Armenian Individualism

[abenlian]

Heros are born in the teeth of opposition. In Armenian history we have a plethora of examples where heros emerged. Often the heros are labeled as martyrs to a cause, but never examined on the basis of inner motivation. Thus, a conflict between the self created hero and the socially accepted view of heroism contracts.

 

Let's take the father of Armenian Christianity for example. St. Gregory the Illuminator was not concerned with social status, but devotion to a faith that he believed to be orthodox. Hence, his desire to reach any and every Armenian under the Sun to convert to Christianity.

 

To keep my arguement to a minimum I am inclined to think that St. Gregory's individual conviction and value system comes before the nation's acceptance or refusal. The nation, the society accepted and adopted the values of an individual whose passion overwhelmed the entire multitude.

 

I often hear people speak on behalf of a nation. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to disect the values and principles underlying the discussion and narrow it down to the individual responsible for the birth of that topic.

Thank you for reading my thoughts.

[MJ]

Thank you for posting your thoughts, Ambitious.

 

First, I would like to express a technical disagreement with your statement that “In Armenian history we have a plethora of examples where heroes emerged.” In fact, I think there aren’t many heroes in our history. Sure there is a plethora of martyrs, however. Whether we should even search for heroes or not is a different story, however. I personally think that the heroes are in the eyes of the beholder.

 

I also disagree that “The nation, the society accepted and adopted the values of an individual [st. Gregory – MJ] whose passion overwhelmed the entire multitude.” I think only a small fraction of the nation, better to say a small fraction of its ruling elite accepted it for more than 150 years. Only about 150 years later Christianity has became a recognizable trend phenomenon in Armenia. And by that time, I believe, there was nothing left of St. Gregory or genuine Christianity. Additionally, if we are to believe that St. Gregory was a genuine Christian, then his values should’ve been not “his” but of Jesus Christ.

 

And I fully agree with you that nobody should speak in the name of the nation, except its President. But in our particular case, the President can speak only in the name of the part of the nation, unfortunately.

 

I would also like to urge you to elaborate further your thoughts on the subject.

[abenlian]

MJ, I am glad that you differntiate between a hero and a martyr. Our nationally accepted "heros" are usually martyrs. And that is unfortunate.

 

The king in the name of the nation accepted Christianity, so there goes the nation. Of course, my observatioin is not a dogma and there are too many nuances to be concedered. And you are right that St. Gregory is a spokesman of Jesus Christ, nevertheless people experienced in reality the zeal of St. Gregory and only the works of the Holy Spirit in this man.

 

But aside from the religious circumstance the issue is Armenian individualism. I sense that each one of us is proud of a heroic heritage, but hide our individuality under the umbrella of national aweraness. How many times have you heard I am Christian because I was raised as one. Or, I was raised Armenian. No scientist, or polititian claims such a distinction. Those are self made men, usually.

 

As a group of individuals that form the nation of Armenians we should pay more attention to individual achievement and character in relation to the general engulfing the group. I think the opposite is prevelent among us. We identify with the nation first molding the individual attributes to fit the traditional view.

[MJ]

Ambitious,

 

I think most of the people, including our compatriots, when claiming “I am Christian, because I was raised as one,” don’t really mean Christianity in its spiritual sense of the word. They just think it is a good way of asserting their cultural affiliation. However, as we know, the Christianity is a whole different category, not directly related to any culture, though its roots trace to the Judaic culture and tradition.

 

I also think that the assertion “I was raised Armenian” doesn’t have much merit. If you would look at all differences that exist among Armenians, you would find that we are so different from each other, and there are so many different Armenian nations around that sooner or later someone feels tempted to pursue a search for the “Real Armenians.”

 

I see myself as a human being first, who happens to be Armenian. On such capacity, I am neither proud nor ashamed. That’s just who I am, and it feels right. No problems with that identity, nor any reasons to boost about it.

 

If we would look at our history with a critical eye, I think we can arrive to a conclusion that as a nation we don’t have much of achievements. In fact, as a nation we have failed on a large scale more than we have achieved anything substantial. Our achievements are exactly in the individual domain. The number of individual Armenians conquering unparalleled heights in the spiritual, scientific, cultural, etc, domains is quite large. And we have always achived very substantial achivements inside the structures of other nations, rather than our own. Hovhannes Tomanyan writes in one of his publicistic articles that "if Hovahhes Ayvazovski would've lived in Armenia, under the best scenario he would've become an art teacher of a local prisinct gymnasium."

 

Unconsciously, we even realize this fact on a national level. That’s why I think, we take pride not in our national achievements, but in this or the other historic figure or celebrity being Armenian, or having at least some Armenian ancestry.

 

As far as the assertion on our traditions is concerned, I find it being a ridiculous one. I don’t think that we have many of “our traditions.” A lot of our traditions are adopted from the Persians, Turks, Arabs, Russians, etc. There is very little in our traditions that we can claim to be “ours.” And it is natural. For the well dominant part of our history, we have been under the rule of other, stronger nations.

 

In general, I feel there is nothing more harmful to our future than our bond with our traditions. As I have claimed here few times, before, I see the traditions as a stone on the neck of the nation, dragging it down to the bottom.

 

If it was in my power, I would've said, “No more traditions! Just aspirations.”

 

[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[gamavor]

MJ,

 

I think this is a very good discussion and I hope more people will join.

I have only few objections.

I do not think our traditions are foreign or not Armenian. What happened during the centuries was inevitable cultural fusion. Take for example the turkish word "kef". In everyday Armenian the meaning of this word is different from what it is supposed to be in Turkish.

I'm not aware what part of our traditions are Turkish, Arabic or Russian. Persian, somewhere in the ancient past, yes. In the same time I can not disagree with you that there are lots of "arabatzadz yev turkatzadz shuner" out there who prefer the above mentioned cultures in terms of food, cloths, treatment of their wives, idiotic looking, cheep crooks, etc...and when you ask them who they are they will proudly tell you "Yes Hai Yem". This is our tragedy.

Suppose that Ayvazovski was French. Do you believe he would have been inclined to travel to some distant place to demonstrate his talent and genius. No. Geographically we were pushed to be creative and to take harsh decisions.

We are nation of “Kings and Queens”. Even in the simplest blue collar Armenian, somewhere deep in his psyche there is one sleeping “Great Getsby.” Nation of commanders, captains and no soldiers. Actually this is the Edip complex of every small nation. And in my view this is the main reason for our negativism, or rather nihilism. We readily will condemn any Armenian hero because he is not politically correct or simply because he is from different geographical location, or because we do not like his looks, or the fact that he is too fond of his brown shoes, for example.

 

I’m looking forward for more post on this subject.

[abenlian]

MJ, well said. Being a human overrides all other attributes that one could acquire throughout life. My hope is that there will be more individuals stop and think about who they personally are, regardless of their upbringing.

 

Traditions are product of individuals' actions and influence. Each one of us can start one -- today. Our ability to say I am rathar than we are makes us unique. But if there is nothing unique about the I it feels like a we. And that is what I have encountered among most Armenians.

[MJ]

Ambitious,

 

I think I understand you. And I think the issue at hand has/had overwhelming implications on the dynamics of the historic developments of the Armenian nation. This dichotomy of “I” vs. “We” may be traced to be a primary source of loses of the best Armenian minds and personalities to assimilation, for example.

 

The Armenian social establishment does not readily accommodate the “I,” unless it is strongly subordinated to the “We.” In some ways, perhaps, this is a universal phenomenon, since all the societies have a little bit of the mentioned dichotomy. But the harmony of these societies vs. their individuals depends on the measure in which the “We” wants to see the “I” dominated. I think this is indicative of one of the greatnesses of the American society.

 

This issue obviously takes us back to the subject of tradition. The justification of the suppression of “I” is frequently found in the argument, “Because our forefathers have done it this way, you should do it to.” But the fact is that in our case, as the facts come to demonstrate, our forefathers have done the things in a lousy manner, and they have inherited nothing but a universe of serious problems to us. Every other generation has to start building or attempting to build from the scratch, rather than building on the basis inherited by the “We.” What is it that makes us to gravitate towards the “We,” which means the status quo of the past, I cannot understand?

 

It makes me to conclude that the “We” has done something incredibly wrong and harmful for centuries. Then, one should find the most fundamental forms and attributes of the manifestation of the “We.” Then, it would be a simple logical exercise, I think, to understand where does the contradiction in our society, or better to say in our consciousness reside.

[Harut]

i have a question for you, great minds.

 

i agree that our nation needs a lot of changes. but are you saying that we should adopt a complete new lifestyle and forget everything we had/have in the past/present?

 

if it is so then are we (oh man, i mantioned "we" again) as a nation ready for that? are we capable of that? can we handle it? and not get apart and vanish among others.

[dragon]

Good question.

I will try to answer, knowing that my mind is not great as my passion

 

First, we (stands for Armenians and Armenian Nation(s) can creat nothing from nothing. This is an old ''song'', we used to sing every time we face surviving troubles. But by time we understand that by ignoring the past and screaming for the NEW we reach nowhere but to the another dark tunell. A very good example came to my mind: ''Yereki Deklaratsia'' for Charents, Apov and Vushduni, who were trying to creat new ideology for Armenian Literature by rejecting the past and our culture in general. What happened? Charents became national write number one, and the others gone with the wind, because they were not talentive either.

 

For your Q, my little mind tells that our Nation not only need changes in large, but is alredy seeking for a new image to survive, to live as an independent Armenian Land and Homeland, and all this can be reality if we keep all the goods of past, traditions, values and try to adjast them to the spirit of new century, to our daily needs and lifestyle.

 

In general, till now we were living a ''fake'' life (In Armenia, then in Diaspora), where outside and inside were different, sometimes even opposite. Now the time has come, to be able to creat armenian stable (I would say ''havasaragshrvadz''...I forgot the English word) life, where in and out match better.

[abenlian]

The issue of I vs. We is not a methaphysical but rather epistemological. The I signifies the individual's convictions within his/her surroundings. Of course, that individual will have learned the alphabit thanks to St. Mesrob Mashtotz, and will not be required to create a new one.

[dragon]

If your sarcasm is addressed to me, then feel happy to creat a new Armenian nation the way your ambition calculate and cut. Let me see what can you do. What can MJ do, after he throws away the ''stone'' of the past.

 

For me, I'm happy with my language, which is my real Homeland for now. I can creat the life I want in my language. I'm not in need to become an odar in my language too. I have given only this much little, and I'm gonna protect the little, to be able make it grow, flourish, enlarge.

 

This is my faith, I am one of the saviors of Western Armenian language. Americans, russians and all other races don't need me, they have lots of like me, even if one day I become bilangual writer. I have no intention to ignore my past, my diasporan birth, my Cause, my Language and my current Homeland.

At the same time, I'm trying to learn every good thing odars have, created, practice.

 

Feel free to call me nationalist, racism, or whatever. I don't mind, because I'm feeling good inside, for being armenian.

[Harut]

balanced

[dragon]

Thanks Harutik! Lots of

for YOU!

[Harut]

BRAVO!!!


and for the other one, i accept the kisses.
no problem.

[dragon]

YOU welcome. Anytime

[MJ]

To answer you [rhetoric]question, I don't know what I can do. I don't know if there is anything I would succeed in doing. But "I have seen what you have done, and I have experienced it. I don't want any more of it."

Also, keep doing what you are doing. Some day you may need writing for the "odars" that MJ (allegoric "MJ")was Armenian. And it may make you feel good inside, especially that it will make them learn that you are Armenian, too.

[Harut]

BRAVO!!!

don't blame me. i have nothing to do but clap.

[dragon]

Hola~~~~!!!

Don't feel lonely Harutik! Everybody is here!!!