TURKISH GROUPS MANIPULATING JEWS, ETC.

[khodja]

How do you bury a Genocide? One way is by creating antagonism between Armenians and other groups, Jews, Hispanics, Blacks, etc. This has been going on for many years in America. There are numerous Armenians who have married outside our community who have married Jews and Hispanics, and a small number are married to Blacks. Of nine cousins including myself, three have married Jews and have had children from these marriages, four have married Armenians (including myself) and the two other have married to other European nationalities. My relatives are not working on their mates or children to dislike Turks! It is absolutely despicable what the Turkish groups are trying to do, building friendships with other ethnic and religious groups in order to insure that the Armenians NEVER get justice. I realize that certain Armenian revolutionary groups gave the Young Turk leaders an excuse to do what they did, but the wholesale massacre of multitudes of innocents was a crime. What these Turkish groups now want to do is to "twist the knife in the Armenian's stomach." by trying to switch those Jewish groups supporting the Armenian cause against them. Next they plan to work on other groups. I have tasted Turkish vengeance for insisting that the Genocide occured. They are very vocal and powerful in some regions.

[aurguplu]

hagarag,

 

the reaction of the turkish groups, and the jews' alliance with them, stems from certain basic facts:

 

1. i had outlined the reasons for turkish reaction in an earlier posting, just to repeat in outline here:

 

i. most turks genuinely believe in what they say, i.e. that it was inter-ethnic warfare and not state-planned genocide due to the brainwashing they have gone through for three generations,

ii. the armenians did provide the yong turks with an excuse by inciting revolts and siding with the enemy,

iii. an enormous number of turks (over three million), civilian as well as military, died in wwi, which no-one in the west talks about,

iv. genocide claims usually surface during election times in the usa or europe, and are addressed by politicians none of whom are armenian or represent armenian interests,

v. genocide claims almost never come without other claims attached to them, most notably land claims,

vi. the attitude of the republic of armenia regarding the territorial integrity of turkey is unclear,

vii. armenians, including the republic of armenia, are clearly the aggressors in the nagorno-karabagh issue, and armenia is currently occupying azeri territory OUTSIDE nagorno-karabagh and has already carried out ethnic cleansing by displacing a million azeris,

viii. the turks have justified concerns that the territorial integrity of turkey is questioned by the west, not only in the case of the armenians but also that of the kurds.

 

2. now the jewish-turkish cooperation in this issue:

 

i. jews are in a hostile environment in the middle east, and their only friend is turkey (we recognised israel back in 1948 or 49).

ii. we are probably the only nation on earth who had consistently good relations with the jews: turksih jews came to turkey from spain in 1492, fleeing the inquisition at the hands of the christians.

iii. both nations have a common enemy: militant islam, which tries to destroy both secular turkey and israel,

iv. this is most important: the jewish holocaust is probably the ultimate abomination of human history. history has seen quite a few abominations, ranging from genghis khan to stalin, to the inquisition, the slave trade, annihilation of the native americans and the australians, but the jewish holocaust is really without parallel, and their efforts to oppose any attempt at equating any other tragedy with theirs is understandable: the armenians had rebelled, and the rebellion was most brutally put down; and then, seen as a threat to the existence of the state, they were all but annihilated. though barbaric and atrocious, it does not really compare to the holocaust, where the jews were eliminated WITHOUT PROVOCATION ON THEIR SIDE. i have maintained in previous postings in this forum that the armenian genocide was far more comparable to the bosnian genocide than the jewish holocaust.

 

none of the above of course neither denies the fact of genocide nor diminishes nor justifies it; but - i hope - it gives it a new perspective.

 

the issue is going to take a totally new turn as the easing of the ban on the discussion of the genocide in turkey starts to bear fruit. i think this is the most important area to focus on, and not the reactions of the turkish groups outside and the allegiance of the jews with the turks.

 

cheers,

[khodja]

Ali,

 

 

As usual, you have an excellent understanding of the intracacy of the issues involved. As for the Karabagh situation this was an Azeri creation. People who are treated as equals have no impetus for armed conflicts. The Armenians in Azerbaijan perceived changes as the Soviet Union disintegrated which led to the cessession of Karabagh.

 

As for the Genocide issue, I am not opposed to restitution for Turks or Moslems disenfranchised in the Balkans. You and a minority of Turks are reasonable persons who understand the nuances of what transpired during that era. But your government is woeking behind the scenes to neutralize the gains recently made by Armenians for recognition of the Genocide. It is the families of those Armenians falsely accused by Armenians of being traitors to the Armenian cause by working closely with the Ottomans who feel that there was absolutely no justifcation for their executions and the confiscation of their properties. It has been documented that a high Ottoman official in prison for war crimes personally agreed that my family members were never involved in any revolutionary activity, that they were executed solely because they refused to renounce their religion. A fair and equitable resolution of the events of that general era should include that which was foisted upon the Balkan Turks.

[Twilight Bark]

Hagarag,
You seem to imply that your family was exceptional in its non-involvement in "revolutionary" activities. The vast majority of Ottoman Armenians of that era fall into that category. Although I really do not want to think it, you seem to say "My family have served the Empire so well, and so much more than other Armenians. Oh, please, give me back my inheritance. I could use the money" at the expense of implied mischaracterization of the utterly apolitical nature of most Armenians in the Ottoman Empire when the Genocide took place.

[Twilight Bark]

Dear Ali,

As reasonable and enlightened you may be in many respects, you are utterly wrong in this characterization. The Armenian "revolutionaries" were few in number, and had never amounted to any real threat. The sporadic "noises" from the provinces were the result of the appalling treatment Armenians endured despite their surreal degree of passivism. The vast majority of Ottoman Armenians were apolitical. Of all the ethnic groups that had the "potential" to rebel, Armenians were probably the most pathetic one, and the ruling party certainly was wily enough to know it. In fact, that knowledge gave them the audacity to carry out the "deed".
Best Regards,
Twilight Bark

[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[khodja]

TB,

 

You mischaracterize my comments as usual. I understand that very few Armenians were involved in "revolutionary" activity. The point that I was making was about the extreme xenophobia of the leaders of the Young Turks. This was so extreme that they would exterminate ALL Armenians even those with whom they were dealing day to day in affairs of the state. As for the equitable settlement of Armenian claims, this is not a view that is not shared by most Armenians and is agreed to by a limited number of present-day Turkish officials.

 

I am very familiar with your kind TB. You will sell a fellow Armenian down the river if their political or religious philosophies do not coincide with your own. You will plot with your fellow ideologues to bring down a fellow Armenian. Your ideology is more important than your Armenianess. For example the slavish way the AAA buckles under to every Bush command. Rove says "jump" and Hovnanian replies "how high." FYI, I know the Hovnanians very well and respect them for their success and their good deeds. I just feel that they are so blinded by their loyalty to Bush and Rove that they can not see the forest through the trees.

[Twilight Bark]

Hagarag,

Please do not go down that path. If you think I mischaracterized you comments, use the tools of logic and clear language to rebut my impression. The impression given by your earlier statements stands, whether there is factual basis for it or not.

As for my "kind", apparently you know absolutely nothing about "my kind", so why not just give up? I try to analyze statements made by other as logically as possible. What is said may not reflect what was intended, but being a psychic is not one of my specialties; I go with what is actually uttered. If you try to understand me by pigeonholing me into a category that you are familiar with, it will be a futile activity.

Let's stay as cordial and logical as we are capable of.

TB

[khodja]

TB,

 

It is your utter vilification of A/B, without reference to any of his positive influences, which has induced me to pigeonhole you.

[MosJan]

hmmmm. thsi is not nice at all.

[Twilight Bark]

I really don't know what your behavior is induced by. Pigeonhole and stereotype all you want; facts are immune to that sort of thing.

Instead of going ballistic over my seeing through Baliozian's pathetic facade, please analyze (i.e. don't just state as a dictum) where I was inaccurate when I criticized his writings in a specific case. I said several times that most of what he writes is accurate enough; it's the silly untruths he regularly slips in intentionally that appalls me. When he does that he denigrates the truisms in his writings to the level of camouflage for advancing his personal vendetta against his equally silly adversaries within the Armenian "establishment" (of which I am definitely not a part, nor do I want to be). Read a little bit, and you'll realize that he often equates the whole Armenian nation with lowest forms of life, and refuses to see any positive qualities in Armenian character. If you view yourself as a Baliozian groupie, and refuse to contemplate that he is awfully wrong too often, please state it clearly; so I won't have to reply to you again. In any case, why are we talking about him again?

[khodja]

Mea Culpa, I AM a Baliozian groupie.

[Twilight Bark]

Dear hagarag,

There was no "phobia" involved on the part of the executioners, xeno- or otherwise. They were not afraid of Armenians. Armenians were unassimilable into the planned homogenous Turkish nation they wanted to synthesize, and had to be eliminated. As simple as that. There was no amount of loyalty (however undeserved) that could save an Armenian. This is the reason, by the way, why Armenian and Jewish genocides are entirely comparable, and of similar nature.

Propagandists use a lot of positive-sounding "fluff" to deliver the "real" message buried among the "oh-so-true" statements. That is why I zero in on those "real" messages, and disregard the rest, as they are either really irrelevant for the propagandist or small "sacrifices" in the broader chess game being played.

So, I urge you to read between the lines a bit more vigorously before swallowing a whole paragraph or two hook, line and sinkers.

As for your personal history or motivations. I sincerely want to believe that you have a pure heart, and are an honest person. That will be my starting point from now on, and I hope that you will do the same favor to me.

Regards,
Twilight Bark

[Arpa]

Originally posted by Arguplu

 

 

ii. we are probably the only nation on earth who had consistently good relations with the jews: turksih jews came to turkey from spain in 1492, fleeing the inquisition at the hands of the christians.

==========

 

The above is yet another historical revisionism in action. I have asked this question numerous times both in private and public.

You seem to know much about Ottoman, and other histories. Perhaps you can enlighten us as to why during close 500 years of Ottoman hegemony over much of the Middle East (as you mention, since 1492)there was not a Jewish state created, not only that, until the retreat of the Ottomans from those lands, only during the British mandate Jews were permitted to enter Palestine something that was strictly forbidden during Ottoman rule. Does it take Turkish genius to completely rewrite world history? If so then please rewrite those eras which are not recorded in script and images. Whatever Jews and Turks may have in common one thing is certain, they both have the genius to rewrite history, fictionalize it an use for their own agenda. Who taught whom? You may fool all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but the day will come when one may not fool all of the people all of the time.

[MJ]

To second Arpa in some ways, I would also like to add that according to some contemporary Jewish Historians, the Ottoman Jews have barely "made it" without becoming a subject of Genocide in the Ottoman Empire. Some of it has been at the expense of Armenians, which is well documented by certain Jewish sources.

 

P.S. The reason I am using here the words "some" and "certain" is that I am away from home, where I could check the sources and be more specific.

 

[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: MJ ]

[bellthecat]

[khodja]

TB,

 

I am sure that if I met you, or even MJ, face to face that we could come to an understanding. We may even develop a comraderie of sorts. I wonder if the reason you folks question my motivations or history is because it is so divergent from your own. Without the influences of the Armenian Church or the community one develops different perceptions, despite the parental influences.

[khodja]

MosJan,

 

I use only words. You say that this is not nice. The California Republican Party leaders have literally murdered people, mainly moderate members of their own party and some centrist Democrats who are a threat to them. These people are TOTALLY supported by the powerful Armenians in the Party. Only now that the leaders have been "counseled" by the national Party that their homicidal ways have created major losses for them, that they will purport to change their ways. Once the get Riordan elected, they will twist his arm behind his back as they did to Gov. Wilson and go back to executing moderates. And our people are leading the charge. How shameful for a people who have experienced a Genocide.

[edward demian]

What is it with you and the Republicans. there seem to be bigger villains around; ie Nazis, Communists, Pan-Turkism, Canibalism, Islam etc. The Republicans only sin seems to be that they only want to make a profit. In that respect they are sooo Armenian. We are a few and without influence. We receive accordingly. Democrat,Republican,Communist,Islamist,Green,Socialist.... they will all sell us just for a good impression. Only Armenians that have bee sensithized to the Armenian Cause, physically working for the Federal Government at various departmental levels, can make a difference. We need a bargaining chip or influence in order to get an equal measure of justice.

[khodja]

Edward Demian,

 

I have no problem with those who want to make money. I have a problem with those who want to make money at other people's expense. Tobacco use, carcinogens in water, polluted beaches are issues I care about. I also believe in religious freedom. The American Christian "Taliban" is part of the Republican coalition. I would have been very pleased with McCain, as President. My problem is not with Bush per se, but with those who propelled him to the Presidency over McCain. Also, historically more profit is made under growing economies during Democratic adminstrations than Republican ones. I respect and have voted for a number of Republicans. One of my favorite Republicans was executed by the Republican leadership in California.

[Twilight Bark]

Yes, I agree with what you said, including the end. However, I have not been "influenced" by the church or the "community". The church's role in my family's life has always been laughably small. As for "community", I have not been immersed in the "community" for quite some time, although I would like it if I had the chance. I am as far away from being a "ghetto dweller" as one can possibly get. My affection for things Armenian has nothing to do with pride, jingoism, or hostility to "others". I view Armenians as my extended family, and define my emotional attachment in the same way. I have no interest in belonging to a synthetic "nation" based on ideology or indoctrination. Oh, one more thing: I have a total lack of interest in any Republican-Democrat rivalries, or Armenian political rivalries for that matter. This should help you in placing me in your cultural landscape.

[aurguplu]

steve,

while i agree largely with what you say, i have to point out that the "story" of spanish jews settled in istanbul in 1492, apart from being true, also means a lot to both nations - especially the jews concerned, who owe their very existence today to it.

there are also a very large number of crypto or ex-jews, the "selanikli", who have traditionally reached very high levels in turkey. our current foreign secretary, prof. ismail cem, is such a one, for instance.

it is of course obvious that the current love-affair between the israelis and the turks is more a result of realpolitik than historical affection, but it also remains a fact that apart from the two shameful instances in republican history - the 6-7 sept 1955 events and the earlier property tax business - one would be hard put to find any anti-jewish action in post-tanzimat turkish history, and also, jews persecuted elsewhere have frequently ended up in turkey, not only in 1492 but also during ww2.

also, we as a nation are generally in good terms with the israelis that we see, and anyone who knows us knows of our opinion of the arabs (mine is an exception).


regards,

[aurguplu]

dear tb,

o.k. i know, and have said before, that 1) the rebellious armenians did not cosntitute the majority, 2) you do not kill innocent armenian civilians because some armenian rebelled and killed turks. you go and nail that armenian and that one alone. 3) the young turks appear to have had the idea of getting rid of the armenians anyway, so the armenian rebellions only served as a pretext.

so much i hope we agree in.

now the rebellions: a letter by boghos noubar *****, the armenian representative at the paris? conference after ww1, which has been posted somewhere in this forum several times (once by me) states that armenians had joined the enemies of the ottomans in quite substantial numbers (way more than a few thousand) since the beginning of the war. there is also abundant literature, by the armenians and non-armenians alike, on the terrorist activities of armenian factions from the last decades of the 19th century. although it is probably true that the absolute majority had sided with the ottomans, it is equally true that a numerically significant minority had sided with the russians and the french (the boghos noubar letter gives a figure of at least 40,000 if i remember correctly. by the way, it was timuçin who posted it, then i re-copied it from there and posted it somewhere else, went back to look for it to post it here, it isn't there. can anyone tell me where it is, please?)

so while turks have to learn to live with the fact that what transpired was a genocide, the armenians also have to learn to live with the fact that they were "not little lambs", as one british statesman of the period had put it.

we both have to revise our perceptions of the past.

cheers,

[MJ]

Ali,

 

I don't think Nubar *****'s letter gave any numbers. Additionally, I don't think that anybody has removed it from its original thread.

[aurguplu]

mj,

i recall having seen numbers there (at least in the version that timuçin posted). i am not implying that anybody has removed it, but i can't find the thing. it must have been somewhere under genocide (gosh with our habit of jumping from topic to topic, this forum has started to look like my study desk to me (no offence intended)).

how about the first person relocating it posting it under a separate title under genocide so that we can get back to it with ease? i think it will create quite some discussion.

i hate it when the documents i am referring to are not under my nose and have to quote from memory.

cheers,

[MJ]

Ali,

 

Maybe someone else may help us to find the original text. AS far as the numbers are concerned, I distinctly remember the letter saying "thousands of Armenians from all over the world."

 

Additionally, I think that letter was taken from the ATAA (Assuming my abbreviation is correct Web site. So we can find it again. Unfortunately, right now, I cannot devote time to it.)