Guest Posted October 23, 2000 Report Share Posted October 23, 2000 People! This is a subject that is definatley open to a lot of debate on this forum. I decided to open up a new topic for this because the other one was getting too long and ridiculous, and off the subject anyway! So why dont we just go for it? I want every one to talk about their opinions honestly and freely, but in a CIVILISED and respectful manner. I dont want any slanging matches, or personal jibes otherwise the thread WILL be closed! OK? I think there are a lot of valid opinons on all sides but I cant say I agree with one person more than the other. MJ, my veiw on what an atheist is someone who doesnt beleive in god. But it's as simple as that because "god" is so many different things to different people. Some poeple cant live without following a religion strictly day by day to guide their lives. Jehovah's witnesses are a good example of this. Some people beleive god is a prescence, or a spirit. Some think he/she/it is "up there" looking after us all (or even waving a big stick!) some think there is nothing at all, and humans are the highest there is, John Lennon tells this in "Imagine". Some people even think god is a living man! (rastas) you call god "he" for example. Who says god is any sex? I know a lot of people say they are chrisitans just because they think it sounds good to other people, and whan they are alone they dont care to praactice what they preach, or even reearch it properly. This is true of most societies , not just armenians. For example the catholic church preaches and preaches, but are discovered to cover up a lot of evils that it is witnessing and keeping quiet(for example, abusive behaviour of male priests towards women and children and their collaboration with the nazis during WWII. I regret there now: forget I said it!) MJ, that's okay if you dont want to discuss your own personal relationship with your god with us. In fact, it's good. I personally think it's a good idea. Some where in the bible it says that's the way it should be between a person and god,not praying on street corners just because other people are watching you. Artur, please dont be upset by MJ's post. I'm sure he didnt set out to peronally upset you, he was expressing is own opinion. He has his and you have yours! No harm in that at all. Pellaffi, I can certainly understand your point of veiw becuase a lot of people feel the same way. The time when priests are most stumped for an answer is when"how can there be a god when all these terrible things happen in the world" is asked. there all like, "I dunno, I dunno" or they say " if you are good than you will go to heaven" (I think that appeals to selfish people because you can not do any bad but you can also not particularly use you life while your here to help with any good, waiting to be comfortable in the next)I dont think people who beleive in a certain religion have nesscesarily got the meaning of life sorted out. Mabye for THEM, but not for everyone. I agree with you about people, using the bible for god then it's great but ridiculous to use it for killing and hatred. The cliche: most of wars are based on religion! So if anyone is asking if you are a beleiver: it depends on what you beleive IN! by the way, MJ, Artur, and Pilafhead's veiws on god and religion are already in "a reason to be proud and a reason to be ashamed" topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2000 Report Share Posted October 23, 2000 Kazza, I should say "Wow." Pretty impressive staff have you put here. I will come back to it, a little later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2000 Report Share Posted October 23, 2000 I need to add an additional $0.02 post script here. As a non-believer, I fully recognize that religion is man-made and does not necessarily have anything to do with God. I hate most organized religious institutions in America. They are nothing but money making machines, but that has nothing to do with my belief or non-belief in a supreme being. BTW, as I said in a different post here, I believe in ghosts/spirits. Not sure how that fits into everything [This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited October 23, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2000 Report Share Posted October 23, 2000 See, Mike, I told you that you'd come around... this is just the beginning just kidding with you... BACK TO REAL DISCUSSION!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2000 Report Share Posted October 23, 2000 quote:Originally posted by Pilafhead:I need to add an additional $0.02 post script here. As a non-believer, I fully recognize that religion is man-made and does not necessarily have anything to do with God.I hate most organized religious institutions in America. They are nothing but money making machines, but that has nothing to do with my belief or non-belief in a supreme being.BTW, as I said in a different post here, I believe in ghosts/spirits. Not sure how that fits into everything [This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited October 23, 2000).]Yes, Pellafi jan, that was actually another point I was going to come to: organised religion has definatley got a lot to answer for. Some of them are just business that expliot the beleifs of it's people to make money/politcial allies/ and also people use organised religion for social status(as the do with marriages) and use it for credibility, churches for social status, and keeping-together within ethnic groups (your question of whether youcan be an armenian without the armenian church!!!!! What a question!!!!!!!!!!! LOL's all round! Of course you can. That in itself is a perfect example. ) I dont think i'm getting it wrong here, but there is a section on orthodox Judaism which says if a Jewish woman and gentile man have a child the child is Jewish, however if a gentile woman and a Jeish man have a child the child is not Jewish. WHATTTT? I have a lot of respect for people's beleifs ,the proof is in the pudding how good their beleifs are according to how well they live their lifes and a lot of Jews I've met are really good people. But, the actual fact is , one Jewish parent, one gentile parent, a half Jewish baby period. Just shows how silly some people exploit religion to put pressure on the people.But anyay, PLEASE do not talk to me about Ghosts at this time of night! BBBBRRRR! I will lie awake wide eyed and scared. True how comes you beleive in them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2000 Report Share Posted October 23, 2000 But is there such a thing as an atheist Jew??? Sounds like an oxymoron. Some see an atheist Armenian the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2000 Report Share Posted October 23, 2000 Yes, there is such a thing as an atheist JewYes, there is such a thing as an atheist armenian.You can be an atheist anything. The rest is just social conditioning. every one has the right to beleive what they like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Yes Virginia there are atheist Armenians! Remember that Armenians have been Armenians long before Christianity. Of course Christianity is very much a part of Armenian identity, but should it be exclusive? Can a person be an Armenian, and heaven forbid, a Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu? I believe the answer is yes, though it sure will be a heck of a lot more difficult for them. Also, on a related topic ( perhaps I better open another thread) what do Armenians think about Uniates (Armenians who returned to the Catholic Church and kept the Armenian liturgy), and Armenian Protestants? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Armenian Church is still "Catholic" in a sense Universal. That's why I don't think "returned" is appropriate, rather joined the Roman Catholic Church. No bad filings, just a correction! [This message has been edited by gamavor (edited October 23, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 quote:Originally posted by Half Breed:Yes Virginia there are atheist Armenians! Remember that Armenians have been Armenians long before Christianity. Of course Christianity is very much a part of Armenian identity, but should it be exclusive? Can a person be an Armenian, and heaven forbid, a Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu? I believe the answer is yes, though it sure will be a heck of a lot more difficult for them. Also, on a related topic ( perhaps I better open another thread) what do Armenians think about Uniates (Armenians who returned to the Catholic Church and kept the Armenian liturgy), and Armenian Protestants?oooooh hoo hoo hoo hooo! Tuff subject! I knew it would be when I opened the can of worms (from Tesco's value range)As i was saying, organised religion HAS a lot more to do with ethnic identity, than personal beleif so inevitably it will be very hard. The other Catholic and protestant armenians? (and where on EARTH did they get that from in the first place? The irish!) I don't know anything about those armenians, I dont know what relations are like between them. But in the eyes of armenians, I'm guessing" as long as it's armenian it's OK " I dont know if i'm wrong or not...Discuss! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Oh by the way, what's with all this Virginia business? Isn't that where the Waltons live? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 But part of the definition of "Jew" involves religion. Speaking from strictly an historical perspective, I could see the definition of "Armenian" including Christianity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Kazza, religion is something between you and GOD. If someone believes its his own thing. But problems start when other one offend your religion and tries to prove that what we were doing and are doing is wrong. But that person at least has to respect the views of the other. The GOD is the judge for everyone of us. Artur [This message has been edited by Tiger AA (edited October 23, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 quote:Originally posted by Half Breed:Can a person be an Armenian, and heaven forbid, a Muslim, Buddhist or Hindu?No! Hell No!Religion is not a football team that you can change. If you are born Christian then be a christian! P.S. Are there Armenians in the US who converted our religion to another one??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 This subject is really fascinating , however I believe it is also very ‘dangerous’ because emotions lead the way and reason regresses. I’ve grown up in a religious environment, which has deeply marked my life. Not that I am a religious fanatic, nor a frequent church visitor, however Belief leads my life. Most of my decisions are weighted against a ‘right or wrong’ process. My Belief is something very personal and it has to do with me and God. Nothing comes in between , and nothing can ( should ? ) affect it. I have witnessed that Belief makes me a better person and I have to live by the standards and rules that I’ve set. Having said the above let me elaborate a bit further. I believe that Belief is an inner necessity of human beings, like other necessities ( love , affection , care , worry , jealousy etc etc ) . I cannot imagine anybody not having any kind of Belief in something stronger than himself. We witness everyday our own weaknesses and our strengths, however, unfortunately, we also witness the cruelty and the hate of other people. Deep inside us we want to believe that there should be something purer than us , something stronger than us and finally something more just than any human being. By now everybody should have concluded that we are not living on ‘Heaven on Earth ‘ , and that if there is life after this life, it should at least be better , purer and soul culminating. Now , about the religious organizations. They exist because us , the human beings, created them . Nobody enforced them on us. No supernatural powers created them. Accordingly these organizations are the mirror of our own lives. We can condemn them , we can be angry with them , we can hate and love them , but they do not seize being our own creations. Churches/Mosques/Temples are empty structures, which unless they are filled with people, with congregations, they have no value whatsoever. Most of you , most of us condemn them because actually they represent the weaknesses of human beings . They have not managed to become the Ideal , we have hoped they should , because simply we are weak , we are low , and yes we are only humans. We have set very high standards for our Religious organizations and churches , however we have not managed to live up to these standards. We expect others to set the good example and then if they are to our suit , we follow or we condemn. To be a believer your soul should fight with itself. The inner struggle that should go within us should show us the right and wrong. Something more , we do not , we should not cheat ourselves. We have to be very tough with ourselves so that we may become better friends, better parents , better husbands , better neighbours, better human beings.This is religion for me , this is Belief . Finally, just because ( I’ll deviate and become a bit vulgar) << People walk , bullshit talks >> , don’t be carried away with your own , non-processed , ideas about belief and religion. It is not enough, because it usually represents our unconscious effort to run away from responsibility. It gives us the ‘proofs’ to let go and be another ‘nothing’ in life . We didn’t end up in this life , just to eat , have sex and shit (sorry ). There should, and if there isn’t , we should find a noble cause for our existence. If anybody wants to search his soul, he should ‘educate’ himself and enrich his knowledge. Reading the Bible, the works of Y.Goghpatsi , Kazantzakis, Terzakis , Cohello, Dostoyefski , Tolstoy and many others , have helped me clarify certain points , certain doubts/feelings. This is a continuous process , I believe it will end when I’ll close my eyes and pass away. I might be totally wrong, but believe me, it worth’s trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Kazza, This time I'll go in short messages, avoiding my traditional large ones. I think saying "I believe in God" is very easy. To me, Mike's statements on his non-belief sound more believable. Sure a lot of people say they believe in God. But a lot of them are cheating themselves, and a lot of them don’t think hard what is it that they are saying. If one really believes in God in the sense of the creator of all, and being alive and watching after us, it has to have profound impact on his/her life. The real belief will change completely who we are, our behavior, mentality, lifestyle, and attitudes to other creations of God, etc. Believing God is one of the most difficult things in life, and to me is a lifetime effort, and a lifetime search. I used “he” to point at the God, and not to indicate on his sex. Just didn’t bother to be careful in the philosophical sense of the word. The Old Testament says that God has created man in his image. But given that God is not supposed to mean material essence, but spiritual, this means has created in his spiritual image. I indeed don’t thing God has gender, because then it will imply existence of at least two Gods, which I am very reluctant to accept. One of the most complex theological disputes in Christianity is in a way associated with this issue. I mean the issue of St. Trinity, as to explain who/what is Jesus after all – man, god or spirit, or how all these things come together. The issue is the main source of separation of Christian Church. It has almost 1500 years history, and some of the best minds in history have devoted their lives to this philosophical paradigm, and it is still unresolved. But don’t worry, I will resolve it in my next posting Just kidding My concluding cliche - Show me a person who believes in Jesus, I'll show you a person who is headed to Heaven. And try not to exceed 144,000 people from the 12 tribes of Israel [This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 25, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Gamavor, I am going to be in Houston, and available on Thursday night. Do you want to get together and resolve with me the gretest unresolved philosophical paradigm of all times with a glass of wine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 quote:Originally posted by raffiaharonian:I cannot imagine anybody not having any kind of Belief in something stronger than himself.Deep inside us we want to believe that there should be something purer than us , something stronger than us and finally something more just than any human being. You are right. Humans have a need for belief and reliance in a greater power than themselves. I have such beliefs in my family. My family is greater than I, stronger than I, and should I become a loathsome person, my family would be there to help me. I mean "family" in the extended sense of parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts and cousins. My purpose in life is to put family #1--be an excellent father and husband, thereby maintaining the strength of my immediate family. If my life is successful, my son will grow up to be a decent, caring human who will be a productive and compassionate member of society. If everyone did this with their children, the world would be a Heaven on Earth.I'm not just saying this as a response to your post. I have held these "beliefs" for many years. Nothing comes before family. I always had trouble with the Christian notion that Jesus had to come before my mother in my life.Whomever I come across in life, as long as they are decent people and lovingly raise decent children, I do not care what their beliefs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Mike, Judaism doesn't require from Jews to be believers, but requires being righteous people. According to them, only the righteous lifestyle itself may suffice for one's salvation. This is one of the primary reasons Jews protest Christianity. They say why do you deny us the opportunity of salvation, if we are leaving more righteous life, than many of your so-called believers. Note, that I am not implicating that Jews are non-believers. I am just saying that it is not necessary for their salvation to be believers. They may be atheists, but still go to Heaven, according to their beliefs. P.S. BTW, according to Christianity, one may be the last scoundrel in the world, but at the end of the day, his faith in Jesus may lead him to Heaven. This paradox was a major dividing point between the Catholics and the Protestants. It took hundreds of years, and eventually, in the year 2000 the Catholic Church came to declare that they do accept it. Now, it seems they are united in this belief. [This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 24, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 quote:Originally posted by MJ:Gamavor,I am going to be in Houston, and available on Thursday night. Do you want to get together and resolve with me the gretest unresolved philosophical paradigm of all times with a glass of wine?With great pleasure, Sir!Make it bottle. Just e-mail me when you arrive.Regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Perhaps I shouldn't be getting into this, but I can't resist, so here it goes... I think the first distinction that needs to be made is that between faith and religion. I, for one, consider myself to be a highly spiritual person (and Mike, ditto to your reference to the supernatural, etc), but also a person highly devoid of religion in its traditional sense. Someone correctly pointed out that god is different things to different people. I have yet to find out what god is for me and I've embarked on a rather curious search with regard to this topic. No one who knows me would have ever conceived of Gayane reading the Bible or attending Bible study, for example. And believe me, half the time I have to sit there gritting my teeth and nailing my feet to the floor so that I don't walk out of there in complete anger and frustration and promise myself to never come back. I have many issues with "god", and they're all so difficult to resolve. But getting back to my original point, I don't believe religion will resolve those issues for me, I believe the strength of my faith (or lack thereof) will. There's also a second, equally important, distinction worth noting: that between a religious life and a moral one. I find that sometimes people are assumed to be immoral if they're not religious. This is a ridiculously untrue and highly detestable assumption for me to come across. I won't let my emotions loose here, but suffice it to say that I will shoot down and I have shot down any argument to the contrary. Third point: the biggest obstacle for me in accepting "god" is what I understand to be a complete surrender of personal control over one's life (this is simply my interpretation of it, feel free to shed some light on the subject). Me? Surrender control??...lol... I'm joking of course, but the poignancy of the point is still felt. This is something I've struggled with ever since I can remember. It may be a little childish and naive of me, but I feel that there's absolutely no reason for me to give up control over my own destiny to something as vague and ill defined as "god". I believe it was C.S. Lewis I read that explored the subject of that "leap of faith" across the unknown. I'm still unable to make it. One more gripe about a righteous god. I know millions always ask, and someone did on the forum as well, but "why all the suffering in this world? how could "he" let it happen?" The traditional answer I've gotten from the establishment is "well, you have to believe in him first" I can't help laughing at that: what is this, a child's game we're playing?...It's like saying "Ok, ok, fine, I believe in you, your move now, god, your turn"... Ridiculous. If he's so darn righteous he wouldn't allow that suffering we've spoken of. Forgive me if I'm beginning to sound like a child, but that's something I haven't been able to comprehend on any level: not intellectually, not spiritually, not emotionally, none. alright, enough of all that.. I'll end on a very pagan note Mike, you ask how the "ghosts, etc" thing fits into all this. Well, being into all that kind of supernatural stuff myself, I've asked how it fits in. The answer is, it doesn't! To the establishment ghosts, spirts, psychics, even psychologists (!!!!!! this is when I almost walked out in light of my professional aspirations!!!!!!) are somehow demonic and NOT of god. And, the logic goes, if it's not of god, it's evil. And if you believe in it, you must be evil too. So there, Mike. You and I can pretty much start packing for the underworld. lol. Speaking of which, I think hell must be an awfully interesting place--compared to heaven, that is! My last pagan point, promise: I think there's much to be said for pagan religions. At least THEY don't require you to mindlessly follow what you're told!! ugh! (well, maybe they do, but not to such an extent, i'm sure) That's all for now, folks (those of you with young kids should recognize this ) Gayane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Gayane, Don't feel guilty Who/what/where is God is an age old question. I think it takes a whole life to figure out the answers. I am not aware of any alive person, who has found the answers of these questions. The entire life of Narekatsi was a search for God. As you say, you are a spiritual person. Therefore all your life will be a search for God, I think. Those who have found the answers we search, are Saint. I know few of them in our Armenian reality - St. Gayane, St. Hripsime, St. Shoghagat, St. Mashtots, St. Barthev, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 24, 2000 Report Share Posted October 24, 2000 Thank you everyone for going 22 hours on this thread without the outbreak of war. Happens everytime, maybe we can continue to be different. BTW, The London Cast version of Jesus Christ Superstar is one of my favorite albums of all time. Go figure... [This message has been edited by Pilafhead (edited October 24, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 25, 2000 Report Share Posted October 25, 2000 quote:Originally posted by Tiger AA: No! Hell No!Religion is not a football team that you can change. If you are born Christian then be a christian! P.S. Are there Armenians in the US who converted our religion to another one???Correction Artur jan!You can't BE BORN CHRISTIAN!You have to be baptized to be christian! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 27, 2000 Report Share Posted October 27, 2000 That's really sweet.... But why did you call me Lena???????????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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