Genocide

[Guest]

Guys, please, let me answer this one. I'll be back as soon as possible.

[Guest]

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Originally posted by BTac:
Let's say that the Armenian Genocide did not take place, for the sake of argument. Even so Turks would still have a reputation for being a barbaric, violent nation disliked by many. I know for a fact that Greeks feel dislike for Turks, and so do Kurds, both groups having been opressed. In addition in many European nations the word "turk" is the equivalent to an insult, applied to someone irrational and/or violent. Obviously this does not really PROVE anything since it's nothing academic, but it does say something about this GREAT nation which for centuries has lived off other people's sorrow and would not have anything today unless backed by the U.S. (just because it's a military ally)

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Buna sara!
You know whome we realy need in this situation?
My beloved Vlad Tepes
He was sooooo right about the Turks!
Well,he had a very effective recipie against them...hope you get it

[Guest]

Buna Sera,seniorita,

Buna Sera, ...

 

A. Chelentano

[Guest]

OEG it was interesting to read your long posting. I praise your honesty, yet I have to make corrections of your perception of Armenians. You are right about Armenians: they are brave people. They will rather die for their honor then ask for mercy. Your analogy is somewhat right, in wars people kill and get killed. Yet you fail to realize that in 1915 there was not a war. Armenian soldiers were serving in Ottoman Army, leaving their kids behind to be butchered by yenicheris. In 1915 there was a systematic extermination of one ethnic group, Armenians. It was done mainly by taking man away and leaving helpless children and woman behind, preys for your bloodthirsty people. I guess it’s not your fault that you don’t have mercy for human life. Killing has been an accepted norm in Turkish culture for hundreds of years. That’s what separates us, the civilized people, from you, the barbarians. How can you justify killing of helpless person. I don’t know about you, but my culture taught me to feel sorrow and have mercy toward helpless. When one is down, even if it’s an enemy, not kick him / her on the head but help him. I guess your people haven’t changed a bit since they first came over to civilized Middle East. Even living next to civilized nations hasn’t taught you a bit about mercy. We, unlike you, prefer to resolve our disagreements without shedding blood in a diplomatic way. However when we are forced we can rise to the occasion. The Karabach conflict and our subsequent victory over your Caucasian brothers is a proof that when the enemy doesn’t accept diplomacy we will take on the arms and get our victory. We don’s long for blood, unlike you, and don’t consider dead as martyrs. Our mothers cry when their sons die, because they don’t have a heart that’s made out of a stone. Don’t worry we will get our lands back, but preferably without much bloodshed. We are too civilized, and prefer arguments to be settled behind diplomatic tables.

[Guest]

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Originally posted by OEG:
Go direct for what you want, and its land, not recognition, or apology.

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OEG,


Thank you for being open and sharing with your thoughts. I think the real issue is not the land. The Diaspora Armenians will never come back to Eastern Anatolia, the Armenian Republic would not be able handle that land neither with its current population nor with out its population, and finally I don't think it is possible to remove 20 to 30 million people from the land and give it to somebody. All, Armenians need is a historical justice, an apology and a regret, an openness, and cooperation. The genocide victims will ask for compensations, which I think they deserve and it is their right to ask for. The compensation claims could be handled in various international courts. The most important implications of recognition of Armenian genocide would be that no country in future including Turkey would dare to repeat such a bloody act to other nations.

[Guest]

Thank you guys.

[Guest]

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Originally posted by Berj:
Thank you guys.

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Berj,


We were waiting for your answer, it is still not late.

[Guest]

First of all, I speak only for myself. Do not confuse me with the whole Armenian perspective, unless they choose to line up behind my views.

 

With that, you and I think along similar circumstances. Yes, I do want my land back, but I realize I will probably never get it. What will I seek to do? Sue you for back rent and about 85 years interest.

 

You see, it wasn't war. Yeah, some Armenians did take up arms. This was merely in response to the already organized massacres. You see, none of the great Armenian fedayi from 1915 come from Kharpert or Bitlis, etc. You see, these were the Western provinces- they were already dead. Any organized resistance came from the Eastern provinces. Simple geography dictates that any Armenian army that came into being was in response to already orchestrated massacres.

 

With that, it was NOT total war between two nations. As you said, Turkey was fighting three fronts. If the Armenians realy did rise up in rebellion, the Turks would have been crushed at Galipoli, the Armenians and their allies would've crushed you, and you would be a small overrun nation.

 

The Turks didn't do the bulk of the actual killing, they just orchestrated it. The reason the Turks were clearing the area of the Armenians was to creat a unified Turkish nation. Armenians were Christians, thus they could not be Turkish, even though they could speak Turkish. However, other Muslims were readily willing to become Turks. These included Balkan Albanians and Caucasian Muslims, namely Chechens.

 

This is well evidenced. While studying in Turkey, Hilmar Kaiser spoke with Kurds in Eastern Anatolia. They told him how some people who lived in their village were Albanians who the Turks brought in to ethnically purify the area.

 

I again reitirate, if it was a war, the Turks would've been routed. These were the Turks who decided to surprise the Russians by attacking early, in the winter and not the summer. So, how did they travel? They went through the snow-capped mountains in- their summer gear! Half froze to death, the other half were slaughtered by the Russians. Let's not forget the idiotic tactics on the Arabian front.

 

Now, take these Turkish soldiers and have them attack Armenians when the Armenians have the home field advantage. Oh wow. Look at what we did to the Azeris recently. Look at what we did (Sardarapad) when we were ready. We are experts at guerilla warfare.

 

Combine these factors- Turks preoccupied on other fronts, Turks who have idiotic leadership, and Armenians who are excellent at guerilla warfare. What do you get? A big-time blowout, a route. You would've been destroyed. So the whole war BS just doesn't fly.

 

Weak people cry Genocide? Israel fended off the entire Arab world. They cry Genocide. Armenians only lose because they're outnumbered. We 'cry Genocide'. So that whole BS doesn't fly.

 

Armenians killed Turks? When? Where? Armenians couldn't be armed! It was illegal. Read my Armenian Supermen post... that pretty much kills that theory.

 

Like I said, I would love to go toe-to-toe with a Turk, for my land, for my people. I would relish the opportunity to send all of you back to inner-Mongolia, but I realize that this will never happen. But it won't stop me from attaining much more possible goals- reparation, recognition, restoration.

 

Perhaps you should give us back Ani and Massis (Ararat), seeing as how you have absolute no use for them whatsoever.

[Guest]

What we are discussing here is not Armenian military capabilities but the Genocide perpetrated by Young Turks Government. No doubt, Armenian military victories and fame were well known since ancient times. The participation of Armenians in the wars between Bizantium and Persia and earlier between Rome and Persia had played decisive role for the success of the respective campaigns. Later Armenian units fought bravely under Ukrainian and Polish flag thus bringing victories to their respective patrons and were one of the most desired soldiers. For a long period of time mercenary services were main sources of income for many Armenians. It is worth noting that in Russo-Turkish wars especially in the Caucasian front large number of Armenians were among regular and voluntary Russian forces. The comandership of the Russian army in those wars consisted of Armenian generals, Der-Gukasov and Melikov come to mind. During the Balkan war, Armenian battalion of 300 soldiers under the commandership of General Antranig have shown exceptional bravery and liberated many towns and villages in Eastern Trace. During the WWII we thought Germans a lesson too, being one of the firsts to enter Berlin- 87 Tamanian Division.

All of the above have nothing to do with the cowered and barbaric acts committed by the turks against peaceful civilians, predominantly elderly, women and children. And this is our point. One should learn to distinguish between being a martyr in a war, and being slain UNARMED in front of your home.

[Guest]

Hi,

Do you see the plan of the republic of turkey got successful in this forum???We started to tell we didn't kill any Turks in our posts...They aren't as idiot as we think so.

[Guest]

The message below has been moved here from our guestbook

 

Posted: February 8, 2001 10:38 PT

From:ali suat urguplu

Email: aurguplu@yahoo.com

 

hello

i am a turk from istanbul. i have been visiting your web site with great interest, and have also read most of the entries in the forums re genocide.

 

allow me to add at this point that although most turks do not accept genocide claims, most actually do accept the massacres themselves, and many do not feel about them much different from you. none of these butchers who massacred innocent armenians could live today in turkey and boast openly that they killed so many defenceless men, women, and children, and not face very strong public outrage.

 

what people do not accept is planned, premeditated government involvement (though a growing number privately admit that they suspect at least an inner clique in the committee of the union and progress that masterminded the operation) to extermiðnate the armenians because they were armenians, and most are indignant at the proposal that the armenian tragedy could be compared to the jewish holocaust. they would be prepared to draw parallels between bosnia and 1915, though. this is what we deny, not the fact that the atrocities took place.

 

most are also indignant at the fact that the armenians portray themselves as only the victims, as if they had not been in active armed struggle against the ottoman government prior to the deportations, during which enormous number of muslims were massacred by armenian guerillas. please remember that there are still several million people in turkey who come from families who have lost at least one member at the hands of these gangs and the russians and the french who were with them. some of you say that turks think the way they think because they have been fed fascist government propaganda for so long. this is partly true, but if your grandparents' village were raised to the ground by someone called hachador and his gang from the neighbouring village, you don't need any propaganda from anyone to think the way you do.

 

these are indisputable historical facts that the armenian historians themselves never sought to deny.

 

and we think it is only justice that if we express regret for the tragedy and sorrow and sympathy for the armenian victims and their relatives, the armenians could at the very least admit that they too were responsible for many things that would not make them proud, acts that they traditionally ascribe to turks and turks alone.

 

it is time for us to do some soul-searching. don't you think it is time for you to do the same, too?

 

and, one last word: i see many references to turks as a primitive mongol race incapable of any civilised behaviour, and who should be sent back to mongolia etc.

 

ever heard of racism, you?

 

i still hope there is some voice of reason out there with whom i can have a balanced discussion.

 

yours,

 

ali suat

[Guest]

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Originally posted by OEG:
Well, its not just serbs and greeks and bulgarians and armenians, all of the countries we ruled for years hate us because we RULED them, we told them what to do, we controlled them when they wanted to do something, we collected taxes from them, thats true we conquered all those countries one by one, none of them could even resist a day, the most brave ones were the greeks, who resisted for 154 years, until 1453. After that they were history until 1825. Think of it, you are erasing a whole nation from the history for 400 years, but then suddenly in 1825 they got their freedom again by making a war against ottomans, and they got what they wanted, a real war, man to man woman to woman, you'll either lose it or win it, no mercy, one wants to get his freedom the other wants to keep his lands and sources, what a holy war, no trigerrers trying to kill some poor diplomatic man, nobody is putting bombs in airline offices and kills the kids inside (I mean ASALA), they make a real war.

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Any historian who studies history combining it with parallel subjects affecting the causes and effects of historic events comes to conclusion that no historic fact (even an archeologic item) can be proved unless discussed along with mathematics, physical and climatic geography, biology, music, anatomy etc. So the reasons why Seljuc and Ottoman tribes managed to conquer Anatolia are far deeper than just the fighting capabilities of nomadic tribes. To find out the real reasons of their success it's necessary to analise the whole political and economic situation of our region of those times. There is only one argument that proves each and every reason of military success. It is the LUCK. Another conclusion that a historian studying history by above mentioned method comes to is that all nations of this world have similar fighting capabilities. Skipping all other conclusion I would like to mention that ASALA existed only because we didn't have a chance to fight other way. Armenia was a part of the USSR and Armenians were serving in its army which was implementing its government's policy which didn't have goal to liberate Armenian lands of Turkey. You can clearly see that ASALA stopped functioning after the establishment of present Armenian state.

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Have you ever heard Greeks talk about a Genocide made during the 1825?

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1825 war between Greeks and Turks was a clear uprising (very much like the uprising of Karabagh Armenians in 1988 against Azerbaijan). You can see the difference between and uprising and a Genocide by simply finding the frontline where armies confront. The frontline of 1915 "Armenian-Turkish War" stretches from Istanbul to Syria and looks very zigzag.

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What right, what human? You have to kill otherwise he will kill you.

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We'll take this into consideration. I wonder why our government is even discussing the closure of the Metsamor Nuclear Power Station. We have excellent physics. All we need is just 2-3 missiles. But no, we're Christian Armenians...

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Anyways... more than a million people died during balkan wars, maybe half Turk half Greeks and Serbs and Romanians, who knows? Who talks about it today?

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Romanians got all their lands back. Greeks and Serbs talk about it a lot. They never forget it. Serbs already had a little bit of revenge over Albanians. If not for NATO who knows what would happen to Turkey.

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There is a saying in Turkish " War is a sacred, holy thing ".
Turks never cry for the people they lose in a war, they believe that its a very holy thing to get killed in a war and you become a martyr, and they never ask mercy for their martyrs from other countries.

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So why did Turkey ask for mersy for Albanians and Chechens. Let them fight their holy war against Serbs and Russians.

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We all know and understand each other very well, cause we are all easterns, you are not more civilized than i am or i am not more civilized than you are, we are all same *hit under different names.

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OK, we Armenians understand perfectly what is honor, tasib, namus, pushtunvali. In Armenian it is all said in one word-"chisht" (truth). So wait until we gather 60 million population, and then we will fight a war you're talking about.

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Now if i go back to the genocide issue again, i am sure that none of those armenian people killed during the WW1, begged for mercy from ottoman soldiers,

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The overwelming majority of killed were women, children, elders. All they asked for was mercy. Those unarmed were silent.

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no army can kill 1.5 million people in a day or in a week especially where there is still no transportation facilities

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Exactly. That is why it is called a Genocide. A perfectly organised collective slughter or inforced starvation of unarmed people. If you inforce people to move to deserts, not killing them, but keeping them hungry for weeks in incircled camps, it's also a genocide. This way you don't even waist bullets. Hundreds of thousands of Armenians died just like that.

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Armenians are not jews in Germany, Jews never fought or they never had to defend themselves for centuries, but Armenians were living in an empire which was fighting in 3 fronts,

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Review the history of Turkey of 1915. When the Genocide started Turkey was having just some minor clashes on its borders. When Turkey got really involved in fighting in 1916-1917, the Genocide was in its peak and went on by inertion. In 1916-1917 period most of Armenians were already in Syria's deserts straving from hunger. The timing was also correct.

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The best proof of Armenians fought like real brave men is that genocide issue, if they had run away there would be no genocide or no armenians to kill, if 1.5 million people were killed that was the result of the war between your grand father and mine.

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My grandfather got his first ever rifle in 1918 when he crossed the border to the Russian part of Armenia.

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In Turkish there is a saying, "the one who loses, wants to fight again and again"

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If the one who won is refusing to even accept that he won (though violating the rules of the game).

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So Armenians lost that fight and they lost their families, kids, women, but the most honorable thing is they died in this war. Before they went to the other world, for sure they took some enemy with them, they were not jews in germany, they fought until they fall, what an honor. I respect that and we all do,

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Thanks.

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Now,
Armenians have an unfinished business with Turks. According to you, I live on your main land, that soil i am stepping on is yours, and you absolutely have the right to want it back, and i absolutely have the right to fight for it.

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Again, wait until we collect 1 million army. If not we will fight with everything handy we have: diplomacy, allies etc.

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Again, In turkish there is a saying,
"if there is blood on your flag, then its really your flag
if there is anybody willing to die for that dry soil, then its your land its your country"

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In our flag we have blood, freedom and industriousness. You have blood and Islam.

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I am sure that there must be a saying like that in Armenian, and you know what i mean.
You want that land back, you have to fight for it, You become many, and one day you knock on the door in the border and tell that one Turkish soldier that you are back for your land and for your ancestors, and you have an unfinished business with Turks, and its the time to finish that, then your grand grand fathers will be very happy watching you from the heaven and will say that their grand grand sons are back to fight just like the way they did. like a man, and then you either get that land back or not, if you do i am pretty sure that you will feel sorry for the people that will die during this war, but you will know that your land is now really yours cause your people died for it and there is enemy's blood on the flag. Now how can i cry for the people you will kill during that war? how? how can i go to some other country and ask them to confirm or recognize that my enemy killed my people. Of course he will, thats why i call him enemy, enemy kills, enemy has no mercy, enemy is enemy, my people will fight and you will kill, i cant see anything wrong with that, the baby you killed is my honor, that baby has gone to heaven and he/she fought for his/her country without even realizing that, the time that soldier took to kill that baby, gave my army some time, maybe one of my soldiers killed one of yours while your other guy was busy with killing a baby.

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War isn't like that now. It's just one missile with 10 nuclear warheads. If you don't want war let's talk about what you have to give us back to stop that fighting. We will not ask for too much. We have a perfect logic. Just deal with us logically.

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Your people died when they were trying to establish a new country, they sided with russians and french armies. If they were successful, now you would have a country that is 5-6 times bigger than today's Armenia
maybe 60-70 million population, but my folks made it and now i have the land and i am the winner of that game for now, the game is not finished yet, and it never does. If you wanna keep playing, cause im the winner and i want the game finish like that, but you dont want, we may play again, so u want one more maybe two more maybe countless plays, until you win. I respect that, as long as you knock on my door and ask me to play once more, one to one, i am always in to it. But dont bring audience(France, USA, This congress and that council and this mayor and that newspaper blah blah) audience have nothing to do with our game, do you think i will lose everything -i earned with my blood- on the table?

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Are you gonna wait until we collect 1 million army. No? Than its counsils, congresses, no way to get into Europe, Diaspora, USA, France, Russia, nucs and everything else. Or let's just talk and agree like humans (the primary goal of which is to keep babies alive). If you see honor in letting a baby to die than Europe will always refer to you as "those turks".

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If you want to ask something from Turkey, ask for land? try to get your land back? dont ask an apology from the enemy for killing your people, thats a big evidence of weakness, but you guys are not weak, that recognition and then apology and then land thing will not make your martyrs comfortable in the other world. Go direct for what you want, and its land, not recognition, or apology.

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Dear Turk, I'm the Armenian who waited for a whole history to look you in your eyes and fight with you with a dagger like real easterner. But you always behaved like a nomad. You used everything against me. Everything what Satan uses against God. You even robbed my blood to fight against me with me. And now you already look completely like me. And I already understand that I'm fighting against me who thinks he is a Turk. Just accept that you violated the rules of the game. Any game must have rules. Because in a game with no rules nobody wins. The winner will confront a new winner. And if nobody sets rules for this game, the game will collaps.

[This message has been edited by Berj (edited February 08, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Berj (edited February 08, 2001).]

[Guest]

Ber, I would like to congratulate you for your last post. I hope turks will get the message. Nevertheless, I want to make few remarks to OEG. Turks have won many battles but they have never won a war. Never in their history since their coming to Europe. The whole paradox and irony of the WWI is the perfect example. They lost the war and they continue to occupy Western Armenia. If the assumption that there was a war and not a Genocide is correct than Armenians as allies of the Entente, and consequently as winners should have been paid reparations and should have taken back their lands.

[Guest]

Dear Ali,

 

I think you should feel welcome to post your thoughts directly in our forum, rather than the guest-book. Many of us don’t check the guest-book.

 

You say that most of the Turks accept massacres, but they don’t accept their qualification as Genocide. I have few comments to you, but first a question – do you accept it? My feeling is that you do, correct me if I am wrong, please.

 

The issue of the qualification of the event subject to discussion as Genocide is the cornerstone of the entire controversy, and that’s where the solution rests.

 

It is obvious to me that throughout the existence of Ottoman Empire, enormous numbers of Turks have perished. But things have to be put in the right context.

 

We, Armenians, have been residing on this territory for almost 2000 years, before the first Turk-Seljuks have appeared on the stage of the region. We already had our problems. The country was already devastated. We were constantly being torn apart by the Byzantine and Persians, who always wanted to impose on us their will. Even if Byzantine and Persians had to settle their own scores, they were doing it on the territory of Armenia, subsequently plundering and burning our villages, murdering our people.

Throughout the first millennium of the Christian era, Armenia has been weakened dramatically by the endless wars, and the endless expeditions of not only the two empires mentioned above, but also by Arabs. Subsequently, add to this the Mongol invasion and devastation, though many historians attest that these latest invaders have been preferential to their predecessors. The evolution of the establishment of the Turkish presence has taken place under these circumstances. Things have gradually slipped away from us.

 

If you have read some of my earlier postings, you might know that I place a large share of a blame on ourselves. But let’s look at the reality.

 

OK. For centuries, we have been under the dominance of Byzantines, Persians, Arabs, Mongols, and finally, Turks and Russians. Perhaps until the 18th century, the Turkish yoke has not been significantly worse than all of the previous ones. People have come to accept it by in large – not that I am taking pride in this. Beginning the second half of the 18th century, the conditions of Armenians under the Ottoman Empire have become much worse. Abductions of children have become routine practices. Boys have been abducted to convert tem into yenicharies (I’m sure I don’t know how to spell this word.), girls have been abducted to serve the needs of Sultans and *****s, and other wealthy Turks, the taxes imposed on our villagers, who have been one of the primary sources of revenues of the Ottoman Empire have increased – the Turkish population and the Ottoman Army were on the rise, while the Armenian population was on the decline in the result of the systematic policies conducted by the sultans, so Armenians had to work twice as hard. The demography of the Armenian ancestral lands was being deliberately changed by settling Kurds in the area of Van, etc. Armenians were being forced into a cultural transformation, being taken away from their cultural roots, etc.

 

So, what was the reply of Armenians to all this. First of all, Armenians have lobbied heavily in the palace of the Sultan, bribing the viziers, and other officials, for no vale. Then, they have turned their eyes towards the European powers. This effort has not yielded in any results for almost 100 years. Finally, at the Treaty of San Stefano (1878), and later in the Berlin Conference (1885), the Armenian plight has become an International issues with a very limited scope, that is of implementations of Cultural Reforms. It has excited many Armenians. One of my maternal ancestors, a renowned lawyer of his times, among others, has plugged into the task of the implementation of these reforms, and the adjustments of the constitution of the Ottoman Empire. All hopes have evaporated. And the conditions of Armenians have continued to worsen. By 1890, things have really become unbearable. The first massacres of Armenians have taken place about this time – in Adana. Tens of thousands of Armenians, men, women, children, elderly have been butchered in their homes and in front of the houses by the solders of the regular army of the sultan. There was no revolt at this time, there was no issue of siding with the Russians, and there were no Armenian gorilla formations at the time. In fact, the analysis of the facts (I believe I have referred you to some sources in the past) comes to demonstrate that these massacres were organized as a prelude of the large-scale Genocide-to-come, with the purpose of measuring the pulse of European countries, as to see what was going to be their reaction – were they going to swallow it, or were they going to insist on the implementation of Cultural Reforms that the Sultan had agreed to. This is where and when it starts. It has turned out that Europe was cool. A green light of indeference was given. Few other such massacres have taken place since then, and before the implementation of the large-scale one ,effective 1915, on which we have an ongoing debate.

 

During the insurgence of the Young Turks, Armenians got overly excited, since they saw this development as an opportunity providing with a framework for the long overdue reforms. And they were promised by the leadership of Young Turks that in case of overturning the hated monarchy – hated equally by many Turks and Armenians, Armenians will be granted significant freedoms within the framework of the Republic. And they have believed, and they have bought in. They have joined the revolutionary forces of the reform minded wing of the Turkish society, they have risked their lives for their revolutionary brothers, and have paid the price for it in the result of the periodic expeditions of sultan’s forces in Armenian quarters of Istanbul, but more significantly – in rural areas, away from the sight of the European consulates. Should we blame Armenian leaders for their naiveness and adventurism? I would. (Perhaps I am not alone in this feeling, since during the Beirut Civil War of 1970’s the Armenian leadership demonstrated greater wisdom, resulted from the critical analysis of the past, and managed to secure the lives of the Armenian minority. A lesson well learned!)

 

Before the beginning of WWI, Armenian massacres of localized character have been taking place throughout rural Anatolia – both Western and Eastern. You can imagine that the discontent among the Armenian leadership was on the rise, and they might’ve expressed it many times to their revolutionary brothers of Turkish origin.

 

In late 1913, or perhaps early 1914 (sorry, don’t have the material handy were I am, currently), the Russian Czar Alexander issues his infamous Address to the Armenian People, informing them about Russia’s entry into the WWI, and invites his Armenian brothers in faith to join under his “invincible” flag against Turkey, promising Armenians freedom after the victory over the Ottomans. According to the Turkish political circles of the time (I have come across some significant publications of Turkish origin, while I have been residing in Armenia), this address had been issued to be heard not as much by the Eastern Armenians, but by the Western Armenians. The address itself, along with the history of hostilities with the Russian Empire, has been a subject of a serious concern for the Turkish military elite.

 

If we picture the infrastructures of communications of Ottoman Turkey of that time, and the total isolation of Western Armenians from the Eastern Armenians, it should’ve taken extremely long time for this message to get across the rural Turkey populated by Armenians, for Armenians to get organized, to acquire arms, given that for few decades they were being periodically disarmed by the Turkish officials, and be so stupid, as to revolt against Turkey - far away from the Russian-Turkish front. In fact, the situation was the opposite – in fear of Armenians siding with the Russians, the military elite of Turkey, the core of which consisted of the Young Turks, among them Taleat, Enver and Jemal *****s, with whom Armenian revolutionaries had maintained very close ties, and with whom the had a lot of hopes associated, implemented this grandiose dream of Sultans of the last 25 years – the depopulation of Turkey from Armenians. The first strike came from these *****s. The first chunk of the people eliminated was the entire Armenian elite of Istanbul. Writers, musicians, publicists, doctors, etc, - loyal subject of the Ottoman Empire, who had been some of the most faithful allies of the mentioned trio, and some of them (I think Grigor Zohrab) had personally risked their lives, hiding Talat ***** in their house, to save him from the rage of the Sultan. That was on April 24, 1915. The Armenian population of Turkey was beheaded. That was the first strike of the Turkish government, and not some kind of Kurdish paramilitaries. This is why we commemorate the Genocide of Armenians on that date, by the way.

 

(to be continued)

 

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited February 08, 2001).]

[Guest]

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Originally posted by gamavor:
If the assumption that there was a war and not a Genocide is correct than Armenians as allies of the Entente, and consequently as winners should have been paid reparations and should have taken back their lands.

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Thank you Gamavor.
From 1915 to 1918 we didn't have a state to ba an ally of Entente. Though the political leaders of Armenians in Turkey communicated with Europe, there was no link between their activities and the situation in Western Armenia. So Armenians of Turkey in 1915-1918 period cannot be called allies of any state. There were some small deffencive uprisings in Moush, Bilis, Sasoun, the defence of Van. When the Czarist Russian Army entered Van in 1916 and saved its population which resisted thanks to Aram Manoukian, the population of Moush, Sasoun, Bitlis, Erseroum, Arabkir etc was already either dead or in Syria's deserts. In May 1918 the Russian part of Armenia was declared a republic. So the Armenian state entered the political arena when the Genocide was almost complete. Only after 1918 Armenia and only the Armenian's of the Russian Part of Armenia can be refered to as somebody's allies. The Entente gave us the lands of Western Armenia for being their ally for some months. Actually, it had nothing to do with their feelings towards us. Russia was in chaos so they already didn't need Turkey with Bosporus, Western Armenia and Kurdistan together and decided to devide it. But Ataturk sided with Russia already controlied by the bolsheviks who provided him with arms and gold, then he changed his orientation towards Europe and America, which again needed united Turkey to confront the already founded USSR. In all that mess, mer hanrahayt azgaser kusakcutyune made a stupid decision, which resulted in loss of Kars, Ardahan and Surmalu.



[This message has been edited by Berj (edited February 08, 2001).]

[Guest]

I join Berj, to support all his arguments alluded in his last message, and urge everybody not to lose the context of the development of the events.

 

Since I suspect this thread is going to evolve for long time, I urge our Turkish opponents to provide exact dates, locations, and events, when siting Armenian gorilla or gang activities on the territory of Ottoman Empire. I also have similar request to my Armenian compatriots. I am not trying to be academic, and I understand this is not the place for academic debates.

 

But in such a highly charged and emotional subject it is very easy to mix the result with the causation. Therefore, I urge to be a little bit disciplined in our arguments, so that we arrive to something, and don't go in infinite circles of "he said, she said" accusations.

 

Meanwhile, as my time allows, I'll continue writing my unfinished material.

[Guest]

The next strike of the Turkish Government was the conscription of its male Armenian subjects, primarily into the Labor battalions of the Army. Which means that Armenian men, who had left their families behind, did not have access to serious arms, nor they had military training, and were not in the position to revolt. Occasionally, these battalions had been destructed directly by other Turkish military units, or frequently by throwing them into the battlefield against the Russian regular army on the capacity of human waves, to be annihilated. I believe it would be very hard to insinuate that either one of so far described two large-scale operations – the elimination of intelligentsia, and the destruction of the Armenian battalions had not been organized on a governmental level.

 

But let’s move on.

 

So what we have by now? What we have is, by in large, a vastly decentralized population of Armenian women, children, elderly, and men of a non-conscription age during the time of war. They compact residence is of local character – spread throughout the entire empire.

 

Now, Taleat and Enver *****s issue an order to deport this helpless population to Syria through the desert of Der-El-Zore. Several years ago, the official line of the Turkish government was that it has been done so that to assure the safety of the Armenian minority during the war time. It seems that the underlying idea in our days has become that it was a punishment for Armenians for their non-loyalty. There is at least some progress here.

 

Is there any logic, which may support an argument that this deportation, which has taken place on the scale of the entire empire, has not been done according to the orders from the central government? Is it possible to deport the entire Armenian minority, short of the one in Istanbul, without the direct orders from the central government?

 

This has started shortly after the annihilation of the intelligentsia, some time in late May of 1915.

 

Before we go into the subject of discussing the logical details of the deportation, let’s look at what was really going on. Were even all Armenians being deported?

 

In fact, not everybody was being deported. Many were being executed on the spot. Their houses were being raided, women were being raped in front of their children, girls kidnapped into sexual slavery, men were being butchered on their porches, and the motto was “Armenians are rich, let’s get their gold.”

 

You may say these are all emotions. No! This is a family story.

 

My paternal grandfather’s family has been a very wealthy and prominent one on the scale of the entire empire – they have been manufacturers of white canvas, possessing enormous financial and real estate wealth. The family has consisted of four boys, three girls, their parents, uncles, aunts, servants, maids – you name it. Their house has been raided in the night. At the time, my grandfather has been 11 years old, and has been the youngest child in the family. When the house has been raided, he has run and hidden himself in the kennel of their dog, outside the house. He has spent there all night, shivering of the fear that he will be found, while hearing the non-stopping screams of his sisters, and mother, and hearing the gun shots afterwards. He has stayed in the kennel till next night, when he has run over the countless dead bodies on the streets of once prosperous city of Shabin-Garahisar, in the darkness of the night, smelling the odor of burnt human flesh. He has run to the mountains, eventually knocking the door of what would be a Kurdish old women, a witch and an abuser, who would hire him as a servant – a kid who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth had to serve a Kurdish witch, to be abused, and to be starved to a degree, that one night, when she would be asleep, he would eat the oil in the jar, knowing well that he would be killed next morning when she finds out. So he would run away. He would run for years, travelling between different Kurdish settlements, to eventually end up in Syria. The rest of the details are not to the point. But there is one more point to be made.

 

In 1930s, he has found one of his cousins in the US. These two were the only survivors of a large extended, wealthy family. Since late 1940’s, after moving to Armenia, for almost 25 years my grandfather was having an add published in every issue of once famous Armenian newspaper being delivered to all Armenian Diasporan communities – “Hayreniki Dzain,” searching for his brothers, sisters, cousins, etc. He never found anybody. His survived cousin was doing the same from the American side. He has not found anyone, either. I think it is not hard to guess their destiny. These people did not even have the chance to be deported.

 

I was 18, when he died. He was an examplary patriotic man. He used to talk about their house and their lands every day. He missed them every single day of his life. He used to say “I don’t want much. Just to be able to swim one more time in our river Murat.” I have never heard him to use derogatory words towards Turks, to express hatred or anger. He was calm. He never taught me to be a racist, as you claim us to be, nor to hate Turks. He didn’t dream that I would grow up and avenge for his family. He dreamed of me to graduate from a university. Perhaps because this was his unfulfilled dream, the dream of which he was deprived of in the result of the action of the butchers I described above. Because he was not a descendent of butchers, himself. He was from a happy family, which cherished dreams for him, and his brothers and sisters. They were not rebels, nor gorillas. They were tax-payers of the Ottoman Empire.

 

Now, about those who have been deported. Let me give you the brief story of my maternal grandfather’s family. They were a family of architects and constructors for centuries. I can assure you that in the province of Marash, you and your compatriots would perhaps still cross over some old bridges, built by this line of my ancestors. My grandpa used to take such an overwhelming pride in this...

 

This is a family, which was deported to a death march to the deserts of Der-El-Zore. He was the elder brother, and had a younger brother and a sister. They were also a happy family – not gorillas, not gang members, but people of craft. They even carried that craft as a family name – Tashchyan. He was about eight years old at the time. While walking through the desert, one day their parents had asked another group of younger Armenians to take the children with them, saying that they are tired, and will catch them up next day at a location, which was rumored to be a temporary French Missionery, recovering the deportees who had so far survived. They never made it. We think they had realized that their strength was abandoning them, and had decided to give the children a chance to survive. We think they have frozen to death in the desert during the night. Kids were indeed delivered to Syria by the French. From the age of eight, my grandfather has worked to feed his younger brother and sister. He has raised them while being a kid himself. Things have worked out for them in a peculiar way. He could not go to school, because he had to work to feed his siblings, and pay their way throughout the school. He would sit next to his literate brother every night, however, would have him to loudly read the entire Armenian classic literature for both of them, so that somehow to be able to continue the legacy of his ancestors. In 1946, he has also moved to Armenia with his family – his wife and four children. He would start building his house stone-by-stone in Armenia. In the cold winter of 1949, while his house was being built, and there were no doors and windows on it yet, but curtains only, but they had moved into the house because they had no where else to go, my grandmother would give birth to her fifth child. The neighbors would visit her, and take my mother away, so that she wouldn’t see her mom being fed, so that not to ask for food. Almost 35 year after the beginning of the Genocide, the legacy of the Genocide was continuing for my family. My grandparents used to talk Turkish to each other, though Armenian to us. I was about 20 and 27, when they died, respectively. In my whole life, I have never heard them either to use derogatory words against Turks, or any expressions of hatred. They were silent on the subject. My grandfather was silent almost all of his life. He would not speak unless you talk to him directly. He would sit quietly, and his mind would be somewhere far away, his eyes would look as if penetrating through the walls of the house, and every half an our or so, you would hear only one sound “Aah...”

 

These are two stories of one family, only. Now multiply it by the number of suffered. I felt I couldn’t provide you with anything better then these stories, though could point to many such accounts in the literature. But this was story, which I have a first-hand experience with. Neither this grandfather nor grandmother of mine taught me to racism or hatred towards Turks. They didn’t expect me to avenge for them. They also had one dream for me – to see me to graduate from a university. This was also her unfulfilled dream, because her father was a very educated man. One of the most famous teachers in Turkey, also residing in Marash. He was the sole delegate of teachers of Turkey in the 1903 St. Petersburg World Congress of Teachers. This man was also butchered. And he was neither a gorilla, nor a gang member. My grandmother had no memories of her parents. She was too young, along with her sister, when their parents were murdered. I remember one day, when she already was over sixty, an older man came to us with a thick book called “The History of Marash.” He opened a picture, pointed to a man and said to her “This is your father. He was a famous man. He was my teacher.” Only tears came down to my grandma’s face. At that time, after all the stresses of her life, she was blind, and couldn’t even see the face of her father. And the man also showed another picture, and said “This is your uncle. He was a famous lawyer.” This was in late 1970’s. The legacy of the Genocide was not over for her, either.

 

For the sake of the fairness, I have to say that my paternal grandmother has been saved along with her older brother and sister by their Turkish neighbors. Their parents had known perhaps that there are rumors of massacres. They have asked their neighbor to let the children stay with them that night. And they have been right, since that’s the last time my grandmother recalled seeing her parents. This has taken place in the city called Arabkir - far away from the Russian-Turkish front. There are no accounts of Armenian rebellion in this region, either.

 

The thing is that the legacy of the Genocide continues for all of us, and the behavior of your compatriots doesn’t let it go.

 

I will continue on the legal and historic aspects of the issue in my subsequent postings. But I would like to ask you if you still get an impression of racism from us, or can you just consider a possibility that the hatred towards Turks by Armenians may have deeply rooted reasons, and perhaps for many it is not as much of a hatred as it is a fear. And maybe your Government and your people are constantly pouring oil on the flame of this hatred and fear, and through their denial they are controlling this state of mind of some segments of Armenian population worldwide, as if performing some kind of woodoo magic.

 

 

(To be continued)

 

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited February 08, 2001).]

[Guest]

Lets say Agop is a 8-9 year old nice hardworking student in an elementary school, he is doing well in everything, he is a silent guy, and he sits in the best desk in the class, One day a Turkish guy osman attends to this school, he is a big guy with strong arms and legs, he is good at fighting, and he wants to sit in that desk where agop sits, he beats agop up and gets the desk, all guys and girls in the class hate osman cause he gets everything he wants by beating them, but noone can say anything to osman cause he is dangerous.One day Igor the russian guy attends to the same class and starts fighting with Osman, during the time agop comes in to the class and starts fighting with agop against osman, osman tells him that after he finishes with igor he will take care of agop, and right after that, osman beats agop terribly, he kicks him in the face and kidneys and here and there, osman was almost killing agop, for sure osman is a wild guy, and he harmed agop terribly, now agop sits next to igor cause he is the only one who can save him to be beaten up again,

But agop starts complaining to his teacher madame francois, and principal mr johnie white, he tells them to kick this guy out of his desk, he tells them that he did not fight with osman, osman was fighting with igor and only his right hand facing east (armenians of the eastern anatolia) could have hit him, other than that none of his body parts including his hand which faces the west (western armenians) never hit osman,(and yes this was true, he sure did hit him with only his righr hand) and agop asks all teachers, why osman kicked all of his body? the other parts of his body did not do anything to osman, only some fingers on his right hand hit him, and he has the right to do that because, osman took his desk some time ago?

 

Now whats that some armenians sided with russia thing?

whats that?

Is this how a real nation fights? What were the armenians doing on the western anatolia? were they watching their brothers on the east fighting with ottomans? what were the other half of armenians in ottoman empire doing? half of you guys fight and the others sit at home? have u ever seen a nation fighting against enemy like that?

No i believe that Armenians are a brave nation and half of them will never sit and watch their brothers slaughtered by Ottomans. Because this can not be the nation you are proud of.

If there were even 10 armenians sided with russians against ottomans, that means armenians and ottomans are in a war?

 

Have u ever seen somebody fighting with one hand? and other guy is not hitting him with both hands, cause his enemy is fighting with only one hand? and some of his body is staying steady?

 

If it was like that! Shame on those guys, who were not fighting against ottomans while others were shooting at turks.

 

And what were you expecting the ottoman soldiers to do? ask every body one by one if they support the guys rebelled against ottoman empire on the east? well thats not the way people fight! a nation is something like a human being it acts and thinks in only one way, if some guys are attacking ottomans, and the others are sitting at home just because there is no war in their zone,

then we dont talk about a nation, we talk about some people that only share the religion and -ian last names. There can never be something like "some guys were fighting but the others were not, so why did you kill the ones that were not fighting"

 

If somepart of a nation goes in to a war that means with your babies and with your women and with everything u have... u r in this war, cause its your people dieing and killing for your land, how can somebody claim that women and kids cannot be in a war. What are women and kids without their fathers and without their free land, well i prefer that my wife and kids die with me if i will get killed by the enemy... This is not a Hollywood movie,

 

- Hey let the girl go, its between you and me, she has nothing to do with this.

 

This is an independence war, and everybody has to sacrifice during such a holy war.

 

Now lets go back to the class again,

 

Agop can build muscles, take karate classes develop his fighting skills, and finally one day he can take his revenge from osman, he can kick his ass terribly, he can hit him on the head and make him paralyze, he doesnt need to cry to madame francois and mr george white the principal, crying to the teacher and to the principal, and trying to make osman confess that he is a wild guy and he beat him up sometime ago will not make him a strong guy. osman will always be the guy with muscleous arms and legs, agop has to solve his problem, no iranian guys no allies no kurdish guys in the class can help him because he was the one who suffered the bruises and scars.

 

The problem is, whatever that happened between Armenians and Turks was, is and will be between Armenians and Turks, Armenians shouls stop asking things from different nations and people, you guys even ask confessions and recognition and those kind of stuff from your enemy, why? why dont you go and get it instead of asking? Ask this from that country, ask that from this, ask embargo against Turkey from this nation, send fax to this congressman, send letter to that newspaper, find allies, make agreements with those and that against Turks.

 

If one day everybody recognizes the genocide, then sue Turkey, and get land back and if not, ask france to do this, send letter to your congressman and maybe one day those guys u send faxes and letters, will ask turks to leave eastern anatolia, and then armenia becomes a big country, and so and so on.... endless symphony, be realistic, why are you asking your enemy something? why do you want them to admit that they killed those people? They always say that there has been a war between armenians and turks in WW1

have they ever denied a war between you and us?

 

I think asking something from your enemy is a weakness evidence, i will give two examples, greece wanted to launch S-10 missiles in cyprus, turkey said if they ever launch missiles to the greek part of cyprus they will declare war against greece? see the difference, ASK and THREAT, you ask them if they say no u start a war (by the way missiles never arrived to greece after that declaration), so simple, same thing with Abdullah Ocalan, a few turkish generals went to syria border and said, if that rebel leader doesnt leave that country in a few days, we will declare war against syria, now abdullah ocalan is in Turkey, spending his days reading books in his 5*8 cell. ASK and then THREAT, its so easy. Some guy told that Armenia has nukes and stuff, now the solution is easy again, ask turkey to recognize the genocide otherwise you'll declare a war, they probably sit and think about it, i believe they will take the second option, but maybe it will work, and turkey will recognize the genocide and give your land back to you. Who knows?

 

Asking recognitions and hoping that one day those powerful countries will give your land back to you reminds me one idiom we use in Turkey, " having *exual relation with a woman with some other guys' genital organ"

 

Armenians can establish a large powerful country with a huge population, and with latest tech weapons, and get everything back they want, thats not something difficult, look how many years it took to establish america, ottoman empire or roman empire?

As i always say, as long as you attack to my country by yourself with your human power and get your land back, i am ready to respect that holy war of yours, and i can assure you that Turkey will never ask anybody's help to fight against you, because this is all between us. Its none of congressmen's or senate's or a newspaper's business.

 

But the thing is, i dont think that Armenians are doing their best to have a powerful Armenia, Now you can go to a chat room where Turks living in Germany chat and ask them how many houses they have in Turkey and how much money they have in Turkish Banks and how many times they go to Turkey in a year, and if they will ever go back, or how many people in their family went back to Turkey for good.

 

Also ask if the guys served in Turkish Army, and then come back to this forum and ask people the same questions. I know a lot of Armenians who have never been to Armenia in past 10 years, and you also know that better than me, they dont even have a hundred dollars in armenian banks, no properties in Armenia, every thing is in the states, armenia is like a forgotten land for them.

 

Words are always good to tell, speechs are always nice to make, but when it comes to sacrificing, everything changes suddenly, instead of sending faxes to here and there, in every 24th april, give birth to a baby, send some money to an armenian bank, buy a house in armenia, so the construction business will boom and will recruit thousands of people and a few years later you will need cement factories and iron producers and those kind of things.

 

3 million Turks in Europe keep their money in countless Turkish banks, they all have houses in Turkey. My uncle is married to a german woman and he lives 3 months in Turkey every year, spending german marks in Turkish businesses, same thing with me, and with most of the Turks outside the country.

 

Sending faxes and letters to different nations will not solve your problem with Turkish Government, at the end, Armenians and Turks are the ones that will solve this problem.

 

Whatever that had happened 85 years ago is only your problem, dont ask this and that from foreigners, they wont help you. Solve your own problem by yourself.

[Guest]

Hi,

Don't worry,Armenians are solving their problems by themselves.

The exact time of the recognition by France makes me some confused but they can't shut their ears anymore to the voices of grandsons of Armenian victims.

Turkish people may save their money in Turkish Banks,that is true...so what??You and me know the reason,it's because they get 2 times interest on their money.Are they building factories with that money or do they donate it for the republic?NO.

Please stop fooling yourself that Turkey is a rich country but Armenia is poor.Both of them have nearly the same GDP per head per year.

[Guest]

A simple and yet a 'non-Genocide' question to our Turkish guests!

 

Are you satisfied with the quality of Democracy, Human Rights , Human dignity/respect, that YOU as Turkish citizens are getting from the Turkish state? Now or Ever in the entire span of your History?

 

Do you believe that your powerful "State Council" has ever thought or considered to defend the basic rights of the Turkish people?

 

Why am I asking these irrelevant questions?

 

Well, if this "oligarchy" never cared and nourished your basic rights, do you think they ever gave a s**t about the minorities?

 

Please be realistic to yourselves and unless you are a member of the "Grey Wolves" be honest and try to think further away from your narrow range of fake patriotism.

 

What did this Patrida ( greek for homecountry) ever give you ? What could you ever be proud of ?

 

What is the single 'gift' or contribution of the Ottoman Empire to the whole world? ( and don't tell me Kabab or Belly-dance!!!!)

 

Don't you ever feel apologetic towards any people or nation that once upon a time had the misfortune to be the sujects of the dreadful empire you claim to be proud of?

 

Name me one single nation that got anything valuable from the coexistance with the Turkish people?

 

You, as young and educated class, should fight for the future of your country and try to build a pwerful state , which will be an example to the rest of the world and you will be full of pride about it!

 

Although its not easy for me to accept, I believe that I should want a civilised and wealthy Turkey, because I know that through its fortune and wellbeing , it should distribute its justice and care for its weaker and smaller neighbours!

 

A wiseman once said " a fire in your neighbour's house will spread into your own house if you think that it is not your concern " !!! I hope you get my message.....

[Guest]

OEG,

 

Wait! I have to also get drunk, so that to be able to give you my story of Christatos, Abas, Asad, Themure, Ossman, Hagob, Igor, Otto, Hamilton, Francois, Mamedov, and George White. And since I am not used to drinking this much, it will take several hours, and I'll be brought back when I am on the same altitude of imagination as you are, assuming, of coarse that I don't get intoxicated.

 

 

[This message has been edited by MJ (edited February 09, 2001).]

[Guest]

MJ (michael Jordan),

 

It is very obvious that you have been brainwashed since you were a little kid about the so called genocide through the use of propaganda, lies and fabrications by your government. I can sit here and post a whole lot of documents that state that no genocide ever took place. However, it is useless. You are one of these Armenians who i have encountered before, who would question the validity of the documents, articles i have posted on another site. So i don't want to waste my precious time. It is so ironic, however, that the articles and documents posted by you people are always the truth and facts and you compel us to believe it. Since you people will not accept our arguments by using some historical evidence that has been gathered by historians, first hand reviews, then you people need to open your eyes and see the whole picture. You all know thousands of turks were brutally massacred and not even one of you, as a duty to humanness admit this. It is all about your so called genocide. It is pathetic, really pathetic. Your souls and minds are filled with hatred, anger and there is no immunity to this disease.

I really don't see why I carry on conversation with people like yourselves, who does not have any remorse and humanness in them. I mean think about it....

[Guest]

Hi Raven,

Who is brainwashed????According to the Turkish educational system it's told that many nations' roots are Turk including most of the European countries(when i told' we were taught that Finnish people are basically Turks' a Finnish friend of mine,she couldn't stop laughing for hours).

By the way they teach that Kurdish people are also Turks(mountain Turks) and the name came from the noise as they walked on snow(kart-kurd).

Hýstorians are needed for those who has no opinion on this subject and to prove them have happened before.So we don't need no historians as we learned the truth from our parents.

Dog of MHP,please waste a few minutes of your valuable time and write a few books' name to enlighten us or if you'd like to go back to Mongolia we 'll be happy to help you.

[Guest]

Truth from ancestors right? Well i have heard so many tragic stories about how Turks were annihilated. Will you believe me, probably not. So what is the point of discussing it. Like i have said, it is always what your ancestors, your government, your articles have said that are facts and truth and not ours....get the point....

[Guest]

We've massacred and now you're 70 millions huh?I think you're doing ''''it''''' as rats....or night and day as chimps...