Armenian Poetry

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
Dear Berj,

Please be more specific. I don't follow what you mean.

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MJ,

Every choice is being taken in some context. Choice is being made in case of existence of at least 2 items to chose from. Now, let's take "like this" and "like that" as these two items.

1."Like this": is labled as old, ineffective, degradating...
2."Like that": is being propagandised as modern, effective...

"Like that" has a strong backing from its source and is being introduced as the only item to chose from. It has a powerful advertising mashine, which is intentionally undermining the good sides of "like this", because "like this" can eventually transform into a new alternative item of choice in the future, making a strong competition for "like that". So currently we are in the stage where "like that" completely dominates the field, because at present it is strongly associated with profit. I ment to set favourable conditions, where the transformed "like this" will be also associated with profit and modernity and then introduce them as items to chose from.

Specific, isn't it.
Arayzhm

[Guest]

Berj,

 

My understanding is that you are defending the rights of “conservative” vs. “progressive” mentality and lifestyles in your last message. If I am wrong, please specify further. Let me just add that this struggle is taking place in USA, right now. Basically, about 30% of the population is Christian Conservative, about 30% is liberal, and the remaining 40% fill the space between them. Now what kind of country would you consider the US to be?

 

I am not the one to force or enforce neither one of them. I make my choice for myself, and don’t even ask for an advice which way to lean.

 

My only reservation has been that it was faulty to describe Armenia, as you would say poetically, “like this or like that.” Armenia always has been diverse, and even throughout the history has been a mix, but not a blend of Eastern and Western. I make this last distinction, because I think the East and the West have existed in Armenia as two separate phenomena. In a way, as the famous Russian translator Valery Brusov has said, Armenia has been the filter between East and West, which is reflected even in Armenian poetry.

 

If you are talking about enforcing Western values in Armenia, I am not quite sure what you mean, since haven’t been in Armenia for about 10 years. Is that about the way people in Armenia dress up, the types of products they buy, is it about prostitution, is it about the Western style of business management, is it about Western style of governing, what is it that invites your strong protest?

 

Now, I feel we are getting away from the subject of Armenian Poetry

[Guest]

Dear MJ,

 

"Conservative" vs. "Liberal". And both of them can be "Progressive".

 

I am defending the right of conservatism to exist in Armenia. I know this issue is current in the US, but only the most ugly parts of that debate are being applied on Armenia and countries alike. It seems like we don't have the right to have this debate in the manner it is taking place in the most democratic state of all democracies. It is a kind of double standart. It goes to such extreams that it is becoming ridiculous. France has strong opinion against sects and is already working out a legislation on this. It is member of EU. We applied for a membership in EC, they force us to accept sects. They also force us to accept gay rights, knowing that the last thing the economy depends on its first stage of developent is gay rights. Why not to talk about this after 50 years when Armenia will become a rich country. No, they want it right now, being aware that it is a kind psychology rape for nations like us. It's just same as communism's "uravnilovka".

 

Yes, MJ, Armenia is diverse and I want her to keep that diversity.

[Guest]

Dear Berj,

 

Obviously, you know the current internal situation in Armenia better than I do, and I cannot argue with you on this subject. But I cannot possibly imagine that the rights of “conservatism” are threatened in Armenia. There is profoundly conservative segment of population in Armenia, there has always been one, and my understanding is that it is no way endangered minority.

 

In the times of major wars, I would agree that these types of discussions would be undesirable. If you consider that the country is in the mode of such a war, I wouldn’t argue with you. During the wars, the governments declare “Emergency situations,” and the democracy gets frozen. Things go to extremes, you say? What’s new about that? When and where doesn’t it happen? If it is wide spread, it is not extreme. If it is not wide spread, why to worry about it at all?

 

It seems like you bring two major arguments – sects and gay rights.

 

Regarding the sects, their spread is indicative of the weaknesses of the Armenian Apostolic Church, and its non-fulfilling of its mission for long time (see Hovhannes Tumanyan’s Parodia, or Ktak, for example). By in large, the sects are harmless institutions. By in large they consist of very admirable people, though frequently you may come across some leaders of theirs, who are as profit driven, as our own bishops, “vardapets,” and “kahanas.” In fact, I am glad they have entered the Armenian scene, because I think they will serve on the capacity of a sanitary for our Church, forcing it to reflect on its history and present, bring its act together, and serve its mission and function. Most of the sects are preaching the same Christianity, as the Armenian Church would’ve done, if it was serving its purpose (don’t want to reopen an old argument here). As a rule, the ordinary members of these sects have much more through understanding of Christianity, and the mystery of Christ’s crucifixion and resurrection, then our bishops, and their hearts are more open to Jesus then those of our Church. Sure, I don’t approve Jehovah’s Witnesses’ attempts to have the young maen to sabotage the army. Jesus has not preached this kind of sabotage. In fact, he has preached the opposite – Give to the Lord what belongs to the Lord, and to the Caesar what belongs to the Caesar. I don’t know what other sects operate in Armenia. You probably know it better.

 

As far as the gay rights are concerned, I have noticed you bring this issue back over and over. To be honest, I don’t understand why does it bother you this much. Do you think that accepting some basic norms on not persecuting the gays will promote and encourage gay lifestyle in Armenia? I am sure not. I, personally, don’t like their lifestyle, but what kind of business of mine is what two other men want to do with their lives? If they want to lock their door, and do with each other whatever they may think of, why should I feel persecuting them, and moreover, jailing them? If they sin in the eyes of God, let God take care of it. Do you think it was right for the Soviets to jail Paradjanov? (At least this was the rumor on why he was jailed.) Honestly, I don’t see how a legislation protecting the rights of gays from persecution may threaten the national security of Armenia, or its social fabric. Armenia may accept these norms, and in the mean time, accept another norm that “public expressions of sexual character, whether men or women, is against the law and is prosecutable” - something like this. Knowing Armenia, I believe the gays won’t come out of the closet, no matter what the EU may request Armenia to accept. What is that big issue here? If you are against accepting the norms of EU, is it going to stop gays from existing in Armenia? I think not, and I think that acceptance is not going to change anything in the lives of gays in Armenia.

 

“Yes, MJ, Armenia is diverse and I want her to keep that diversity.” Sounds great to me. That makes two of us

[Guest]

MJ,

 

Note: Here is the example I was talking about in the "My cousin is dating race" topic.

 

Well MJ, if my information on the current internal situation of Armenia is worth giving credit...

 

The conservatism in Armenia is transforming into a mutant. Because it's narrowing down to the population of the suberbs of Yerevan and villages. I think that's the segment you're talking about. The main carrier of our national idiology (it's obscure but it exists) and motor of our nation and state (and generaly in all states) is intellegentsia, administrative and cultural. Conservatism is losing its base on this level. The new thing that comes is not liberalism, it is a mutant too. Our so called liberals are becoming liberals for money not for the way they think. Today they speak about strong national values, tomorrow about globalisation, and when media notes to them "You've said the opposite thing yesterday", the answer is smth. like "I'm being constructive". But in reality they are being destuctive, because the whole population is listenning to them, and the big part of it is not getting any single idea what is going on. So lot of people already do not care what goes on. Can you (I don't meen you MJ) declare an emergency situation for a demoralised population. Can you imagine that socialist dashnak's voted in favour of energy network privatisation. Well, maybe I would do that to, but that's out of their party's programme. The same is with all other parties. Everyone is being "constructive" depending on his pocket. That's why the people are losing their hope. And you can sort out what will happen to us if we lose hope.

 

The sects currently operating in Armenia are nothing like ones which are having teological disputes. The main idea is money. They just buy their believers. If you say it's illegal, EU starts roaring. One of that preachers came to my house. Well sure he got nothing by making big eyes and acting like a messia. He ended up in logical deadend and offered me 100 USD.

 

In the current situation of Armenia talking about gay rights is ridiculous. Why not to have that dispute when the people will not be hungry. That makes me think that economic development of Armenia is not what EU wants. It's not that I don't understand that gays are just sick and you can't kill them for that.

 

MJ, so, agree with me on this subject without reservations.

Arayzhm

[Guest]

Berj,

 

I am troubled by what you describe, but cannot agree without reservations on some of your points.

 

I suspect that the demoralization of the population is not resulted from the cultural decline, but the opposite way. I would think that the population is demoralized because their heroes of yesterday became their plunderers and their exploiters of today. I would've been demoralised myself living in this situation. The cultural decline is an aftermath of the social decline, the nihilism and cynicism, I think.

 

With all due respect to its good members, ARF is a mutant organization itself. Why to be surprised by their behavior. But, on the other hand, the political organizations consist of our people. Their members don’t come from the Heaven, but from the Armenian households.

 

So, you say the sects corrupt the population of Armenia. That’s too bad. But given the poverty of the population, what kind of sense does it make for them to go after Armenia, if their sole interest is the money? It seems, to the contrary, they are offering money to the population I am just kidding here, but again, these sects are represented by our own Armenian people, right? Or was it an American missioner that came to your house?

 

About the gay rights, again Why to have a dispute about them at all? Just pass that damn law on non- persecution and non-prosecution, and forget about them...

 

I think it is reasonable for EU to expect that Armenia is going to accept and implement its norms, if Armenia is to become a member of the EC, and other European organizations. After all, they are not asking Armenia to join them, but Armenia is asking to be accepted, right?

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by MJ:
Berj,

But what does it matter who passes the gay rights bill? Is it such a big deal in Armenia? As far as I know, it is from the category "who cares."

I also think that our poor nation has had enough shocks in the last 12 years. Spare them

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MJ jan,

1.It matters because it will be passed by a "sick" NA. It's the same as to let the criminals to work out the Criminal Code.
2.If it's "who cares" then "what for". EU? It needs us as much as we need it, if not more.

I think a woman president of Armenia is the shock therapy in my previous message

Arayzhm

[Guest]

Dear MJ,

 

The mutant thing is not only our opinion, just look at this:

 

RFE/RL Armenia Report - 10/10/2000

"Psychiatrist Vardges Davtian presents to "Haykakan Zhamanak" findings

of his visual study of Armenian parliamentarians' behavior. He says at

least 20 deputies are suffering from "male hysteria," eight deputies

from "maniacal depressive psychosis," while several others from

different forms of schizophrenia. Davtian gives no names, saying only

that more and more lawmakers are having mental problems. This may lead

to a situation where "the state is in the hands of sick persons, while

the people are in deep depression, unable to deal with that

schizophrenia," the psychiatrist warns."

 

MJ, I hoped I was wrong but these are not only my personal views. In normal states National Assembly consists of the best-best high class healthy thinking elite. In our case it consists of phsycoes. What would you do in this case? Isn't it the time to declare emergency situation?

 

The missioner was an Armenian.

Gay rights...let's not ridicule ourselvs. If they pass the legislation secretely and put the law on some dusty shelf, there will be no harm. But who is going to pass it MJ, they are sick, man! EU wants us to "enjoy the party when the plague is on the streets".

 

I think there are 2 ways out:

1. Shock therapy

2. Woman president of Armenia

 

Arayzhm

[Guest]

Berj,

 

I don't have any significant arguments with you regarding your last message.

 

I don't know if it is the time to declare emergency. That's up to the President of Armenia, I guess.

 

But what does it matter who passes the gay rights bill? Is it such a big deal in Armenia? As far as I know, it is from the category "who cares."

 

You might remember that in the past, I have supported the idea of woman president in Armenia.

 

I also think that our poor nation has had enough shocks in the last 12 years. Spare them

[Guest]

Berj,

 

It seems you feel very emotionally about this issue. So I'll stop here

 

I think also that you are a little exaggerating claiming that EU needs us as much as we need them. Believe me, nobody needs us.

[Guest]

Dear MJ,

 

It's pitty that after all this analysis you came to a conclusion that my emotions have anything to do here.

 

MJ, open market economy develops by expanding, so, they need us.

[Guest]

Berj, which analysis?

 

Your observation on the expansion of free markets may be theoretically correct, but in the case of Armenia, given the lack of purchasing capacity of the population for long time to come, the absence of modern industrial infrastructures, the absense of proper free market culture, makes it practically inconclusive. But I, personally, am hopefull, though...

 

It is interesting that we started with Armenian poetry, and winded up with EU's expansion, with the purpose of colonization of Armenia, through introduction of gay rights and sects

[Guest]

MJ,

 

The analysis of the current situation of Armenia. If you want smth profi, it's not free of charge, if you suppose it's bad, don't make public evaluations in advance

 

Well, yes if we take that Armenia is an isolated territory without regional territorial significance it is a theory. If we do some additional thinking (please do it in the future), we will see that it is a gate to a huge region with huge population, purchasing capabilities of which can hardly be underminded by any major economic player.

[Guest]

smilies/smile.gif

[Guest]

Perfect discussion, gentlemen. Absolutely charming

[Guest]

[This message has been edited by Ararat (edited November 27, 2000).]

[Guest]

Ararat jan Merciner Shat hetaqrqir Link er .

[Guest]

The Times Literary Supplement

September 29, 2000

 

A Land for Laments

 

Book review by John A. C. Greppin

 

Kevork B. Bardakjian. A Reference Guide to Modern Armenian Literature,

1500-1920. With an introductory history. 714 pp. Wayne State University

Press; distributed in the UK by Eurospan. 42.50 British pounds. TLS 40.50

British pounds. ISBN: 08143 2747 8.

 

 

Armenian literature began in the fifth century AD with a superb translation

of the Bible, which was followed by original prose works covering various

phases of Armenian history. Soon after, there were learned liturgical

commentaries, either originally in Armenian or translated into Armenian from

Greek and Syriac. Early poetry was largely devotional, and prose was written

mainly in the graceful Classical Armenian. A fine poet of the tenth century,

Gregory of Narek, who was something of a mystic, stood alone in the quality

of his work.

 

There is some evidence for an early oral literature, especially the David of

Sassoun epic, for which we find the first reference in the six- teenth

century. At this time Armenia suffered from a dark age that had begun after

the Arab invasions of the seventh to the tenth centuries, and was made worse

by the Mongol devastation of the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. The

original literature of the sixteenth century was largely composed by monks,

and contains, for example, certain Christian epistles in verse by Vrtanes

Srnketsi, who explained the despair brought to Armenia as a warning by God.

Others combined devotion with joy, celebrating wine, not only as symbolic of

Christ's blood, but also as a source of merriment as well. This literature

lacks discipline, being self-indulgent and derivative, and rarely rising

above the mundane. One exception is the work of Nahapet Kouchak, who died in

1592. In A Reference Guide to Modem Armenian Literature, 1500-1920, Kevork

B. Bardakjian describes his poetry as frank and witty, and it has been much

translated in our time. Consider this: "Plant four seeds in your heart and

reap a fair garden. / Four admonitions keep evil away. / Don't analyse other

people's sins. Examine your own. / Keep God on your shoulder. Remember

death's day." (The translations given in this review are from Diana Der

Hovanessian's Anthology of Armenian Poetry, 1978.)

 

Most scholars consider sixteenth-century Armenian writing as a continuation

of the "doom and gloom" period. Bardakjian, however, sees this as a

transitional era; he maintains that economic instability, demographic shifts

and the eclipse of centres of learning broke many of Armenia's links with

its past, and when the literature was reborn, its form was necessarily

different, based far less on the tradition of the past centuries, much of

which had been destroyed. This is an interesting view, but surely the

seventeenth century was to bring the same old devastation. The Turkish

Jelali revolts raged on, continuing the destruction of eastern Anatolia, the

centre of Armenian culture. Poets wrote unoriginal verse about God and

nature. Note the barren quality of an "Ode to Spring" by Naghash Hovnatan:

"Spring is here. The sun rises. / The wind from the south melts the snows. /

The earth greens and the tree blossoms." Although the Renaissance was

nearing its close in Europe, it is questionable if it had even begun in

Armenia's seventeenth century. Yet there were improvements. More than two

dozen authors, largely in the second half of that period, produced works

worthy of being widely copied and which therefore survived. Historical

writings included Yeremia Komurjian's numerous annals; he also wrote the

first Armenian history of the Ottoman Empire, beginning with Osman and

concluding in the year 1678, during the reign of Mehmed IV (1648-87).

Komurjian used Ottoman sources, and some shorter chronicles in the Armenian

language, but, in describing Mehmed's glorious reign, he drew on his own

knowledge and experiences.

 

Possibly the most famous historian of that period was Arakel Dawrizetsi, who

wrote in a lexically corrupt Classical Armenian. He described the years

1602-62, and dwelt on the effects of the still-continuing Jelali revolts on

the Armenians, and further discussed the fate of those who had migrated

north from Anatolia, taking their communities to Romania, the Ukraine and

Poland. Dawrizetsi was also one of the first to write straightforwardly on

corruption in the Armenian Catholic Church, and this gave rise to efforts to

suppress his work. Religious writing continued, and was now more focused

than the earlier mystical musings. A certain Hovhannes Jughayetsi wrote a

scholarly interpretation of the Armenian communion rite, noting the

uniqueness of the Armenian Gregorian tradition, while showing its

differences from the various Orthodox rituals, and especially the Catholic

rite, which had begun to intrude into Armenian consciousness in Anatolia.

And new genres were developing One was the travel guide, the best known of

which was writ- ten by Simeon Lehatsi. Lehatsi, as Bardakjian points out,

had a desire to tour "foreign and unknown regions,” which included

pilgrimages to Jerusalem, Rome and the monasteries in Armenia. Though

Bardakjian considers Lehatsi a naive observer, his narratives provided not

only valuable information for the traveller, but delight for those who read

him without having to endure the exertion of medieval foot travel, the filth

of the caravanserais and the constant fear of highwaymen.

 

By the eighteen century, printing was becoming relatively common, and there

was less reliance on the manuscript tradition. The Armenians in Madras,

India, printed the first Armenian periodical, Azdarar, in 1794, and the

Armenians, though largely still under Ottoman or Persian rule, were now more

worldly; many were emigrating to Europe for trade, and even on to the New

World. However, with the expansion of printing, and the wider audience it

brought, the writer's awareness of his audience increased. Poetry was less

personal and indulgent, historians began to use more anecdote to enrich

their observations, and things were simply becoming more literary. There was

only one major poet of this century, Sayat Nova, and he was more of a

troubadour, performing at the Georgian court in Tbilisi; equally he was at

home in the Armenian, Georgian and Azeri languages. His poetry was oriental

in character, showing none of the Western influence that was beginning to

permeate the Armenian consciousness, especially in Istanbul and the Armenian

centres in Italy, an influence that would grow in the nineteenth century.

 

Lord Byron was a favourite, and was translated into Armenian, as were other

European Romantic poets. And it is here that we begin to divide

nineteenth-century Armenian literature into two branches, that of the

Eastern dialect, spoken in Armenia and Persia, and that of the Western

dialect spoken in Turkey and in Armenian colonies in Italy, Egypt, Cyprus,

Lebanon, Syria and Eastern Europe. The Armenian novel appeared. At first the

plots used historical themes. Mesrop Taghiadian wrote an early novel based

on the life of Vep Vardgisi, a folkloric figure from the pre-Christian

period, but Bardakjian notes that it was also heavily influenced by Heinrich

Zschokke's Aballino, der grosse Bandit. Elsewhere in eastern Armenia,

Khachatur Abovian, unwilling to abandon the "doom and gloom" school, wrote a

successful novel entitled The Wounds of Armenia. Abovian is considered the

father of modern Eastern Armenian literature, and was glorified during the

Soviet period, perhaps in excess of his merits. But his laments were welcome

to his readers, and remain so in Eastern Armenia. The literature of

nineteenth-century Armenia remains provincial and overly sentimental, not

approaching European standards, though some poets had merit in context. An

example is this quatrain by Raphael Patkanian, "Praise to the Sultan": "We

can never forget you, great sultan. / You have earned eternal fame / by

filling every calendar blank / with a new martyr's name."

 

The first half of the twentieth century showed little development over the

continuing dirge-like romanticism of the previous centuries. But the

Armenian poets knew by now their audiences. Siamanto addressed a

pre-Christian Armenian deity: "Goddess, I purge my conscience of all

slothful religions. / And I walk proudly in my sacred slippers toward you. .

. ." The short stories of Tumanian, sad things and surely over-sentimental

by our standards, none the less had power and inventiveness. Reading them in

Yerevan today would help the Westerner understand the Armenian world around

him, and bring intellectual stimulation as well, for within the Armenian

genre they have considerable power. There was little change in style during

the early Soviet period, though Western Armenian literature, that composed

especially by Armenians from Lebanon and Istanbul, began to take on a

European shape. Following the Second World War, several revolutionary

stylists, greatly influenced by New Criticism and the comparative literature

programmes of the Sorbonne, tried to reshape Armenian novels and poems. But

it was an unappreciated labour, almost too much for the traditional Armenian

reader to understand.

 

This splendid book is a near-complete bibliography of and commentary on

Armenian poetry and prose, including authors born during the 420 years from

the sixteenth century up to the beginning of the Soviet period in 1920. It

includes full information on published sources in Armenian, and further

details the bulk of critical writings on the Armenian authors. An effort is

made to list translations into such European languages as English, French,

German, Italian. Russian and Oriental translations into Arabic, Persian and

Turkish are rarely included, and the bibliography stops at the year 1990.

All Armenian names and terms are transliterated according to the Classical

dialect, but in places Bardakjian deviates from the standard Library of

Congress transliteration system. This reviewer found his neo-deviations

frequently puzzling and linguistically inconsistent. The book, though, is

superbly indexed, and once Bardakjian's transliteration scheme is mastered,

there are no problems locating pertinent data. Kevork Bardakjian has

prepared a weighty and solid handbook, meticulous in detail, broad-ranging,

and of the utmost usefulness. It will remain for decades on the desk of the

scholar and serious reader of Armenian literature.

[Guest]

MJ I get you now. ThanQ! I will go check it out and I will let you know about what I find/like.

[Guest]

Good luck!