Genocide

February 9, 2001

Patriotism...the last refuge of the scoundrel...

I am sorry, very sorry RAVEN. and here, I mean those superlative paradigms of Turkish patriotism , nationalism...You have offered nothing to the rest of the world....Not a single scientist. Not a single humanist, of world standards. Not a Turk, the world can associate with. Except, perhaps, barbarism, kilings, rapings, appropriating other's human being lands...Absolutely nothing edifying...Absolutely nothing constructive...Absolutely nothing humane...And definetely, nothing trustworthy...Hence the word Turk...is synonymous..with the following. From the Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and fable..TURK= A name formerly applied to those who were barbarous, savage and cruel, from the Eyropean assosiation of the old Ottoman empire with barbaric practices, from medieval times until the early years of the 20th century. More recently, the name came to be applied to mischievous and unruly children, as:'You little Turk!'..or 'you young Turk!'...Now, please tell me, you good pretenders...Is any Turk to be trusted again?Raven..whatever...Circassian...and the rest ...liberally thinking...( or pretending to do so ) are you to be trusted? The rest of the world DOES NOT THINK SO...The rest of the world it seems has delivered its verdict....And , it does not look so good my friends...I think...the throes of death..of the once mighty Ottoman empire are to be heard, around the world before long...No body likes you...Nobody likes barbarian, untrustworthy individuals...They used you...They squeezed you..and now you are about to be droped...Droped to the oubliettes of history...And that is precisely the place where you belong...The era of barbarism and ...hypocritic humanism is over my friends...You want to considered a true human being? A true human? Show it.Condemn the atrocities your immediate,forefathers committed. Condemn, what your parents did in Cyprus...Condemn your past...Only then,...you will be considered..as a modern nation...You have to bite the bullet...Like the Germans did...And Germany today is by far...more powerful...than Turkeye..Signs ...( hypocritical, may I add) of humanism...are not to be bought ...by anyone...THE WORLD -THE FREE WORLD- WANTS STRONG EVIDENCE...OF A HUMANE CHANGE IN TURKEYE...THUS FAR NOTHING IS SHOWN...THEREFORE...YOU ARE DOOMED...YOU HAVE NOT EVEN ONE ALLY...****ING UP TO THE USA WANT HELP...THEY KNOW YOU...AND VERY WELL INDEED!!!!!

[This message has been edited by MadArmo (edited February 09, 2001).]

February 9, 2001

MJ i am waiting for your explanation about what type of a nation you are when some of armenians are fighting against ottomans on russia's side and the others are on an other side and some of them are doing nothing and the others are sitting at home and western armenians are wealthy guys with a lot of properties and this and that... so we dont talk about a nation, there were gregoryens living in anatolia and they all were punished because of some of their brothers who fought against turks, so your nation cannot even come together for such a holy war like freedom....

i can only explain the whole situation like that, and the second thing is i believe that you guys are completely right about genocides and stuff, because genocides are for weak nations who cannot defend themselves against enemy, who cannot protect their families, i dont know a single strong nation talking about genocides and those kind of stuff. Turks killed more greeks than armenians and same thing with serbs and bulgarians, but they dont send faxes to here and there, cause they suffered but they succeded at the end, if you ask a greek person about their losses in 1820-1825, he will tell you that many people have died but at the end they established their own kingdom and set themselves free from ottomans, same thing with serbs he will tell you that they suffered a lot and those barbarians ( turks ) killed many serbs, but at the end serbs became the first nation in ottoman empire who got special rights in terms of freedom. same thing with bulgarians, i am sure that more bulgarians were killed because they were on our way to europe and during all those years many of them were massacred, but they also have a bright side in their history they were the only nation in the world who got 45 miles close to istanbul, they were almost invading istanbul, and thats something they are still proud of, so as you can see, they all somehow succeded in their fights, they all got their independence from ottoman empire, they killed and they died, but you guys couldnt succeed, you couldnt get a single thing from Turks, not even a single rock from mount ararat or ani, whatever you like a lot is in Turkey, ararat and ani and van and etc....

And because of all those failures and defeats against Turks, you have nothing to be proud of in your history, no single day that you can waive your flag and shout loud that this day you kicked turks out of your country and got your freedom, nothing like that, watch greeks on 25th march ( could be may also ) how they celebrate their 186 th anniversary of victory against ottoman empire, same thing with serbs and bulgarians and with romanians, and all other nations that got their freedom. Since you have nothing in your history to be proud of against Turks, you always play the pity, poor slaughtered nation, actually the whole history is a shame for you, a nation who started its freedom war after 90 years that of greeks and serbs, and some of you guys are saying that it was not a war, which is even worse, think of a nation who even dont think of starting war for its freedom, and tried to start but quarter of the nation fought and the rest was not doing anything, and the worst of all is, they gave their kids to their turkish neighbors, and they taught this would be safe, now what a mentality, you are giving your kids to the people that invaded your whole country that collected taxes from you and their soldiers are massacring your nation somewhere in eastern anatolia, and u are giving your kids to those people. NOOOO this is not logical, if this is the way you protect your kids against enemy, then i wish all of you guys good luck.

If Armenians could have gotten a single province a single thing from Turks, they would never be talking about genocides today, but since they couldnt protect their nation against turks, and more than that they gave their kids to turks for protection !!!!!!!!! I dont know what type of protection that is, you give your kid to your enemy, the barbarian guy, that invaded your country 900 years ago, and hope them they will protect your kids. I will not call that fathering my kid, but you may do things like that, if this is the way you like it.

For the last time, genocide is for weak nations who cannot come together around one national problem -like freedom -

its for nations who cannot protect their people against enemy,

and its for nations who give their kids to barbarians and enemies, for protection, for sure that barbarian guy will kill your kid, whats this? a surprise for you? he is barbarian, he invaded your country, what type of father are you? and then you will cry after your people cause they were killed by barbarians.

Now thats a sad story of how a nation can be the only nation that couldnt get a victory against ottomans in 18th and 19th century, and especially while all other nations in the empire were establishing their new kingdoms and getting their lands back.

That whole genocide issue and all defeats and losses show that armenians were the only weak nation among all others, they were so desperate that they were giving their kids to the barbarians for protection, sorry guys i never heard such a talentless independence attempt. Half of the nation dont fight, they give their kids to Barbarian Turks for protection, and they end up with millions of dead people. Unsuccessful freedom attempt,if you had gotten that marash and shabin karahisar and some other places now you would be singing victory songs every day, so sad for you.

February 9, 2001

I hope and pray the God,someday,somewhere,you,your brothers,your sisters,your mother,your father,your wife,your sons,your daughters,and all the relatives you have to face the same my grandparents lived;nothing else nothing more....

Can you explain what happened to Jews the same?

What sort of human are you to say we killed more Greeks and we want to join their union(European Union-in fact they will never accept no Turks-)?

Do you shame us being weak us against a mass-massacre?

Today U.S.A may bomb you with a few nuclear or chemical weapons....will you be the shamed not to protect yourself?

As i read some posts like you i feel something so much different you and me....if you are a human what am I?

[This message has been edited by levonyeshilian (edited February 09, 2001).]

February 9, 2001

Back home from the tavern. Had enough drink. Now I can "elevate" myself to OEG's level. Will be back with my story in an hour.

February 10, 2001

I was away from my desk almost all day, today. I ask to all Armenian members of the forum not to let the forum to slip to the low level of discussions, which doesn't make us to look good, and leads nowhere.

Raven, you have nothing to contribute to this discussion, and you are out of here. When the program gets executed, you won't have access to the forum. Save your efforts, and volunteer, please.

OEG, I spent more than an hour writing the "Story of Hakob," but unfortunately lost the text while transferring it here. Cannot recover it, and would not be willing to "get drunk again."

I will only reply to one of your questions on how come some of my ancestors have trusted their children to their Turkish neighbors. Apparently they have been of better opinion on the ordinary Turkish people than you are.

But I have to tell you that I am very pleased with your postings. I appreciate your honesty and straight talk. As much as it makes an impression of you being the brutal person you probably are, and makes me to believe that were you born 85 years ago, you would've been one of the viscous murderers of helpless people, I prefer your type of people to those double-talking leaders of your nation, who don't have the courage to look in the mirror and say "Yes, we have done it." In some ways you are a better man than they are. You are what you are, and you are transparent about it. They have many different faces.

I am really eager to have a constructive dialog with the good Turkish people. I am sure there are many of them. I am sure many of them would be ashamed reading your postings. And we know such Turks from our past experiences.

I think you have basically said all you had, and it will be part of the history of our forum. You have been pretty articulate, though I will qualify your logic as monstrous. Nevertheless, your posts have been a great contribution to this forum. If the government of Turkey would acknowledge as much as you have done, I would be pretty happy.

I have only a couple of other comments.

Yes, I admit that our ancestors have made significant mistakes, and we have paid a very high price. It is a long and ongoing discussion among ourselves. But I can assure that we are poised not to repeat the same mistakes. Don't be tempted.

I have to also admit that the arrogance of your postings is indicative of your proneness to the same kind of mistakes as our ancestors have made. The excessive arrogance clouds one's judgement and leads him to forget his realities, and understand on what grounds does he stand.

Always remember that the seemingly might of Turkey is like a helium filled balloon. You should not fly hanging off of that balloon. It would not sustain the high pressures of new times. Ottomans have been mighty, and they have been brought onto their knees. Turkey would've been the most insignificant country of the region after 1920, if first Russians, and next Americans and Europeans would've not rushed in to lift Turkey up from whatever consideration. Don't be so arrogant. The world changes rapidly, and you may wake one day up recognizing a new reality, which may imply that the role of the political prostitute that Turkey has plaid for the last 80 years, at least, may not be needed. Nobody may want to land Turkey financial or military assistance any more, because nobody might need Turkey. Are you sure people like you are going to be able to run that huge country, full of misery?

Also think of USSR. Its leaders were as arrogant as you are. 20 years ago nobody would've belived it would disappear. And if one would've claimed it, people would've thought he was crazy.

But I, for one thing, am not interested in Turkey's turmoil. We share a common space with Turkey. I would rather want to see Turkey to become a civilized country, with dignified people, with whom we may live side-by-side, and collaborate in the interest of both and all nations of the region.

However, it requires a new face for Turkey. New people, who would be on much higher levels of morality than you are. I am sure they exist. And as I have said, I am eager to engage with those people. And I am sure that they will come to the surface pretty soon.

I know that this dialog is going to be pretty difficult, and not only because of the attitude of Turks, but also our own people.

I personally am willing to cross that extra mile.

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited February 09, 2001).]

February 10, 2001

For the last time i have a few questions and then i am out of here, because it looks like that none of you will answer my simple questions.

First of all, when i admit that my whole nation and me are barbarians and wild nomads from asia, you tell me that my thoughts are monstrous and i have a low level of moral, looks like i dont have the right to call my nation and myself barbarians, wild nomads or whatever all those armenians in this forum called. Yes we are all that you said, barbarian guys, uncivilised nomads, mongols from central asia, and i seriously believe that my barbarian nation butchered all those helpless people, i am convinced about all genocide issue and am willing to send faxes and letters to anywhere you want. I hope that you are comfortable now about the whole thing, because when i look at my history its all tears and pain and suffering of other nations that my barbarian ancestors ruled.

For the last time i am a member of a barbarian, uncivilised nation, (am i ashamed of it? no, cause thats all i have seen until now and it looks normal to me, cause i have never lived with a civilised nation like armenians)

Let me ask a few simple questions? you dont need to answer, just questions.

- can you give me one nation's name which has lived in eastern anatolia and did not rule armenians?

- can you give me one nation's name that you ruled in the last 2000 years.

- can you tell me one bright victory of armenians against anybody ( ruled armenians or not ) in last 2000 years?

- can you tell me if you ever won an independence war against any of those people that ruled you?

- how come you were the only nation that never tried to start an independence war against turks between 1071 and 1915

- you are christians but you never joined to crusaders? how can you explain this?

- you tried to start an indepence war against ottomans in 1910s and some of your nation fought and the others never joined them, and you can proudly talk about that!

- aren't you ashamed of being called as "loyal nation" by the barbarian emperors (ottoman sultans)

- How can you explain all those helpless people massacred by ottoman turkish soldiers, where were their men? and how could they ever leave their wives?

- do you guys think that it is logical to leave your kids in some turkish family's house? As they are barbarians, and an uncivilised nation, dont u ever think that they could have killed your kids? or maybe your ancestors did not think like that because turks were not barbarians at the time? then how come most of the people in this forum call turks as barbarians and uncivilised nation. who is right? your ancestors or those american citizen never have seen armenia, never will serve in armenian army, fax sending letter writing guys?

- How come a looootttt of Armenians still listen to Turkish Singers, read Turkish newspapers, watch old Turkish movies, talk Turkish between them and willing to go to Turkey? Why are those civilised people do what barbarians do?

( once i have seen 20-25 armenians watching a soccer game between GS and BJK of Turkey, they were even telling each other how they won the last game, and this time it will be the same and stuff, they were like hooligans of that two Turkish teams)

- can you show me 5 turkish people reading armenian newspaper, listening to armenian singers, watching armenian TV, supporting armenian soccer teams, and talking armenian between each other?

- why do you think civilised nations follow uncivilised and barbarian ones? and those civilised nations try to jump the border and work illegally in an uncivilised nation, like turkey

- how come civilised nations buy their food from uncivilised ones, and when you go to downtown of those civilised nation's capital, the only thing you see is Turkish stuff from Turkey.

- and have u ever seen one single nation which goes after the uncivilised ones, which speaks the language of barbarians, when they have their own beautiful language.

Looks like you guys should come together at least only once in your whole history and decide whether Turks and Turkish government is your enemy or not.

And for MJ, you will wait a looooottt of time to see those good Turks, there is no good Turk, and you will never be able to find good turks and convince them that my government should give you guys some land, cause that day, bad Turks will send that government to armenia,

And last word is about what Turks gave to the world, well who cares about world, who? Turks care about Turks, we never tried to give something to the world, we are not capable of those kind of things, we are not armenians, but my whole nation gave me that great feeling of being SAFE, Turks are safe with Turks, Turks need nobody, when Turks are together, no enemy can come and massacre my family, they gave me that being safe feeling, thats all i need, the rest of the stuff you smart guys can invent and we can just imitate them after sometime just like chinese guys do. BTW belly dance is arabic and kabab must be armenian or greek or maybe turkish who knows and who cares?

God created armenians and americans and europeans for the favor of human being, you guys invent things and live in peace, we uncivilised guys do nothing. We have useless stuff like independence, being dominant in a relation with anybody no matter what, protecting the family against anything, fight together, and never let anybody rule us. When i look at the whollllleeeee Turkish History i cant see one single day, where Turks were ruled by some other nation, thats what we gave to ourselves, for the rest of the world, there are armenians and other peaceful nations inventing stuff.

February 10, 2001

We have no reasons not to answer your questions. We will do it to the best of our understanding. You have to also understand that you are not the only one that we deal with in this forum, and we also have other things to do outside the forum. So have patience, please.

I call your thoughts monstrous not because you admit the crimes committed by your nation. In fact I have commended you for it. I call your logic monstrous because from your logic it follows that whatever Turks have done to Armenians is “the way of life.” That “either you do it, or they do it to you.” Because “it looks normal to you.” That’s what is monstrous in your logic.

Some answers to your questions:

1. Other than Turks, nobody else has lived in Eastern Anatolia, who has ruled Armenian. However many other empires have ruled Armenians and anybody else in the region. I can assure you that if Turks had been in this region during Roman or Arab expansions, they would’ve also been ruled;

2. Ruling nations has not been Armenia’s prerogative. Armenia’s motto has been “Live and let live!” Armenia’s mode of life has been “Do not plunder, create your own. “ I am sure you find it naive, but that’s what it is. That’s who we are or we were;

3. The brightest victory of Armenian wars is the one in 1917 in Sardarabad – not far from Yerevan, When Armenians have demolished the Turkish Regular Army. At the same time, in the battles of Bash-Abaran and Kharakilisa, the rest of the Turkish detachments have been left running for their lives. Unfortunately, our pacifistic leaders had not figured out to pursue it further, and had forbidden the military to finish the job, by advancing into Anatolia, so that not to have the problems they have had three years later. You see, our political leaders were poets, publicists, humanists. They were not far-sighted politicians;

4. We have won our independence against Persians, against Arabs, and finally against Turks (see my previous answer regarding the battle of Sardarabad);

5. About the independence war against Turks: Kurds had not started it by 1915. Yes we have started it later – 1917. Am I proud of it? Not at all;

6. In fact Armenians of Cilicia, the only independent Armenian statehood of the time, have joined the Crusaders, and have been most instrumental in the takeover of Baghdad and Damascus by the Crusaders. Armenian Cilicia has prospered in the period of Crusaders;

7. Armenians have not fought independence war against Turkey in 1910. At that time, Armenians have tried to reform Turkey;

8. We are indeed ashamed for the Armenian loyalty to the Ottoman Empire. But we are not deniers of the history. We speak about things as they have happened, and we are capable of dealing with our feelings of shame or discomfort;

9. The men of helpless women and children were serving in the Ottoman Army, and fighting against the Russians;

10. About leaving your kids in Turkish houses. It seems to me that you are willing to deny the credit to the Turks that I am ready to give. The logic of the subsequent events has come to show that, at least in the particular case described by me in a previous posting, it had been logical, and perhaps the only available logical thing at the time. Apparently some Turks of the time have found their own Government to be barbarian. If they have not done more, perhaps because they have feared for their own lives. But there is a difference between them and you. They could’ve been trusted kids, but you, personally, could not be trusted;

11. Regarding Armenian newspapers. From what you have described so far, it should be hard to find 5 Turks who read newspapers at all, or listen to music, or do other things that normal people do. But I have no doubts that the entire Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Turkey does it, some of your academicians do it, your military teaches Armenian language to your cadets, and so on. Regarding the music. You just have to ask yourself how come the nomadic and barbarian nation that you have described Turks to be, have music at all? Whose music have they appropriated over the centuries? Who has cultivated music in the nomadic tribes?

12. Some Armenians indeed jump the border in search for work in Turkey. Am I proud of it? Not at all. But can I understand it under the current circumstances? Probably so. I can assure you that some day, Turks may jump the border of Armenian in search of work;

13. Regarding buying food. It is a sad picture for us. But we know that it is temporary. If you want to really know what is the fortune of Turkish goods in the Armenian capital, read Ali Birand’s articles, who is one of the most informed and educated sons of your nation. According to him Turkish goods are being boycotted. Additionally, we are not interested in Turkey’s being of barbarian. We are interested to see it as a civilized country. And as always, we are ready to help it to become one. Maybe we are still naive. I don’t know. But I am willing to give another shot;

14. When nations get dominated by others for prolonged times, their cultural heritage gets eroded. They start speaking the language of invaders. It has happened to our nation, too. But as soon as we have regained our independence, in the shortest period of time we have not only recovered and advanced our language, but have also produced world class literature, and world class science.

As I have stated multiple times, we are trying to come together and decide if the Turkish government or Turks, in general, are our enemy. It is a difficult process. I, personally, along with many Armenians ascribe to Churchill’s motto that there are no eternal enemies, neither there are eternal friends. I believe there are interests, and when they coincide, I am willing to pursue these interests even with the most vicious enemies of my past.

The naive romantic I may be, I am still longing to knowing good Turks. I am not asking for lands. I will not ask for lands, because I am not that naive. Even if I would want, I will not ask. I will come and take it, if I can. I, don’t need lands. Even now we have more than we can populate realistically speaking. About your government being sent to Armenia. Armenia is a blessed country. It is a beautiful place to live, create and be proud of. And I am proud of it. It has its problems now. But compared to the problems of the past these are nothing. We have been able to deal with our problems in the past, and believe me, we will be able to do so in the future, too. It has been less existed for less than 10 years, since we have regained our independence. And in these years we have managed to solve some very significant problems. Other solutions are on their way. You should rather ask yourself as how come that after Turkey’s ruling of the entire region for centuries, plundering all these nations’ wealth, appropriating their culture, having them serve your country, how come you still have not been able to build a prosperous country? You haven’t been able to build economy, to establish a proper monetary system, you still rely on foreign aid – monetary, economic and military, and your people are still suffering from poverty? If Turkey would not land its body for use to Americans and Europeans, where would it be? Do you want me to stop talking about Turkey from Armenian positions, but from American? I can do that, too. Bu do you want me to do it?

About Turkeys safety and not needing anyone. You still cannot get over your militant arrogance. Your nation may feel safe today, but that safety may evaporate in the future. It has not felt safe between 1917 and 1948. It has gotten into bed with every single major power in the world. The very fact of its joining of NATO is indicative of its feeling of safety. In our days, even the US doesn’t feel safe. How can you be so ignorant and so shortsighted?

One more thing. Chines people may be not the most creative ones. But sure they are a nation of tremendous cultural heritage, and they are working bees. Can you tell the same about your nation?

Thank you again for being candid, and sharing with us your thoughts. Your honesty, however cynical, has been appreciated. I wish further peace and feeling of safety to your family, and your nation.

Unlike others, you have not tried to deny the past of your nation, and have not tried to put a sign of equality between the murderer and the victim.

I am confident that your messages would be very instructive for our young people. Sometimes it takes a cynical person like you to teach them few things, rather than people like me. Thank you for your help.

February 10, 2001

Now, how was the deportation being implemented. Units of Turkish Regular Army were accompanying them. They were attached to the caravans of Death Marches so that to “safeguard” the helpless women, elderly, children, and men of non-conscription age in the war-time. Armenians were not allowed to take anything with them, other than what they could carry. It is not hard to understand why. Those caravans, which were being dislocated from the parts of Anatolia not far from the Syrian deserts, were being marched directly to the deserts, to die there from hunger and cold. A small portion of these people has been saved through the efforts of the Missionaries, and the people of desert – the Arab bushmets.

The ones being dislocated from the more remote provinces had a different destiny. As soon as the caravans were reaching destinations away from urban or other populated areas, with the consent of the solders Kurdish paramilitaries and special Turkish militarized units were attacking the caravans, stripping them off of their last belongings, kidnapping the girls into sexual slavery, raping women on the spot, eventually killing everybody.

These Regular Army Units, the “guardians” of deportees were being accompanied by German officers, who were documenting the process, and taking photos. The German archives, which have become available to us several years ago, serve us as one of the most valuable sources of materials to prove our allegations of the Genocide. If you can get access to Turkish archives, try to do so. See if you can do it. Then ask yourself why cannot you, as a Turkish citizen, access any document you may want to. And I am not talking about us accessing your archives. Though, I suspect that the most common item in the Turkish archives has to be the paper-shredder.

I have read the memos of a very intelligent, young Turkish lady, who alludes a story from her own experience, that she has come across a hill in a remote area in Western Anatolia, which the local Turkish population calls Red Mountain. She has asked the elderly local as why is the hill called “Red.” The answer has been that the hill is called “Red” because of the blood of thousands of Armenians people, which has been shed around that hill.

Immediately after the establishment of the Republic of Turkey, the Turkish court itself has recognized the crimes committed by Taleat and Enver, and has found them guilt in despicable crimes, though has not followed-up with the verdict. I guess that has been just a gesture directed at some external audiences. Years later, the Government of the Republic has come to denounce even the fact of this verdict.

Many Turks and many foreigners claim that Armenians still live in the past, and are angered people. By in large, they are right. But it is not good enough to make these allegations. One has to try to understand the reasons. The reasons are at least a couple. The legacy of the genocide is not an issue of the past. It is still present in the daily lives of many Armenians throughout the world. It is hard to get over the feeling of anger, when the criminals, however dead the may seem to be, still are not called to justice. It is hard to not hate the Turks of our days, if instead of joining us and condemning their past, they deny their past, and in reciprocation, they try to picture us being the criminals and the murderers.

Other then experiencing the legacy of the Genocide in their everyday life, many Armenians feel that the souls of the murdered in the valleys and on the hills of Anatolia, and the souls of perished in the deserts of Syria are still trapped there and cannot move to Heaven. These souls are hunting Armenians, and they are hunting the destiny of Turkey.

These souls tell us that we cannot get over these sad events without the Turks. That we can get over them only together. And then, we can leave the past to the past, and can move to the future together.

The subject of the Genocide, especially its logical, legal and political context is immense. I have a feeling that this is turning into a monologue. I would much rather want to see a dialog. So, I would like to hear waht our Turkish friends have to say.

February 10, 2001

OEG,

Those were not explanations. It was just a basic education.

The internal affairs of Turkey, which have no external implications, are none of our business, indeed, unless we are asked to help.

Regarding the deregulation of your markets... Who knows, we may some day be able to provide you a hand in solving that problem?

I also salute your recognition of the Genocide. I recall you coming to this forum claiming that there was no Genocide, but war, where Armenians fought bravely and died.

Like everyone, we have our weaknesses, and we have our strengths. God help us in overcoming our weaknesses! These weaknesses of today may also transform into our strenghts of the future. The world is a very dynamic place.

We are aware of another modern country, which recently thought that it could come and invade our lands. I think they have changed their opinion, since.

But with all that, I don't like mucho talk. I just like talking sense in a rational way.

Feel free to visit our forum, when you deem necessary, and good luck to you, too.

February 10, 2001

I promised to myself not to answer or to take part of these discussions, because I think that We and Turks belong to different worlds. What I do not understand is why Turks want so desperately to join our Civilization. Is it because of their inherited inferiority complex or because they think they are ready to change.

February 11, 2001

Dear MJ,

There are several policies of Turkish government and they aren't sure which one to follow till the end.I'm not an expert but as all we know some of these are:

1-Turkish people had no problem with Armenians,there were neither a genocide nor any violence agains them.

2-There may be some killings but these were

done by the Kurds or the Arabs inn the eastern region.

3-We trusted the Armenians but they sided Russians and attacked us.So this was war.

4-There's no Armenian genocide,indeed there's a Turkish genocide.

5-Yes,we killed some Armenians,but it was a punishment against their rebellion.

6-The number of victims isn't like the Armenians say.It was a small number so this can't be called a genocide.

7-Look there's a free Patriarchate in Istanbul,we're friendly to Armenians,but Armenia and the diaspora hate us.

8-If we recognize the genocide soon they'll want their land back.

9-If there was a genocide the Ottomans did it.Now we're Republic of Turkey.

10-If there was a genocide it was near a hundred years ago,it's better to forget it.

And it goes and goes and goes....I am sure they will never recognize the genocide as long as these politicians rule Turkey.I can hear their speech in the next elections''That party couldn't defend Turkey

to Europe in Armenian matter.Vote for us and we will show all the world that we didn't kill anybody''.Even the rest of the world may recognize but Turkey will never.

February 11, 2001

You're welcome MJ, It was nice talking with you and the other guys, Thank you for your explanations, you dont need to make explanations about today's Armenia, I don't care about it because its your internal affairs, and doesn't interest me at all, just like others nations' internal affairs dont interest me. If one day me or my government dont like the whole situation of your internal affairs ( that day will never come cause nobody cares about other's economic, social problems ) we will come and invade armenia and change that situation in your country.

I hope you guys will not be interested in my country's internal things, and make comments about those things, like what type of human rights and economy and monetary and this and that, if it bothers you that much you can come and deregulate them, you are always welcome.

Thats all for now and as i said i personally recognize armenian genocide and am willing to send fax and letter to france or sweden or republic of congo, basicly whereever you guys send those things. Because at the end its the duty of strong guy to help the one which is poor and weak, or which has been poor and weak.

Take care and have fun.

February 11, 2001

http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/kalinian/pamphlet/pam2.jpg

"I should like to see any power of the world destroy this race; this small tribe of unimportant people whose history is ended, whose wars have all been fought and lost, whose structures have crumbled, whose literature is unread, whose music is unheard, whose prayers are no longer uttered. Go ahead, destroy this race. Let us say that it is again 1915; there is war in the world. Destroy Armenia. See if you can do it. Send them from their homes into the desert. Let them have neither bread nor water. Burn their houses and their churches. See if they will not live again. See if they will not laugh again. See if you can stop them from mocking the big ideas of the world. You sons of bitches. Go ahead, try to destroy them."

William Saroyan

[This message has been edited by surorus (edited February 11, 2001).]

February 12, 2001

quote:

Originally posted by levonyeshilian:
Dear MJ,
There are several policies of Turkish government and they aren't sure which one to follow till the end.I'm not an expert but as all we know some of these are:
1-Turkish people had no problem with Armenians,there were neither a genocide nor any violence agains them.
2-There may be some killings but these were
done by the Kurds or the Arabs inn the eastern region.
3-We trusted the Armenians but they sided Russians and attacked us.So this was war.
4-There's no Armenian genocide,indeed there's a Turkish genocide.
5-Yes,we killed some Armenians,but it was a punishment against their rebellion.
6-The number of victims isn't like the Armenians say.It was a small number so this can't be called a genocide.
7-Look there's a free Patriarchate in Istanbul,we're friendly to Armenians,but Armenia and the diaspora hate us.
8-If we recognize the genocide soon they'll want their land back.
9-If there was a genocide the Ottomans did it.Now we're Republic of Turkey.
10-If there was a genocide it was near a hundred years ago,it's better to forget it.

And it goes and goes and goes....

And the policy changes according to the type of audience it is intended for!

3 and 4 seem to be for Turks only.

8 and 9 are for countries with their own dark pasts.

2 seems to be for all tourists in Turkey - but the Germans like 5 and the English like 10 and nothing is needed for the French because they don't give a f**k about anything except themselves.

Steve

February 13, 2001

Meant to make clear in my last posting that it is tourists I am talking about when I said the Germans, English and French. When speaking about the Armenian Genocide to tourists visiting Armenian sites in eastern Turkey, I find that French tourists just don't want to know - if they bother to reply at all they say things like "please, its nothing to do with us, we are only here on holiday", Germans will listen - but with total apathy (I get the impression that they are thinking "so what - we have done much worse" or "so what - much worse has been done to us", the English generally come away with things like "well that may be partly true, but I'm sure there are other sides to it - and why does it matter now". Other nationalities are too few in number for me to have any opinion of.

February 14, 2001

Dear MJ

Thank you for your reply. I enjoy your postings, I think they are amongst the most balanced ones in the forum. You ask me whether I accept the genocide or not. Here is my position:

1. I am not a denialist. A denialist, as far as I am concerned, is someone who will not accept the truth no matter what evidence he/she may encounter. I regret to see many Turks fall into this category, and not only in the issue of Armenian Genocide.

2. I am fully aware that my nation’s history, like any other nation’s history, contains black pages, not only regarding the treatment of the Armenians in the past but also, say, the treatment of Kurds until very recently (there has been some serious improvements in this over the past few years, let’s hope this will continue).

3. I am in general inclined to accept the tragedy of Armenians as a genocide, especially when one considers the sheer numbers involved (you say over 1.5 million Armenians died, I disagree for two reasons, of which more later, but I myself can see that at least some 600,000-800,000 died, a fact that makes one suspect of government involvement).

4. There is one fact, in fact a part of my family’s history, that in my mind weakens the Genocide stance. I quote the relevant passage from www.turkishforum.com, I know you don’t much like that website, but it contains some undeniable facts.

“Following the Entente occupation of Istanbul, the British and the French arrested a number of Ottoman political and military figures and some intellectuals on charges of war crimes. In this they were given substantial assistance by the Ottoman Liberal Union Party, which had been placed in power by the Sultan after the war, and which was anxious to do anything it could to definitively destroy the Union and Progress Party and its leaders, who had long been political enemies. Most of the prisoners were sent off to imprisonment in Malta, but the four Union and Progress leaders who had fled the country just before the occupation were tried and sentenced to death in absentia in Istanbul. Three other Government officials were sentenced to death and executed, but it was discovered later that the evidence on which the convictions had been based was false.

In the meantime, the British looked everywhere to find evidence against those who had been sent to Malta. Despite the complete cooperation of the Ottoman Liberal Union government, nothing incriminating could be found among the Ottoman government documents. Similar searches in the British archives were fruitless. Finally, in desperation, the British Foreign Office turned to the American archives in Washington, but in reply, one of their representatives, R. C. Craigie, wrote to Lord Curzon:

"I regret to inform your Lordship that there was nothing therein which could be used as evidence against the Turks who are at present being detained at Malta ... no concrete facts being given which could constitute satisfactory incriminating evidence.... The reports in question do not appear in any case to contain evidence against these Turks which would be useful even for the purpose of corroborating information already in the possession of His Majesty's Government.."(40)

Uncertain as to what should be done with prisoners, who already had been held for two years, without trial, and without even any charges being filed or evidence produced, the Foreign Office applied for advice to the Law Officers of the Crown in London, who concluded on 29 July, 1921:

"Up to the present no statements have been taken from witnesses who can depose to the truth of the charges made against the prisoners. It is indeed uncertain whether any witnesses can be found." (41)

At this time the "documents" produced by Andonian were available, but despite their desperate search for evidence which could be presented in a court of law, the British never used them because it was evident that they were forgeries. As a result, the prisoners were quietly released in 1921, without charges ever having been filed or evidence produced. “

One of those detained was my great-grandfather, a senior CUP member. He died a year after he was released of a kidney illness he contracted while in Malta.

How do you explain this? I am asking you because I cannot by accepting anything other than that what took place was not a government-planned genocide.

Remember I am not a denialist, and I do condemn the murderers of innocent people no matter what their affiliations or motives. I am prepared to accept an explanation provided that it is supported by facts & persuasively argued.

Yours,

Ali Suat

------------------

ali suat

February 14, 2001

Dear Ali,

It is good to see you here. I jus have a couple of comments for now, and I hope this conversation will pick up steadily.

First, let’s talk about the number of perished Armenians. The conventional Armenian version of coarse claims 1.5 million people. Any common sense person understands that this is only an estimate, and there is no way one can precisely tell what the exact number is. It seems to me that those numbers might've been arrived at according the following procedure. There are multiple sources of European origin, but more importantly, the records of the Armenian religious perishes, which provide us with fair estimates of the numbers of Armenians who have lived in Anatolia. Next, there are records of how many survivors have arrived to Middle Eastern and other countries. The difference perhaps is close to 1.5 millions. I am not claiming this because I know for sure. We, normally, have taken the number for granted. If there is a discrepancy here, that may very well be. In my view, the only way that we can be more precise on it is by sitting around the table with our Turkish opponents, and honestly looking at the issue. If it turns out that the number of perished was 800,000 instead of 1.5 millions, I don't think it would make our case any weaker, and the opposite doesn't make it any stronger. The fact remains that, by in large, a loyal and helpless population has been slaughtered and removed from its ancestral habitat, that this action has been organized on the highest levels of Turkish Government, etc.

Regarding Andonian, and other unconfirmed accusations. I know of Andonian only from the sources that Turkish organizations present to us. Andonian has not been some kind of well-recognized Armenian political or legal activist. Let’s assume that he has tried to advance accusations, which have not been confirmed. Theoretically speaking (since I don’t have any other basis for such arguments), I may be ready even to accept that Andonian has made up some accusations. OK. Does this prove that the accusations of the organization of the Genocide by the Turkish political and military elite of the time and on the scale we claim are fabrications? I don’t think so. Additionally, we are aware of several high-ranking officials being convicted in the Turkish courts. Please check the thread at http://armenians.com/forum/Forum10/HTML/000064.html, which provides materials, primarily based on the documents of Turkish archives, on those who have been found guilty in the organization of the massacres of Armenians.

That your grandfather, among some others, might’ve been wrongly accused, sounds to be totally in the realm of possibilities. Even in much more civic societies, and in less turbulent times, some people get accused wrongly, and unfortunately. They even get executed or spend prolonged times in incarceration. For example, last month, after serving 12 year-term in jail, a falsly accused rapist in the US has been released from imprisonment, as a result of a new proof made possible with the help of a DNA testing. But, nevertheless, the victim still remains raped.

In my view, the important thing in our dialog would be the establishment of an understanding of the motivations, the methodologies and the logic of the Genocide, rather than some technical details of it. It is also important to understand, I think, the implications that the 85 years old Genocide still has on the psychology and daily lives of Armenians, the implications that it has on the vitality of our renewed statehood, as a result of the political and economic consequences of the devastating blow sustained by our nation. But it is also important to understand, I think, that in some ways, it has very serious consequences for the lives of free spirited Turks inside and outside Turkey, and the future of Turkey. I think this issue of Armenian Genocide is the most fundamental hurdle that the Turkish society has to be able to overcome, in order to be able to build a civic society, were the members of that society enjoy basic freedoms, feel proud for their national identity, are able of uplifting the lifestyles of millions of Turkish citizens, and liberating themselves from the cliche of “the sick man of Europe.” In a way, the freedom of Turkish people is a hostage of the non-recognition of the darkest chapter of Turkish history.

But as you say, all nations have dark pages in their history. Our ability of turning over to writing brighter pages of our future always depends on how we can deal with the dark pages of the past.

I don’t want to offer another 9 mile-long reply. Let’s move steadily forward, and try to take the emotions out of these discussions, and try to establish a methodology of mutual understanding.

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited February 14, 2001).]

February 14, 2001

quote:

Originally posted by aurguplu:

“Following the Entente occupation of Istanbul, the British and the French arrested a number of Ottoman political and military figures and some intellectuals on charges of war crimes. In this they were given substantial assistance by the Ottoman Liberal Union Party, which had been placed in power by the Sultan after the war, and which was anxious to do anything it could to definitively destroy the Union and Progress Party and its leaders, who had long been political enemies. Most of the prisoners were sent off to imprisonment in Malta, but the four Union and Progress leaders who had fled the country just before the occupation were tried and sentenced to death in absentia in Istanbul. Three other Government officials were sentenced to death and executed, but it was discovered later that the evidence on which the convictions had been based was false.

In the meantime, the British looked everywhere to find evidence against those who had been sent to Malta. Despite the complete cooperation of the Ottoman Liberal Union government, nothing incriminating could be found among the Ottoman government documents. Similar searches in the British archives were fruitless. Finally, in desperation, the British Foreign Office turned to the American archives in Washington, but in reply, one of their representatives, R. C. Craigie, wrote to Lord Curzon:

"I regret to inform your Lordship that there was nothing therein which could be used as evidence against the Turks who are at present being detained at Malta ... no concrete facts being given which could constitute satisfactory incriminating evidence.... The reports in question do not appear in any case to contain evidence against these Turks which would be useful even for the purpose of corroborating information already in the possession of His Majesty's Government.."(40)

Uncertain as to what should be done with prisoners, who already had been held for two years, without trial, and without even any charges being filed or evidence produced, the Foreign Office applied for advice to the Law Officers of the Crown in London, who concluded on 29 July, 1921:

"Up to the present no statements have been taken from witnesses who can depose to the truth of the charges made against the prisoners. It is indeed uncertain whether any witnesses can be found." (41)

At this time the "documents" produced by Andonian were available, but despite their desperate search for evidence which could be presented in a court of law, the British never used them because it was evident that they were forgeries. As a result, the prisoners were quietly released in 1921, without charges ever having been filed or evidence produced. “

The above is not correct. Most of the senior CUP accused had managed to escape from Malta before any trial proceedings began. The remainder were eventually exchanged for British hostages detained illegaly by Kemalist Turkey.

Is should also be pointed out that the primary aim of detaining these CUP members was not to punish them for the Armenian genocide, but to punish them for war crimes committed against British and allied troops (especially prisoners - most of whom were simply shot). They were released quietly because the authorities did not want the British press to make a fuss over the release without punishment of prisoners accused of the murder of 1000s of British subjects. It was the Constantinople government that was to be primarily responsible for punishing those responsible for the Genocide - trials did take place and several individuals were executed, before Ataturk halted the process, set the accused free, and decreed that the mass-murderers who were executed were now national heroes. There are streets named after them (and other CUP ideologs) in Ankara (although Ataturk later had many CUP leaders executed when he felt his dictatorship was threatened).

Steve

February 15, 2001

Dear MJ,

Thank you for your prompt reply. I fully agree with you that the numbers in themselves does not strenghten or weaken your case in any way. Hitler killed six million Jews because he couldn’t get hold of more. If he had killed three million instead his crime would have not been halved. Genocide is a matter of motive rather than numbers.

I shall give you the two reasons (in fact, more, now that I think of it) why I think the number was closer to 600,000-800,000 than the 1.5 million commonly suggested by the Armenians.

There is some serious controversy about the number of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire at the time. Turks put it as low as 1,295,000, and Armenians some time as high as 2,500,000. Turks obviously do have a vested interest in showing the number as low as possible, as do the Armenians in showing it as high as possible. Moreover, both sides make the mistake of omitting some key facts regarding the sources for the numbers:

The Turkish word “millet”, now used to denote “nation”, originally meant “religious community”. This meant on the one hand that a) the records of the Armenian Patriarchate contained the numbers of those who were affiliates of the Armenian church regardless of ethnic origin (i.e. if you were a Christian belinging to some other ethnicity but a member of the Armenian church, like the Bosnian Bogomils, for instance), and quite a few Armenians affiliated to other churches (like the Greek Orthodox or Roman Catholic, for instance), and most importantly, none of the Muslim Armenians (I mean specifically the Hemshinlis) were not recorded as Armenians.

The Ottoman censuses were taken for tax and military purposes, and the female component was much less vigorously researched, as neither the government nor the various Ottoman subjects (incl. The Armenians) thought that much of women (let’s face it, the area where we live has a history of male dominance that predates both the Turkish arrival and Islam). The Ottoman censuses themselves have several components of uncertainty built into them (none of them propagandist in nature), so I guess an open-minded Turkish historian would not disagree with a number somewhere between 1,500,000 to 2,000,000. So I think one should be very careful when assessing the numbers of any part of the Ottoman Empire at the time.

These are the two facts concerning the sources. Now a third fact, very disturbing to both Turks and - potentially – to the Armenians:

No exact toll of the dead were ever taken, and could be taken given the circumstances. In assessing the dead, the Armenians – and the Turks- simply deduced the number of the survivors from the original number (which, as we saw, is a matter of fierce debate). The remainder was taken to be the number of the “dead”, whereas it should more correctly have been labelled “reported missing”.

Now we all know that a number of Armenians who had lived with theTurks and Kurds side by side and had cordial relations with them had entrusted their children with their neighbours. One still hears in territorial disputes in eastern Anatolia, when arguments get heated “after all, your grandfather was Armenian” “so what, so was your grandmother” and so on.

The second fact, never mentioned aloud in Turkey, is that an enormous number of those deported, and later pronounced dead on the grounds that they failed to show up, actually survived. Given the very delicate – and potentially explosive – nature of the subject it can never be discussed freely in Turkey at the moment, but you keep hearing such things from so many diverse places in Turkey, and in such numbers, that you come to suspect that an enormous number – probably in the realm of well over a hundred thousand – of the “dead” are alive and kicking after all. Allow me to write a few lines more on this:

An enormous number of the Kurdish tribes in the east – and a similar number of Turkish settlements, notably in east Anatolia, in the Taurus mountains, in and around Adana – notably Kozan -, probably in some regions of the Black Sea – in the east, around Rize, Trabzon, Gumushhane, in the west, around Kastamonu, sporadic places in the Aegean and Marmara regions, had, until recently, a very large number of men and women in their late 80s and 90s who are of Armenian origin, who (or whose families) had converted to Islam after their return from the deportations. I myself have heard from many east Anatolian Turks (less from Kurds, they don’t like to talk about it) that their grand-grandmother-father, distant cousin, or whatever, was of Armenian origin. Quite a few villages in the east are wholly of Armenian origin but Muslim now.

Usually it is impossible to physically distinguish the different ethnicities from a given region in Anatolia, but it was possible to distinguish people of whatever origin who came from diverse regions. Thus, you cannot distinguish an Armenian from Elazýg (Mamuretul Aziz in Ottoman) from a Turk or a Kurd from the same city, but if you supplant that Armenian to a Turkmen tribe in the Taurus mountains, who are physically distinct from the rest of Anatolians, the physical differences are pretty obvious. Turkmens are a very strange lot physically: middle height, white skin, Asian features (high cheekbones, slanted eyes), green eyes, and brown to blond hair. They speak a more Central-Asian sounding Turkish, but their features are an interesting mixture of the Caucasian and Mongol races, and they certainly don’t look a bit like the Armenians. They are known to have saved entire Armenian villages from the deportations, and the descendants of these are still visible.

Also, I heard very interesting stories from quite a few people from the localities where the deportations and killings occurred. I shall “reconstruct” the main features of them below, personal names, and place-names and other details are mine:

Ersis is a predominantly Armenian town in east Anatolia. They have good relations with their Muslim neighbours. One day news of the deportations reach the city, so they prepare for it: they sell everything they could (save the immovables), convert it into gold, which they bury in several different places in and around the town before the deportations. The entire city, of course, knows where the gold is buried. Then they get deported. When the killings start, Dikran turns tail to save his own family and tells the Turks – or Kurds – that he can give them valuable info if they let him and his family escape. The Turks – or Kurds – agree. Dikran asks that he and the male members of his family be circumcised, which is done, and receives the name “Dilaver”. “Dilaver” gives the authorities the locations of some (not all) of the hoards on a map, then makes off. With his new identity, he goes back to the village, digs up the rest, and builds himself a new life as a Turk in the newly established Republic of Turkey. He and his family don’t suffer much from the cultural shock, because Turkey then has officially rejected Islam, severed its ties with the past (to the point of changing the alphabet), the mosque is all but banned, the veil, although never actually illegal, is most strongly discouraged so his wife and daughters don’t have to wear one, he can drink, do his own trade etc, and is fully assimilated into Turkish society. His children go to University, some become doctors, some engineers, some businessmen, marry Turkish women (“Dilaver” never makes the mistake of looking for other Armenian families whom he knows did the same), and are still alive and kicking and rich, and members of the Turkish elite.

Kozan is another Anatolian town, where the Armenians are a significant minority. Killings and deportations are rampant. Boghos ends up in the deportations with his family. He bribes the officials the same way to save his family & himself. He comes back after the deportations with his new identity. The goods of the Armenians, together with the land, are being distributed to the poor Anatolian peasants and to the Balkan Muslim refugees. Preference is given to those who can make good use of the land, and who have some inkling of trade. Besides, money opens all doors. Boghos then digs up his own hoard of gold that he had buried some place, not forgetting that of his neighbour Levon, who – what a pity – had perished with all his family somewhere in Syria.

Boghos (now Bekir, a proper Muslim name) then starts to buy land. The land that he buys is not the best for cultivation, nor is it particularly close to town, or suitable for the latter expansion of the city, but it is the place where most of the remaining gold is buried. He sells most (not all) of the gold, then buys some land just outside the city, this time in the regions where he anticipates (a euphemism for “he knows, as he has bribed the Turkish administration beforehand”) the city will expand. When this happens, and the place is declared as the site of economic expansion, he either sells the land to would-be entrepreneurs, or gets credit from the state itself and sets up his own textile plant.

Faik is a Turkish officer on duty in Adana during the deportations. He doesn’t have a personal grudge to the Armenians, and like most of the rest of the officers, has no idea what the CUP is up to. He suddenly finds himself heading a group of deportees to Syria, and has already heard of the stories of the fate of the previous deportees en route. He is given control of the caravan, and he knows that most of his men are civilised and would rather not take part in the crimes. Besides, there is an attractive young lady called Gayane and her family among the deportees, who, in addition to her looks, is also well educated, can play the piano, and appreciates painting (Faik studied painting while a cadet) and Faik enjoys his conversations with Gayane and her family, who also appreciate the young man’s civility, education and ideals. Faik, together with some of his closest colleagues, decides that they have to do something to save the deportees, and tells this to Gayane’s family. There are very few things money cannot do, and buying freedom for prisoners is not one of them. Gayane’s family trusts Faik and his colleagues, and tells them the place where their community buried the gold. Faik gets the gold. At some place en route, a Kurdish tribe blocks the way and demands that the prisoners be given as ransom for passage. They agree, give over the prisoners, who are destined to be sold, then recover them from the slave market with their own money. Had the Armenians themselves attempted to do this, their money would be taken and they would still have ended up as prisoners.

(By the way, did you know that when you declare your property for tax purposes in Turkey, you do not have to declare the gold, or at least, how you have acquired it? This makes gold a particularly convenient asset to park your wealth and evade tax.)

Faik and her colleagues then set the prisoners free. Gayane chooses to stay and becomes Gaye (a Muslim name) of her own accord (her family mumbles and grumbles about this, but not more than that), and marries Faik. The family still lives in Turkey, but obviously with a different surname.

Karekin was an Armenian from Kozan near Adana, and he had very good relations with the there resident Turkish tribe, a branch of the Afshar confederation. That branch had some quarrel with some Sultan way back, and the entire branch was deported to Cyprus, a well-known fact. What is not so well known was that the Armenians who sided with them were also deported. About fifty years later, the war erupts, the Ottoman Empire crumbles, and the new Republic emerges. Cyprus is a British protectorate, and a descendant of Karekin (the family had recently become Muslim) with a half Turkish-half Arabic name comes to Turkey, enrolls at the military school, throws the Arabic component away from his name and adopts a fully Turkic name of a past Turkish hero, has a brilliant military career, gets mixed up in one of the numerous military interventions in Turkey, and after return to democracy, enters politics and spends the rest of his life as a major right-wing figure in Turkish politics. Some of the rest of his family are still Armenian, though, a fact which surprises their various neighbours greatly, given the political persuasion of the person in question.

Who are these people?

Hint: in the last story, I have given enough details to enable you to identify the persons in question, if you do your homework properly. Of course his Armenian origin can, by the very nature of his political affiliation, can hardly ever be whispered. The first three are reconstructions of three scenarios a, b, and c respectively, and can be culled in many different parts of Turkey with slight variations, but the last one refers to one specific person. If you can, don't give me the full name, but just the initials, and I will tell you whether you got it.

I am giving you this info because I have always suspected that the official line in Turkey was so weak that they could not have realised that they cannot defend their position with such arguments. Turks are capable of generating very good arguments and winning debates when they feel they have to, and the reason they are not doing this with the Armenian question must be something else. Of this more later.

Yours,

Ali Suat

February 15, 2001

Ali,

Please keep going on. This is an incredible perspective. Give me some time to do my homework, and I will report you the results per your suggestion.

I will also appeal to some Armenian historians to find out where does our version of 1.5 millions of suffered come from.

Cheers,

Martin

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited February 15, 2001).]

February 15, 2001

A. T.(the head of Turkish fascist party)....I've heard it too

[This message has been edited by levonyeshilian (edited February 15, 2001).]

February 16, 2001

Yepp Levon you got it right. I had first heard it from someone who had suffered as his sometime neighbour (this guy used to make the new recruits to that party (whose name I shall not write in full) ululate as he went to bed (his version of lulling himself to sleep) to feel in the Altai mountains. The neighbours of course hated it but couldn’t do anything for fear of getting gunned down, and it was such a big surprise to them when some of his cousins, who visited him, turned out to be Armenian, that word went about town in The Whisper Times (Fýsýltý Gazetesi) at lightning speed. Later I heard it from some ex-that party guys, and later still, from some Armenians. I then had the civility not to ask the Armenians how they felt about it, it is obviously a most nauseating thing to think about.

Martin now back to what I think are the reasons for the Turkish attitude.

1. Financial Implications: After the purge of the Christians, their wealth was distributed amongst the Anatolian Turks and Muslim Balkan refugees. A good part of the current wealth of some major Turkish conglomerates has its origins in this, which is well known, and this would give them some serious headache should the genocide recognition pave the way for financial compensation, because the government, probably unable to pay the huge sum in question, would eventually pass the buck to those conglomerates who are sitting on Armenian wealth.

2. National Consciousness: This goes much deeper than the cash. As you would perhaps know, Turkish nationalism developed rather later than, say, Greek or other Balkan nationalism. In Ottoman times there was almost none of it after the conquest of Constantinople, very probably because the Empire was multiethnic, all ethnicities were recognised, and contrary to both Turkish and European perceptions of it, all of them played a very significant role in its administration, and had vested political and financial interests in keeping it alive. To a certain extent it can be compared to the United States of today, as much as you can compare an essentially medieval polity with a modern one. And also, the last thing you want in an Empire is the founding element boasting about its ethnic origins, for it is a surefire method to bring an Empire of multiple ethnicities living in the same territory down; and it is the main reason why these stupid Germans could not hold the German Reich together (there was so much hatred and fear of Stalin in Russia that if they were not obsessed with this Aryan race taurid excrement, they had a good chance of bringing the Soviet Union down).

In late Ottoman times, the general status of Turks fell so low that by the end of the 19th Century “Turk” was used as a derogatory term in the Istanbul dialect, mainly to refer to the illiterate Anatolian peasant. In an era where nationalism was speading like bushfire, the first nationalisms to emerge in Ottoman soil were the Balkan Christian, Jewish, other Christian (including Armenian), non-Turkish Muslim, and lastly, Turkish nationalism.

The idea of Turkish nationalism had its roots in the Freie Universitaet Berlin, where many nationalists had studied, and rediscovered a Central Asian Turkish past which did have its glories, for the first time in almost a thousand years (There were almost no references to the Central Asian past in Ottoman historiography, save the vague references that we came from Khorassan. Ottomans were interested in the Islamic, not Turkic, history.). Turkish nationalism then acquired a rather ugly racist tint, partly in response to the equally racist tint of the other nationalisms it had to fight, and partly because nationalism those days was everywhere invariably linked with racism in any case.

Many of the founders of Turkish nationalism were of non-Turkic origin, many of the others were Central Asian, Crimean Tatar, or Azeri, with very few Anatolian Turks. Shemseddin Samy Frascheri, who wrote the first Turkish dictionary along western linguistic principles, and who called the Turks “our nation” was an Albanian, and his family was playing a significant role in the Albanian revolutionary movement at the same time as he was writing his dictionary. Tekin Alp, one of the founders of the Turkish nationalistic dogma, was a Jew from Serez. Ziya Gokalp, the famous “founder of Turkish nationalism”, who introduced Durkheim’s philosophy to Turkey, was a Kurd from Lice, Diyarbekir (though he made conflicting statements as to his origins). He never thought Kurds were Turks, by the way. And so the list goes. There are numerous cases actually when one (Muslim) branch of a certain family from Greece fights against the Greek insurgents in Creta or the other Aegean Islands, and the other (Christian) branch takes part in the liberation movement of Greece! (It is a well known, but rarely mentioned fact, that partial conversion was a matter of course in Ottoman times). These cases are frequently so well documented that you can still find individual members (cousins in arms) of the families concerned who took part in the conflicts.

So I hope you see what I am getting at. A hard look at the Armenian question would – quite unwittingly - throw light on the emergence of Turkish nationalism itself, and we would discover a very different version of the formation of our recent intellectual past than the one we were fed throughout our education, and we would start to have a very different conception of ourselves, and our “enemies”. This would affect the status, or even livelihood, of those centres of influence in our society that make a living out of disseminating hatred.

Turkey is not alone in this, if you look at German Nazism, it is another witches’ brew: Himmler, Hitler’s right-hand, was half Jewish, Hitler himself always feared that he might have been the result of the rape of his mother by a Jewish landlord where she was working as an unmarried young woman, and further back, Karl Marx is known to have written some very unsavoury things about the Jews, when he came from a family of Jewish converts to Christianity.

I shall write more on this, but I think at the moment this is long enough. I am waiting to hear your comments.

Yours,

Ali Suat

February 16, 2001

Dear Ali,

You have opened for us a whole new dimension. Some of us perhaps might’ve speculated in the past on the destiny of some of the deportees, as well as the “Armenian gold.” But your explanations are the first systematic attempt of looking at the event from the angel that you have presented. It is incredibly interesting, and it is persuasive, at least to me.

I have only a couple of brief comments regarding the 2 reasons of Turkish attitude you have alluded.

1. As far as the financial implications are concerned, I guess the expectations of these implications are common sense expectations, not outside the realm of existing perceptions. However, I don’t see it being such a scary thing for the Turkish government or its private sector. I would conjecture a possibility of creative solutions, which might benefit both sides. Basically, the financial implications may be routed towards the venue of creative business endeavors, rather than penalties. Obviously, being a private citizen, I am alluding here just a personal opinion.

2. I would readily accept that the Turkish nationalism has been absent in the Ottoman Empire at least up to the first half of the 18th century. The best evidence of it is the absence of any revolts or national liberation movements from the Armenian side. Obviously, this doesn’t imply absence of Turkish imperialism. But the imperialistic aspirations are not idiosyncratic to Turks only, but are characteristic to all countries which have had the might to implement it. For a short period of time (the era of Tigran the Great), even our ancestors have had these aspirations. I am also ready to concede that Balkan and Greek nationalistic sentiments have come to manifest themselves earlier than those of Armenian and Turkish origins. We have been sort of slow along these lines, and perhaps it has its reasons, like anything else on the earth.

I think the nationalism has become especially ugly, when it has been accompanied with revolutionary aspirations – especially those of socialistic character - at least temporarily socialistic. This is true in the case of German nationalism, in the case of Armenian nationalism, and I would conjecture also in the case of Turkish nationalism, though I haven’t studied the last from this angle.

I think I can see what you are getting in.

The picture you have described reminds me a very funny Polish movie (comedy) that I have seen many years ago. I think it was called “Amazons.” It is about a nuclear catastrophe, which supposedly destroys the civilization the way we know it. In the result, only a group of women survives in an underground facility. They find a way of continuing the human race through genetic engineering applied to female eggs. If the eggs would turn to produce males, they would destroy these eggs, those preserving only the female fetuses. Then, their idealogists start teaching History of Torture of Women by their once male partners. They even illustrate the tools of torture recovered in the result of the archeological discoveries of their specialists, one of them being a wine bottle opener. All goes well until, two sarcophaguses with two frozen male species are being discovered. The men are being brought back in life. This starts a whole new controversy in the female civilization. Three of the more open minded Amazons try to get to the bottom of things. They are fiercely being persecuted by the bosses of their colony, who threaten to kill the men, so that to prevent the possibility of the spread of the male race. Eventually, the two females run away with the men. Having no choice, they leave their secure underground compound, and head towards the outside territories - supposedly radiological affected areas. They go in masks, until they discover life outside – they see chickens, goats etc, running around a beautiful villa, in a beautiful garden. They take their masks off, enter the house, where they find a refrigerator full of organic food, drinks, etc. Given that the male race was practically eliminated, they immediately proceed to its recreation. Suddenly, they hear a noise –like of an elevator. The doors open in the house, and the leader of the female colony enters the house. The fight breaks up. In the fight, after “she” loses her wig, the two males discover that in reality “she” is “he.” So he starts telling the whole story. It turns out that the nuclear catastrophe has been of a small and local character, which has wiped out primarily the male population, working in that area. Women have survived, and have lived underground for a while. It turns out that they have found that they enjoy the absence of men better – they enjoy wider freedoms, and don’t want to return to the old times (all these take lace sometime in the middle of the 21st century). But their leadership has always known that the radiation is gone from some point on, and it has been safe to go outside. But they have rejected to do so, because under the conditions of the restrictions applied on the women, it has been easier to advocate preservation of the female colony without males. It turns out that the current leader of the colony, one of the fiercest anti-male women there, has been a kid at the time of the catastrophe. His mother has dressed him like a girl, to save his life. So he has learned to play the game. He has become an activist, and gradually has advanced along the electoral ladder. But now that three are three attractive females outside the underground facility, and there are three males, they decide to establish a new colony. Meanwhile, the colony in the underground facility continues its “regular” way of life, with a strong conviction that all the escaped have probably died in the nuclearly contaminated outside world. The three men decide that the leader of the underground facility, the cross-dressed man, will preserve his status underground, and will go down periodically, and bring up female representatives one at a time, so that to accelerate the success of the recreation of the male race. It was a very well made comedy.

Back to the subject. I think in the era of economic and cultural Globalization it would be impossible to stop the process that has already started. It may be possible slow it down, however. I think sooner or later, the current leadership of Turkey (especially the military) will realize that this process is irreversible. Sooner or later some smarter (not less nationalistic, however) leaders will emerge with an understanding that they would rather concede some, but save the whole, rather than in the spirit of the denial and self-denial, take everything down with them. I think this is inevitable. Resisting to what is inevitable would only make the descent more painful.

Similar to the processes in financial markets, when you have an isolated and regulated market, the processes may be controlled, and sharp discrepancies may be preserved. But as soon as the markets are opened, the manipulation and collusion are prevented, and the rules of the game are liberalized, market equilibrium gets established. I am sure that this is where the International Globalization will lead. Those who are in the bottom, currently, would not lose, because there is only one way for them to go – up.

But I started to speak too abstractly. Let’s get back down to the earth.

P.S. I am working along the lines of identification of the sources of evidence putting the numbers of perished Armenians in the Genocide at 1.5 million people.

February 16, 2001

Ali,

I am most fascinated. Please keep going on.

Btw, do you study history for living or as a hobby?

Your knowledge on the subjects seems to be pretty thorough.

February 17, 2001

Dear Martin,

I think you got the nail in the head with the parallel between the Turkish case and the Polish movie. I recall having seen something similar to that eons ago, but since it was such a long time ago, and since there are so many of such stories in actual human history (my favoured reading material) that my attention might have been focussed on the realities in front of me rather than artistic interpretations of it (not that I do not value those interpretations, but I happen to be one of those who considers the real, unadulterated truth to be far more interesting than literary interpretations of it).

I think your research with the actual numbers of the dead will take long, and I doubt you will be able to find all that much. at least one of the reasons for this will be the refusal on the part of some archivists on both sides to cooperate. Anyway, as I had stated earlier, if the Genocide was really a Genocide, it won’t mutate into something else if the numbers turn out to be 600,000-800,000 as some on the Turkish side are prepared to accept, or 1,500,000 as most on the Armenian side claim. What does it matter whether you are drowning in the open sea or in a lake? Both have enough water to drown you.

An Armenian friend of mine from high school in Belgium had once told me after having been defeated by me in an argument about this topic “Listen Ali, I don’t care if my grandparents were killed in a genocide or in a massacre. They were killed.” At that time I had fully agreed with him because my aim was to prove there was no genocide (my knowledge of history was greater, and arguments more persuasive, so he ended up believing that there might not have been a genocide after all). God, we all have a dark past, don’t we? I guess it’s part of being human.

Now a few more things about Turkish nationalism:

As stated earlier, there never was much of a pronounced national feeling among Anatolian Turks during either the Seljukid or the Ottoman times. This was partly because they had descended from the Southwestern (Oghuz) tribes, who had been predominantly nomadic when they first entered the cultural sphere of Islam. There they encountered two great civilisations: that of the Arabs and the Persians, and since they found their nomadic culture rather meagre in comparison, they adopted that culture almost wholesale. They did have major contributions to Islamic, and world, civilisation, but as this occurred in an Islamic, and not Turkic, milieu, it is not readily apparent to the layman. A few examples: Ibn Sina, the world famous medical scholar and philosopher of the 11th? 12th? Century (I am writing this at late hours in the office, and don’t have my references here), whose opus magnum Al-Shifa “Health” was the principal medical textbook in Europe until the 18th Century, was a Turk from Balkh in present-day Afghanistan. Another Turk, Jawhari, was one of the greatest of Arabic linguists, whose work al-Sihah can still be used as a guide to Classical Arabic (if you know the methodology). Yet another is a Central Asian Turk who lived in Konya, Anatolia in the late 12th-early 13th Century, Mawlana Jalaleddin-i Rumi (Rumi means “Anatolian”, originally, “Roman”). He was a philosopher and founder of the Mawlawite sect with a universal appeal, which still has many adherents the world over. He wrote in Persian but mentioned himself that he was a Turk. The list goes on, not only in the sciences and belles lettres, but in arts, too, but I shall stop here as this is not a history lesson about Great Turks in History.

The eastern Turks, mainly the Uighurs, had their own civilisation, much influenced by China, Tibet and Buddhist India, influencing them in turn as well. They are responsible for the transmission of a number of Chinese inventions of momentous importance to the West: paper (invented by the Chinese, used by the Uighurs, passed on to the Arabs, who in turn passed it on to Europe), the printing press (this perhaps was not the direct ancestor of the movable type of Gutenberg, but the idea was in place several centuries before him, and Uighur printed matter predates the European ones by a few centuries), probably the water compass, paper currency (introduced by the Mongols to Iran, it soon had to be abandoned, because people were unaccustomed to the idea of giving gold and getting paper in return), and last but not least, the vaccine against smallpox, which Lady Montagu, wife of a British ambassador in Ottoman Turkey, informed the west about, and then the Swiss Edward Jenner developed it further to get the present vaccine. It had probably passed from the Chinese to the Uighurs, and from them to us.

Turks themselves, on the other hand, are probably responsible for the domestication of the horse as a draught animal (Central Asia is the only place where the wild ancestors of the domestic horse still live), and equine technology with it, and other modest items like yoghurt.

Now it is true that Turks were transmittors and developers of high culture rather than inventors of it, but so were the Romans, the Japanese, and the Aztecs, who have little original material of their own in their culture, but we owe the preservation of much Greek, Chinese and Mayan heritage to them. I have written this because I saw in many places – including this web site – Turks being portrayed as a barbarian race with no positive contribution to the world, this, apart from being a result of ignorance, prejudice and hatred, is also demonstrably wrong. Turks on the other hand are equally incorrect in ascribing things to their own ancestors wrongly and giving themselves a role in world civilisation that they did not play. If one sees history through unprejudiced eyes, the various nature of the contributions of diverse nations can be more fully appreciated.

Now back to my suspicions about the Anatolian Turks:

Historians have tried to explain the almost total absence of Turkish nationalist consciousness, and of Central Asian memories, by the overwhelming nature of the Arabic and Persian civilisations, as well as the inferiority complex of the Turks in the face of these great civilisations. This is partially correct, but there is at least another vital factor that is being overlooked: it is not only the Turkish nationalist consciousness, awareness of a Central Asian past, and a distinctly Turkish culture that are by and large absent from Anatolia: the Central Asian physical type, too, is curiously absent. Now you can abandon your culture, national awareness, language, religion etc, but about the physical type there is nothing you can do: it is there to stay.

In Turkey, you cannot tell the various ethnic groups from a given region by their looks. You can, or could, tell people from various regions, though. We a a nation have always known this, as we had known (it is part of our folk memory) that we had mingled with the local Anatolians when we came here. But when the Soviet Union collapsed, and Central Asian Turks became a frequent sight in Turkey, it became abundantly clear that we may be related to them linguistically, culturally, and ethnically (whatever that means), but genetically we are worlds apart.

What we (or, more accurately, the Turkish layman) don’t know is the mass conversions that took place in Anatolia after our arrival. This is far more than mingling, and is again one of the semi-taboo subjects in Turkey (as Greeks have their private nighmare that they may be Slavs, we have our own little private nightmare that we may be Greeks, Armenians, Arabs, Persians, or – God forbid – Serbs). I recall from my scholar days that a certain Ottoman Tahrir Defteri (Survey Book) of an eastern province from the 16th Century could not be published on account of the numerous names in it such as Dikran, Boghos, Ani, Sorpik etc. together with many Muslims names that all ended up in “ibn/bint Abdullah”, which means “son/daughter of the slave of God”, a customary way to refer to first generation converts to Islam. The Armenian names themselves would not have been a problem were it not for the fact that they occurred in the same pages as the ibns and bints, giving a clear indication of the origin of those converts. The book was not allowed to be published by the authorities, some of whom came from the province in question, and were the direct descendants of these ibns and bints!

The Black Sea Region of Turkey is one of the most conservative parts of my country, where both the Islamic and Fascist parties routinely get the lion share of the votes. The Turkish Fascist party is curiously the strongest in areas where the population is devoutly Muslim, against the use of anything other than Turkish in administration or even in schools, and speak Pontic Greek at home (Greek voters for a Turkish Fascist Party founded by an Armenian. Anything can happen in Turkey)!

A study was conducted several years ago in a region bordering the Black Sea, which included genetic mapping. The genetic mapping revealed that the local (Muslim)population was of Armenian descent. There was such an outrage in the region that people refused to cooperate with the researchers, and the study had to be abandoned before completion.

Genetic research now frequently accompanies archaeological digs in Turkey, especially in the Aegean, and in almost every case skeletons are available, the local population turns out to be the genetic descendants of the ancients. Aegeans are less uncomfortable with the idea that they may be Greeks than Eastern Anatolians are about the idea that they may be Armenians. I guess this has something to do with the recent thaw with Greece, tourism (they make a lot of money out of that), better education, and (my personal observation) people close to the sea side or some other large body of water tend to be milder than mountain or steppe people. Water seems to have a soothing effect.

What the above (excluding the Pontic Greeks) boils down to is that we are basically the same genetically as the other Anatolians. We will need a long time to come to terms with this, and when we will, we will have a different perception of ourselves and our neighbours and former enemies.

I shall develop the paragraph about the Greek voters of a Turkish fascist party founded by an Armenian later. I think this is long enough now.

Cheers,

Ali Suat

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