period the Armenians adopted Ahura-Mazda,who

replaced Astuas in the Armenian pantheon, but by changing the name

Ahura to Ara, the name of their national god, they armenianized him and

called him Ara-mazd(Aramazd), reserving the name Ormizd to the real

Ahuramazda adopted from the Pahlavi forms Hormizd and Ormizd.

 

During the Hellenistic period, introduced in Armenia by the Artashessian

dynasty, Astuas became identified with "Dios-Zeus,the father of gods,the

creator of heaven and earth," and when Christianity came, he was

identified with Jehovah as the heavenly father and the creator of all

things.

 

It seems natural that in Armenia, after the days of Urartu, when Astuas

would cede his place successively to Aramazd, Dios-Zeus, and Jehovah,

the name Astuas would cease to be a proper name and would be

retained in the language merely as a common noun for God.

 

The name Astuas (Astu-as), as the name of native deity of fire is

connected with the word -astu-(fire) which is commponent of

Ur-astu(=Ur-Artu), the name of the country(Urartu/Hurartoon), and

Asti-sat, the name of the city that was the greatest religious center of

fire(sun)-worshipping Armenia.

 

This sanem name Astu-as is also encountered in the divine names

Unag-astuas and Astupini(Astu-pinu), belonging to Hyeasa and

Subarians, respectively. It is clear, therefore, that the attempt to derive

the Armenian Astuas from the Phrygian Savazios, as well as the

'migration' hypothesis of the Armens, must be considered as outdated

misconceptions.

 

The component -astu- of the name Astuas (or Astu-as) is a dialectal

variant of the component -artu- of the name Ur-artu, with -r>s- transition.

It follows, then, that Astuas is just a variant of the name Haldi-Aldi or

Ardi(Artu>Astu) and is equivalent and synonymous to it.

 

The form -artu-(Ur-artu) as a variant of -astu- (Ur-astu)is not an

uncommon occurence in Armenian. In some Armenian dialects -s-

replaces -r- before dental plosives. For example, in the Hamshen dialect

the word -mardik-(people) is pronounced as -masdik-, and -kertan- is

pronounced as -geston-; in the Hadjen dialect, -kert'ayi>gasti(both

meaning 'to leave'); in the Nakhijevan dialect, -mard>mast- and

-morti>mosti(both meaning 'skin'), etc.

 

Evidently,in the Behistun inscriptions,writing Ur-astu, instead of Ur-artu,

was not a scribal error; it existed in the speech of the people. A futher

evidence is supplied by the name Tstuni(erstu-ni)which preserves the

memory of Urastu(=Urartu). All these confirm that the name Ur-astu

contains the divine name Astu(as).

[MosJan]

Arpa jan iys amen@ haskanali e ( vorosh chapov ) chnayats vor aveli e moloretsnum indz - qich heto k@rkin k@kardam yerevi aveli parz klini.

 

 

 

Harts #1 - mer Hiyk Nahapet@ inch kronq uner ???

 

 

Harts#2 - yerb asum enq Hye - kam Hye Azg - inch ne n@ran drsevorum Hye - n@ra azgutyun@? - k@ron@? - patkaneliutyun@? - tsn@ndavayr@? - te naxnineri t@sn@ndavayr@.

 

Harts #3 - ka ardyoq mer nerkayis AVetaranum - Azg - Yerkir - Haskatsutyun ?? Vorqanov e Avetaran@ yev kam mer nor k@takaran@ n@pastum mer Hye Azgi yev Hayastan ashxarhi pahpanman@ ? - Azgn e k@ron pahum te k@ron@ azgin ???

[Sasun]

Arpa, I understand that we had a different religion before Christianity and it should be remembered. We should take whatever good it offered and reject whatever wrong it offered. I have heard on different forums about Armenism, but nobody was able to clearly define it. Mostly it is presented as Nazism. Nazism is a very wrong path. You may call it a "nazism crap" but it is a dangerous thing. Not only it is wrong morally, it is also a loosing strategy. I don't need to give you an example. And no, Nazism is not self-preservation, it is rather self-destruction. Show me a prosperous nation that is Nazi.

 

There was no Armenism in the past, it is being cooked up now for political goals. They want to use it as a tool to enhance the morale of the Armenian nation. The underlying reason is the wrong assumption that our failures have come from Christian religion. That is not quite so. There is not much evidence that Christian values played any role in our failures. In some instances you could say, for example that during the genocide village churchmen preached obedience based on Christian values. That is the only case where you can blame religion. But that is not the true meaning of Christianity, Christ has never said that you should let others kill you.

 

When we go back in the history and analyse without prejudice, we will see that our failures came from the mistakes and selfishness of the nobility at the time. There is absolutely no indication that we lost our independence because of Christian values. I am convinced that had our leaders been truly Christian we would be a prosperous nation today.

 

We don't need to invent a new religion. Who is our enemy? Our enemy is not Christ. Our enemy is greed, selfishness, arrogance, lack of integrity, dishonesty, lack of love and respect to each other, lack of compassion - all things that result from lack of spirituality, and all things that are denounced by true Christianity.

 

And what is your problem with Jehovah? It is just one name of the universal God.

[Nvard]

I don't know for what goals is this pagan stuff made up today, but it's sick.

Every nation has to pass this pagan step, we did it 1702 years ago.We're in a different palce now. We've lived through it, oh come on. I do not deny that it was our ancient culture, and I respect it, since it MADe our nation, but this deffinitly not what we need today.

 

What will be the next "invention"? Smth. like " lets go back to true armenian tribalizm?"

[Arpa]

I don't know for what goals is this pagan stuff made up today, but it's sick.

Every nation has to pass this pagan step, we did it 1702 years ago.We're in a different palce now. We've lived through it, oh come on. I do not deny that it was our ancient culture, and I respect it, since it MADe our nation, but this deffinitly not what we need today.

 

What will be the next "invention"? Smth. like " lets go back to true armenian tribalizm?"

Sasun, it seems you don't know the difference between all the gods.

Jehovah is NOT another name for the universal god, it is a specific god of a specific people even if on the surface it has come mean the same. Even Jehovah is many different gods in the very Book where it is depicted. All one has to do is read the Bible and follow the evolution. Without getting into details, on first meets Him in te book of Exodus where he is depicted as "jealous", "vindictive", "warlike", "unforgiving" and the private god of His own people. If we follow your logic then we must also accept Allah another name for that same god. In fact when Armenians used the Turkish language in their worship they used "allah" to mean god/Astuac. Is He the same? I will let theologians tackle that question.

Does it not seem that each nation, each religion, even fragments of the same religion have their own concept of a god?

 

Which brings us to Nvard's indignation.

 

This whole thing is being lost in the enormous noise that it has created.

I am not, neither do I think those others are advocating abandonning our present god in exchange for another, they are not saying anymore than Simanato when he said,.... see above.

Regardless what we have learned or think there are as many godds as there are people. I was rudely awakened to this fact when during the first Gulf War Pres. Bush (Sr) invoked the name of God as Saddam was invoking Allah. Are they the same gods?

Within the same religion, even withing the sane sect/denomination people will invoke a god, suppose two families belonging to the same religion/sect feuding and esach in their turn calling on Astuac to be on their side. God must be having a big laugh!!!

Nobody is advocating a new religion a new god. If and when that happens imagine the confusion, if you theink we were confused 1702 years ago, think again. We are confused, we have been for the 17 centuries, or even longer. I may have said this before; Apriest of the Apostolic Church, during a private moment confided in me (to make a long story short): "What does tjat Jew Jesus have to do with the Armenian Church"??? You be the judge.

All one is saying, billions of other people profess to believe in God/Jehovah yet very few of them have totally yielded their destiny to Him. Many people go to war invoking God/Allah/Jehovah knowing full well that they must do the actual work using God only as an ispiration.

Noone is advocating replacing Astuac, only that we redefine Him as to our needs.

Yes Sasun Jehovah is the property of certain people our God is Astuac, no matter if He has come to mean Jehovah, we must once again learn to have HIM to work for US, oe learn to work in partnership, we do our part and let Him do His.

The Heroes of Artsakh may have rediscovered our original god when went to war invoking His name, when they had priests bless their Kalashnikovs yet they did not extend their necks hoping that Astuac will miraculously jam the Kalash's of the enemy.

 

That is the God we are talking about.

 

Each nation, every one of us of the 6 billion have their own concept of a god that is best suited for their need...

 

Which one of them will meet OUR need???

 

One needs a new religion less than a big hole in the head (if we even need one), let's make the best of what we have. When God created us (some believe it) he gave us a brain, two arms and two legs. Let us use them as it was intended, lest he come back and ask us what we have done with all the talent he endowed us with. To better understand who and what God is read the Bible again this time paying special attention to the Parable of the Talents, Matthew Ch. 25 starting at verse 18.

Whose falt is it when we cannot read the Book as it was intended?

[Sasun]

Arpa, sorry to say this but your views conflict each other and you don't make sense, at least to me. You call the Bible a stupid book, but you also advise me to read it. You refer to Kalashinikov as our real God. You think that "those people" and you are not advocating to abandon our present God, but both you and "those people" have repeatedly spoken against Christianity and Jesus. I don't think you understand what you are talking about. Don't take this personally but God, spirituality, religion are much-much bigger that your understanding (i.e. that we should make it work for us, etc. You were also saying "who needs gods"... puzzling).

 

I don't mean to say that I understand it all. But I am sure that someone who truly believes in God will not call some other name/concept of God an idiot, etc. Finally, my friend, if you don't want to believe in the Jew Jesus, then believe in the Armenian Jesus if there is such. But please be careful in what you are saying regarding about other peoples religion and spirituality.

[Basterman]

WWW.LOGIAURARTU.ORG.AR

 

VIVA EL IMPERIO URARTIANO!!!

 

 

http://www.virtualani.freeserve.co.uk/fire.../firetemple.htm

 

THE INMORTAL FIRE OF THE YERAKOOYN!!!

[Armen]

Institute for War & Peace Reporting

Aug 18 2004

 

ARMENIA: PAGAN GAMES

 

In a country normally associated with strong Christian identity, many are opting for the old gods.

 

By Karine Ter-Saakian in Garni

 

Standing on Mount Aragats, the high priest waited until the sun set his torch on fire so that it could be carried to the pagan temple of Garni. Thus began Navasard, one of Armenia's oldest and most popular holidays, celebrated every year on August 11.

 

According to legend, on this day the patriarch Hayk slew the tyrant Bel and freed his family and future generations of Armenians. The combination of athletics and ancient rituals makes Navasard reminiscent of the Olympic Games.

 

After the high priest clad in a red tunic faces the sun and sings a hymn to Vahagn, the festivities begin with young people singing and dancing, and playing at archery. Anyone wishing to join the pagan community is initiated in a "fire and sword" ritual, and then plants an apricot tree.

 

Although all this looks like time-honoured ceremony - this year is counted as the 9,588th since the birth of Vahagn, the supreme deity in the Armenian pagan pantheon - the festival is in fact a modern revival.

 

"We resumed celebrating ancient Armenian holidays in 1990," Slak Kakosian, the high priest of Armenia, told IWPR. "Before that, everything was banned. They sent me to the prison camps for two years for 'nationalism' in 1961, and forced me to emigrate to the United States in 1965. I only came back during the Gorbachev era."

 

Politically, the pagan community is affiliated with the Armenian Republican Party, whose philosophy is based on the teachings of Tsegakron, the Armenian pre-Christian religion.

 

But the latter-day pagans distance themselves from politics. Historian Ara Stepanian, who comes here from St Petersburg in Russia every year, said, "There's too much politics in people's lives already, and that's not good. The more people think about spiritual revival, the better their chances of survival."

 

He recommends that the Ukhtagir, or pagan scripture, should replace the Bible as every thinking Armenian's handbook.

 

"A thousand copies of the book are soon due out in print, and community members will hand them out to the people. It is not our intention to fully replace the Bible with the Ukhtagir, but Armenian people should know they did not descend from Noah, but that they lived here in the mountains of Armenia before the Flood," said Kakosian.

 

Armenia is commonly regarded as the world's first Christian state, following the conversion of King Tiridates in the year 301, and its religious identity has marked it out among its largely Muslim neighbours.

 

But pre-Christian sun-worship still lingers in the national consciousness. As well as the temple at Garni, Armenia also has its own prehistoric Stonehenge, known as Karaundj, or Singing Stones, in the south of the country. A sprawling structure with hundreds of standing monoliths, it was built 6,000 years ago as a temple of the sun, doubling as an astronomical observatory.

 

In a poll recently held by the Centre for Strategic and National Studies in Yerevan, 34 per cent of Armenians said they consider themselves Christian, 24 per cent said they were atheists, and 32 per cent declared themselves to be pagans. "The slight differences in percentages of believers proves that 1,700 years of Christianity have failed to eradicate the old faith in Armenia," said political commentator Eduard Enfiajian, also a member of the pagan community.

 

"In Armenia, many people identify religion with the church establishment. Not us. We have nothing against Christianity, but as a social institution, it is not acceptable to us. Religion is constitutionally separated from the state, but in reality, they teach Christianity even in kindergartens, not to mention schools, universities and the armed forces. To me, this is wrong; a person should be able to choose which

God he will obey."

 

The Armenian Apostolic Church takes an unusually relaxed view of its pagan competitors, considering its hostility to more recent evangelical groups.

 

"Unlike the new sects, they have nothing to do with Christianity," explained the Reverend Vagram Melikian, press spokesman for the Armenian church in Echmiadzin. "The Armenian Church has an unequivocal stance on sectarians, but we do not interfere in pagan affairs."

 

Some Armenians manage to combine sympathy for both the traditional Christian church and paganism. "The pagans are custodians of the old customs," explained Alexander Amarian, head of the Help Centre for the Victims of Destructive Cults,

which campaigns against other religious groups or "sects" as they are commonly called here. "The Armenian nation must remember its pre-Christian past, and Ara's Children [a pagan group] help them remember. They also support the Armenian Apostolic Church in its fight against destructive sects. A protest against sects was held recently. Freedom of worship is important, but we cannot give free rein to those sects that impinge on our national identity."

 

Many young people are getting involved in the pre-Christian rites. Anait, 20, joined the pagan community 12 months ago. "I like it here.

 

No one tells me what to do. They tell us about the Armenian history before Christianity, and give us books to read. It seems our people are returning to their ancient roots. Garni is a spiritual centre of cosmic significance. Paganism has no rigid rules or commandments," she told IWPR.

 

Anait, who is a medical student, wears a swastika sign around her neck. Her fellow students strongly disapprove. "For an Armenian, it is appropriate to wear a cross, not a Nazi symbol," said student Ruben. "If I had my way, I would ban all those sects and weird religions. Our church is much too tolerant of them."

 

"To most people, the swastika is a Nazi symbol, but that is not so," said Gagik Hairapetian, a pagan priest. "The swastika is a pagan symbol. Those young Armenians people who wear swastikas are no Nazis. Only an ignorant person identifies the swastika with Nazis."

 

A young army lieutenant, who asked not to be named, strongly agreed: for him the pagan ceremonies were all about Armenian patriotism. "I came to paganism quite consciously," he said. "I am convinced that this is the true Armenian faith, and that it helped us win the war [with Azerbaijan] I feel it in my bones."

 

Karine Ter-Saakian is a freelance journalist based in Yerevan

[Sasun]

and 32 per cent declared themselves to be pagans.

Doesn't this number seem unrealistic, mildly speaking?

 

"To most people, the swastika is a Nazi symbol, but that is not so," said Gagik Hairapetian, a pagan priest. "The swastika is a pagan symbol. Those young Armenians people who wear swastikas are no Nazis. Only an ignorant person identifies the swastika with Nazis."

 

Indeed, the world is too ignorant. Swastica is as holy as the cross. Hindus, Buddhists as well as other religions have used both swastica and cross (2 much related symbols) since ancient times.