Azat Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 Many of you may have seen this site. I just saw it for the first time today. Very powerful pictures. http://www.opensciencenetwork.org/theblackday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 What about the thousands of Afghans that have died or are about to die from US bombing, sanctions and starvation? Are they less human? And what about the 1 million Iraqi children? NOT 6000, BUT 1 MILLION Why cant the Afghan live the way they want to live? WHY MUST WE ALL LIVE AS AMERICA COMMANDS? FOR IF WE DONT WE SHALL BE BOMBED AND STARVED TO DEATH [ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Juggernaut ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bellthecat Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut:What about the thousands of Afghans that have died or are about to die from US bombing, sanctions and starvation? Are they less human? And what about the 1 million Iraqi children? NOT 6000, BUT 1 MILLIONVery true!It seem that one black day in America is worth more than a century of black days for everyone else. The vile arrogance of America sometimes beggars belief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 7, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut:What about the thousands of Afghans that have died or are about to die from US bombing, sanctions and starvation? Are they less human? And what about the 1 million Iraqi children? NOT 6000, BUT 1 MILLIONWhy cant the Afghan live the way they want to live? WHY MUST WE ALL LIVE AS AMERICA COMMANDS? FOR IF WE DONT WE SHALL BE BOMBED AND STARVED TO DEATH[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Juggernaut ]BlabberNuts, Why dont you create a site and post a link here if you care so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilafhead Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut:Why cant the Afghan live the way they want to live? They were until 9/11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted November 7, 2001 Report Share Posted November 7, 2001 quoteThey were until 9/11. Actually they were allready starving from drought and sanctions quoteWhy dont you create a site and post a link here if you care so much. If I had the capabilities and time, then I surelly would make an anti-American site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 quote:Originally posted by Juggernaut:If I had the capabilities and time, then I surelly would make an anti-American site.Sure. If you cannot make "pro-something" site, and still want to claim "recognition," all you are left with is to make an "anti-somethin-else" site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 MJ, I think I have been misunderstood. The vast majority of the Armenian forumers here live in the States, and like yourself have been pumped by propaganda. I only seek to bring to light some of the more negative aspects of America, which many of the people are not aware of. If I was at a forum filled with anti-American forumers, then I would bring to light some of the positive things America has achieved. Although this does not mean that I am not essentially 'anti-American', what I am saying is that I am aware of both sides of the argument, and I believe the negative to outweigh the positive. Therefore all I am saying is that I am trying to create a balance and make people aware and the only reason for your presence in this forum (as I see it) is to insult and debase those who do not agree with your point of view. You do not even attempt to try and 'educate', only insult with flamboyant words and phrases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 To MJjan and Juggernautjan lets end this, it's not duing any good for us... Movses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJ Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 quote:Originally posted by MosJan:To MJjan and Juggernautjan lets end this, it's not duing any good for us...MovsesMy pleasure, MosJan. After all, turns out all he is trying to say is "Let it be light!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 8, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 Juggernaut, If you feel that those of us here in the states do not know about the negative things about US, you are wrong. I know all the skeletons that are in our closet. But I also know it is the best country for ME at the current stage of my life. This is also true from majority of others who are in US. Everyone here has the opportunity to get what they wish and US provides the fastest path for anyone to get to what they wish for. The problem that I have with your comments is that you make US sound like this evil empire that never has done anything good. True that are the 800 pound gorilla of the world today, but I am afraid of the opposite situation if US was not. Who would it be? China? Russia? UK? As to your comment from another threat where you offered not to post if moderators wished. I would say that I have disagreed with you and few others on this forum and have sometimes allowed my emotions to get the best of me as I am sure you have as well, but I would not want anybody to stop posting. I feel that we all add alot of value to the forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 quoteI know all the skeletons that are in our closet. You may know, but I still believe many are not aware, and the media does little to inform. And there probably still are State secrets that will never be revealed to the public (but are not a threat to national security). quoteBut I also know it is the best country for ME at the current stage of my life. This is also true from majority of others who are in US. Mmm, this is arguable, but the US probably is one of the best places for one to live ie. the standard of living is very high. Nevertheless, money and opportunitty ARE NOT the most important things in life. quoteyou make US sound like this evil empire that never has done anything good. I do believe that the world has sometimes benefited from US. For example if the US did not help the Allies in WW1, then the Axis would have most probably won allowing the Turks to wipe out the rest of us. But I still sincerely think more good came out of the Soviet Union than the US. And Reagan called the USSR the 'evil empire'. So what does that make the US? quotebut I am afraid of the opposite situation if US was not. Who would it be? China? Russia? UK? People are afraid of what they dont know and what is beyond their control and/or influence. If the whole of the Western Hemisphere dissapeared right now, it is most likelly that the EU would dominate the world in the West and China in the East. Frankly, I believe the EU would make a much more benevolent superpower. And China throughout history has always kept to itself, content with its neighbors expressing symbolic tribute every now-and-then. quoteI feel that we all add alot of value to the forum. If everyone agreed if everyone else, then there wouldnt be much of a forum . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 8, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 ...media does little to inform. The media in US and few other countries where 'ratings' is their main driving point says whatever most people want to hear. In US they swing from one end of the spectrum to the other as the mindset of the people changes. And there probably still are State secrets that will never be revealed to the public (but are not a threat to national security).IF they are not a threat, you and I are suppose to be able to dig all of it out. I only say suppose to because I personally have not done this myself. But there are plenty of books written by authors who dig out things that we all find amazing. Like recently There was an article that showed the case of "small pox" being spread on Native American Indians via blankets that the government use to pass. Nevertheless, money and opportunitty ARE NOT the most important things in life.Somebody has been lying to you when they said that money is not the most important thing in life. I do believe that the world has sometimes benefited from US. For example if the US did not help the Allies in WW1, then the Axis would have most probably won allowing the Turks to wipe out the rest of us. This is a different subject, I do feel that we possibly would not have had WW2 if the US had not gotten involved in WW1. US had no right to get involved and there was absolutely no reason according to our constitution or specific harm on US being done in US. But because of the heavy punishment on Germany from US and allies in WW1, Germans developed a lot of resistance and Nazi movement got more powerful and the rest is history. You are right though when it comes to Armenia. Had US not gotten involved, more Armenians would have suffered. But I still sincerely think more good came out of the Soviet Union than the US.This I completely disagree with. There were a lot of great scientists that were educated under the Soviet system. Including in Armenia. However their knowledge was never allowed to be used to it correct potential. Frankly, I believe the EU would make a much more benevolent superpower. And China throughout history has always kept to itself, content with its neighbors expressing symbolic tribute every now-and-then.Maybe EU as a whole, but individuals EU countries have tons of skeletons in their closets as well.Ask Japan about Chinas behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted November 8, 2001 Report Share Posted November 8, 2001 quoteThe media in US and few other countries where 'ratings' is their main driving pointYes, I am aware of this. quoteSomebody has been lying to you when they said that money is not the most important thing in life.I believe the most important thing life is what I call 'satisfaction'. If on your deathbed (provided one lives to their natural death), one is not satisfied with their life, then no matter how filthy rich they are, it will all be in vain. In this sence, people in the USSR (after WW2) had a better life than those in the US. And this is all important. quoteI do feel that we possibly would not have had WW2 if the US had not gotten involved in WW1.WW2 would have taken place if the Allies had won with or without US support. In fact the presence of President Wilson at the negotiations ensured that Germany's punishment was not as severe as could have possibly been. If US was not involved, then Germany would have probably won, but the war would have gone on for much longer. quoteBut because of the heavy punishment on Germany from US and allies in WW1Contrary to popular belief, Germany was severly punished for WW2 also. Just look at the European map and notice the large chunk of German territory given to Poland including Eastern Prussia. Not mentioning the East/West division and the fact that the whole country was in ruins. quoteThis I completely disagree with. There were a lot of great scientists that were educated under the Soviet system. Including in Armenia.Its not just about scientific advancements, but also economic and psycological aid and many other factors. quote:but individuals EU countries have tons of skeletons in their closets as well.I believe this only to be true for 'Great' Britain. The other European countries have either apologised or made up in one way or another. Mind you the vast majority of injustices the Europeans have done to each other. Probable the biggest exception to the above was the slave trade, though there were reasons behind this also...... quoteAsk Japan about Chinas behavior.Japan has always been threatened by Chinas presence, but how many timed in the past has China attempted to conquer Japan? None. Japan on the other hand has attacked China numerous times, last time being only 66 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 9, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2001 quoteYes, I am aware of this.By the way, this most likely is true in Australia as well? Is it not? That is other than Sports which I hear is the most important pastime in AU? quoteI believe the most important thing life is what I call 'satisfaction'.Juggernaut, I was just kidding about the money thing. I had a couple of happy faces after my comment. However I would say that money does allow you to achieve 'satisfaction' much easier. quoteIn this sence, people in the USSR (after WW2) had a better life than those in the US. And this is all important.I do not agree with that statement. After all what am I doing in US and what are you doing in AU if life in USSR was better. quoteWW2 would have taken place if the Allies had won with or without US support.If? quoteContrary to popular belief, Germany was severly punished for WW2 also. Just look at the European map and notice the large chunk of German territory given to Poland including Eastern Prussia. Not mentioning the East/West division and the fact that the whole country was in ruins.No question about that. And I never said that it was not. Traveling in Germany in late 80s, I felt that the Germans still felt sorry for WW2. And they felt the pain that they had caused. quoteIts not just about scientific advancements, but also economic and psycological aid and many other factors.What economic and psychological factors are you talking about? The economy was in shambles in all the states of the union. It was so bad that to this day they are having a hard time recovering. We could not say what we wanted, press was totally controlled by the government, there were lines for everything, you feared from all your neighbors because you never know who was part of the KGB. I can go on forever. Once again I ask if it was so good why did we leave? quoteI believe this only to be true for 'Great' Britain.Yes Great Britain, but just as you mentioned Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Portugal were all involved in the slave trade. And France for it's concurring of North Africa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted November 9, 2001 Report Share Posted November 9, 2001 quoteBy the way, this most likely is true in Australia as well? Is it not? Yes, the Australian media is no diffrent to US. In fact the owner of CBS, Rupert Murdoch is an Australian and also owns the most popular TV network and newspapers here. quoteThat is other than Sports which I hear is the most important pastime in AU? No, this is plain incorrect, conjurred up by foreign media to explain our great performance in the recently held Olympics . quoteHowever I would say that money does allow you to achieve 'satisfaction' much easier. It really depends, I mean look at Cuba, I bet the average Cuban child is happier than the average American, and Cuba is stuck back in the 70s. quoteAfter all what am I doing in US and what are you doing in AU if life in USSR was better. Actually I lived in the USSR to its end and moved here late 1992. quoteI felt that the Germans still felt sorry for WW2. And they felt the pain that they had caused. The problem is they have been told the pain that they have caused, but what about their own pains. I mean their gonna build a memmorial to the Holocaust in the middle of Berlin! What about the German soldier and civilians that died, they werent all Nazis. The momerial should commemorate all innocent peoples that died in the War, not just the Jews. quoteThe economy was in shambles in all the states of the union. Yes, at the end, but in the 60s and early 70s the Soviet economy was quite strong. quoteIt was so bad that to this day they are having a hard time recovering. The reason for this is that they were all interdependant. Most major factories had materials bought in from other republics, when the borders were created the materials stopped comming and the factories stopped. The same would happen in the US if all the States became independant (unless there is some sort of orderly way of transition and a free trade treaty). quotepress was totally controlled by the government Well, I would rather have the press controlled by the government rather than a few individuals. quotethere were lines for everything This was late in the 80s, though I admit consumer goods were never the forte of the Soviet Union. quoteyou feared from all your neighbors because you never know who was part of the KGB. This is rubbish, and what about McArthism in America. quoteOnce again I ask if it was so good why did we leave? I left because it fell apart. quotebut just as you mentioned Netherlands, Belgium, Spain and Portugal were all involved in the slave trade. And France for it's concurring of North Africa. I am fairly certain the Europeans will apologise for this sooner or later, as the issue has allready crept up. But I want you to think about something. The USSR was nowhere near as bad as people in America think. And even Hitler and Stalin (geatest murderers of all time according to history) DID NOT USE CHEMICAL WEAPONS IN WORLD WAR 2. Even while the Soviet armies were taking Berlin and the Wehrmacht was set to take Moscow. But the US DID use chemical weapons in Vietnam, and the US is the only country to have used nuclear weapons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 9, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2001 quoteIn fact the owner of CBS, Rupert Murdoch is an Australian.I think Murdoch owns FOX but I am not 100% sure. He also owns bunch of newspapers in UK. quoteNo, this is plain incorrect, conjurred up by foreign media to explain our great performance in the recently held Olympics.I actually had heard this prior to the Olympics. I had heard that there are something like a half a dozen national sports magazines and only 2 or 3 news. And also that everyone(men, women children) watch and know sports. Not true? quoteIt really depends, I mean look at Cuba, I bet the average Cuban child is happier than the average American, and Cuba is stuck back in the 70s.I am not a psychologist to tell you which kids are happy, but I would tell you that once they reach teenage life MANY try to fled the country. They risk their lives coming over to Florida in flimsy rafts and even tire tubes. quoteActually I lived in the USSR to its end and moved here late 1992.Well maybe you did, but my many of us left much before that and when I m,ade the comment about you and I, I was just generalizing it more for why so many left. quoteYes, at the end, but in the 60s and early 70s the Soviet economy was quite strong.It really was not. We were constantly told that it was but was it really? quoteThe reason for this is that they were all interdependant. Most major factories had materials bought in from other republics, when the borders were created the materials stopped comming and the factories stopped. The same would happen in the US if all the States became independant (unless there is some sort of orderly way of transition and a free trade treaty).Yes and no. In a free economy(take it Australia or US) if someone stops selling you the raw materials that you need to fill the demand that is available you will get the raw materials from another source. quoteWell, I would rather have the press controlled by the government rather than a few individuals.I would not. quoteThis was late in the 80s, though I admit consumer goods were never the forte of the Soviet Union.Not the late 80. I left Armenian in 1980 and there were lines at that time. My parents talk about the 60s and 70 as years were goods were plenty, but I do not remember for I was only 11 when we came here. quoteThis is rubbish, and what about McArthism in America.This is not rubbish just as McArthism was not rubbish. Next you are going to tell me that Stalin did not send millions to Siberia. Right? quoteI left because it fell apart.It fell apart because the system was bunch of BS. quoteAnd the US is the only country to have used nuclear weapons.Yes, and it finally ended WW2. Did it not? [ November 09, 2001: Message edited by: Azat ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted November 10, 2001 Report Share Posted November 10, 2001 Azat, Yes, of course Murdoch owns Fox News. It is a "stick" created by Murdoch to hit Bill and Hillary with. Hannity has the demeanor of a respectable gent while Colmes doesn't look like the liberals I know, but sort of weird.Rush is a favorite there (garbage in, garbage out-yet he may be having truble ately with thr garbage in) who fits the station like a glove. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 10, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2001 Khodja,Are you telling me that Murdoch created Fox Network, which owns Fox news and sports and all the other channels in the network just to "hit Bill and Hillary"?(whatever that may mean) Murdoch is a brilliant business man and he created the network to make money. And if making money means attacking liberals, democrats, republicans, black, whites, aliens, and Armenians that is what his network will do. It is true that Fox news is more conservative than others, but one has to also say that CNN, MSNBC, NBC and CBS tend to be more liberal. At one time CNN was known as the Clinton News Network. I don't buy any of this that you wrote. And it is this kind of comments from you that make me wonder what you are thinking. You seem like an intelligent man, and I can't believe that you for one second think that Murdoch created Fox News to "hit Bill and Hillary". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted November 10, 2001 Report Share Posted November 10, 2001 Azat, I write these things to make others reflect and to illicit a response. IKNOW everything about Murdoch including his private with his ex-wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodja Posted November 10, 2001 Report Share Posted November 10, 2001 Azat, I forgot the word private- "private matters." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggernaut Posted November 10, 2001 Report Share Posted November 10, 2001 quoteI had heard that there are something like a half a dozen national sports magazines and only 2 or 3 news. And also that everyone(men, women children) watch and know sports. Not true? Well, every country has a sports contious section of the public, but since I have only ever lived (an extended amount of my life) in Armenia and Australia, I can only say that sport certainly has more influence on people here, escpessially men and boys, but I dont consider this to be fanaticism. quoteThey risk their lives coming over to Florida in flimsy rafts and even tire tubes. Yes, after they grow-up and start watching Hollywood . quoteWe were constantly told that it was but was it really? It depends on what really one defines as 'strong' and 'weak'. If one means readyness for war, then we were ceratinly the strongest economy. quoteIn a free economy(take it Australia or US) if someone stops selling you the raw materials that you need to fill the demand that is available you will get the raw materials from another source. I am aware of this (I am university business student ), but the factories in USSR were all state run (a state that dissapeared in a week), plus the added confusion of privatisation meant a severe slowdown, and its difficult to start things again, just look at Great Depression. quoteI would not. At least the government (in a democracy) is accountable to the public and can be voted out. Who is Murdoch or Turner accountable to? quoteI left Armenian in 1980 and there were lines at that time. mmm, I wont comment on this one, untill I ask my parents, coz I wasnt born yet in 1980 . quoteThis is not rubbish just as McArthism was not rubbish. By rubbish, I did not mean the KGB did not intefere, but the fact the US had their own problems with 'espionage'. quoteNext you are going to tell me that Stalin did not send millions to Siberia. Yes he did, but he also made a super-power out of the ruins of the Tsarist Empire. I am not defending him btw, he did kill many innocents and considerably weakenned the USSR in the late 1930s, BUT by 1950s USSR was a super-power largelly thanks to him and those around him (including Mikoyan). quoteYes, and it finally ended WW2. Did it not? Germany had allready been defeated, and historical sources admit that the Japanese would have surrendered anyway if the Soviets had invaded (which they did but only AFTER the bombs were dropped). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azat Posted November 10, 2001 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2001 quoteYes, after they grow-up and start watching Hollywood .I think I am on my way to Australia because I have been watching TV and Elle McPherson was on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.