Russian double standards

[Z'areh]

With Kosovo's declaration Russia now says it could recognize Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent states. Fair enough, but I thought it was strange that in the list of potential states Nagorno-Artsax was not included in Russia's intentions. The following article sheds some light on the issue and Russia's possible hidden agenda.

 

 

 

 

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Kosovo Should Serve as a Wake-Up Call

 

The Moscow Times, Russia

Feb 19 2008

 

Kosovo's declaration of independence has cracked open the lid on

Pandora's box. Recognition of the enclave's independence by the

European Union and the United States would rip the lid right off.

 

Russian policymakers have hinted that their rhetoric vis-a-vis Georgia's

separatist republics of South Ossetia and Abkhazia as well as Moldova's

Transdnestr might change in the wake of Kosovo's independence, They

have, however, kept mum on Nagorno-Artsax, the Armenian majority

enclave claimed by Azerbaijan.

 

Such an ambiguity -- coupled with Russian efforts to court Azerbaijan

by offering to sell weapons at a discount, among other things --

could be interpreted as a double standard -- the very thing that

President Vladimir Putin angrily accused the West of doing when he

commented on Kosovo's independence last week.

 

The ambiguity in the Kremlin's approach toward frozen conflicts in

its neighborhood demonstrates vividly that its real interest is to

anchor former parts of the Soviet Union to Moscow, not to support

the self-determination of self-declared republics or the territorial

integrity of its neighbors.

 

Self-proclaimed republics should realize that the Kremlin's concern

about their cause would vanish instantly if their parent states agreed

to be anchored to Russia. The republics should consider beginning

negotiations in earnest with their parent states or at the very least

distancing themselves from Russia before that happens.

 

 

http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg221337.html

 

 

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By the way, automatic transliteration of K,arabak,h to Artsax is lame in my opinion and doesn't always work. It is infringement and unrequested editing.

 

 

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[Ashot]

You are right, we should also include Nagorno K,arabakh in the list of edit, so instead of Nagorno K,arabakh, Nagorno-K,arabakh it would rewrite to Artsax

[elle]

I wondered about this as well. Why is Russia only mentioning Abkhazia and S. Ossetia?

What happened to Armenia being the only ally in the Trans-Caucasus and being the best partner of Russia politically and economically according to Kremlin? So how about showing that partnership and the alliance by mentioning Artsax? Or is the Artsax case a 'special' case according to the whole world, except the Armenians of course?

 

I have a feeling that Artsax will definitely follow Abkhazia and Ossetia when Georgia breaks up, but the Russians aren't mentioning anything about this because Russia has much better and stable (more or less) relations with Azerbaijan, so it does not want to create a political instability between both countries. I'm trying to say that Russia is only sounding aggressive towards the Georgians when it comes to secessions because of their strained relationship, so the Russians are trying to punish the Georgians. Azerbaijan is different in this case because since Russia has no serious problem with Azerbaijan (even if they're not really allies) it can not simply have the same rhetoric for the Azeris too.

Even Serj stated that Kosovo will help the Artsax case. I’m pretty sure that all this has been decided even before the independence of Kosovo. I simply can’t see Russia breaking up Georgia, but leaving its ally, Armenia, hanging like that. If nothing was decided already, why would Serj state that Artsax will have the same fate as Kosovo did? After all, Russians want every centimeter of territory that they can have under their control in the Caucasus. It's a great opportunity for them to take over both separatist Georgian regions. By taking over I'm only referring to having sphere of influence. Same goes for Artsax.

 

I can’t see it as Russian double standard for not including Artsax in the list of Georgian separatist territories. It is on the list, except that it’s not talked about in the open. Even if a war breaks up, Russia will help Armenia defend the territories, if not push them further into Azerbaijan. Russian strong position on Georgia’s separatist regions is a way of getting revenge from Georgians…to further destabilize the country. Artsax’s case is a little different. Russia will not be directly involved in its independence, but it will help out (and recognize it) under the table so to speak.

Edited February 20, 2008 by elle

[RussianArmenian]

It is on the list, except that it’s not talked about in the open.

I agree with it. But Russia does not wish to spoil his attitudes with Azerbaijan.

[Z'areh]

I agree with it. But Russia does not wish to spoil his attitudes with Azerbaijan.

 

 

Not only that, Russia has been in the past and always will be in the future a very dangerous ally to Armenia.

 

Let us not kid ourselves in thinking that Russia by keeping quiet about the Armenians' most important survival issue is helping us in a major way. All they are interested is how to bring Azerbaijan under Kremlin's influence, if selling them arms (as the Russian commentator highlights) will spread such influence what does it say about Kremlin's attitude about Armenians' security?

 

I think Russia can easily turn the tables against us if Kremlin smells a serious Azeri rapprochement. And oil, at $100 a barrel, is a major lubricant in this slippery relations between Armenia and Russia.

 

read the full article in Moscow Times

 

http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg221345.html

 

[elle]

Turn the tables agains us? Just like that? Knowing that they will loose Armenia and thepart of teh Caucasus just like they lost Russia? I dont' think so. You should think about it in a more pragmatic way. West is already deep rooted in Azerbaijan since the independence and Azeris will care more about the west in their territory than Russia. You mentioned the Caspian, so what about it? I've read many times that there's not too much oil left there, Russians have enpugh oil of their own...meaning that the Azeri oil won't make them change the entire politics in the region. Also, Azeris will not wake up one day and say that it's ok they don't want any NATO or Wesnern companies on their territories. They're looking towards Turkey, which is looking towards the West.

 

Russia is not a dangerous ally of Armenians like you put it. Even if Russia softens its stance on Azerbaijan and Azerbaijan admits Russia by embrace, Russia does not have to turn its back on Armenia. Those two actions are completely different from one another. So are you saying that if Georgia suddenly softens its rhetoric on Russia, and Russia in turn does the same, then Russia will forget about its alliance with Armenia? Again, one has nothing to do with the other. I'm rpetty sure that Russia understands that this time it will loose Armenia, just like it lost Georgia. In politics there's no law that states that the great powers must only side with one. If Serj uttered the words "Kosovo independence -> Artsax independence" I have a feeling that he's not just talking out of his you know where.

[elle]

Sorry for the grammar errors, but I'm running late. Will try to fix them later on.

[AVO]

Let me introduce you to Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO), Russia's version of NATO. Armenia is a member of CSTO and has said that it has no intentions of joining the NATO. Georgia and Azerbaijan were both members in CSTO, but both withdrew the membership in 1999 and said that they're looking towards joining the NATO. So with the 2nd Cold War starting Armenia is caught between NATO and CSTO (Russia). There have been rumors that Iran also wants to join the CSTO.

 

According to the treaty when one member is attacked others provide assistance.

The Article 4 "In case an act of aggression is committed against any of the member-states, all other member-states will render it necessary assistance, including military one, as well as provide support with the means at their disposal through an exercise of the right to collective defense in accordance with Article 51 of the UN Charter".

 

Current members of CSTO are Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Russia, Uzbekistan

 

So you see, if baboons ever attack us, Russia is obligated to provide military assistance to Armenia.

[elle]

Let me introduce you to Collective Security Treaty Organization (CSTO), Russia's version of NATO. Armenia is a member of CSTO and has said that it has no intentions of joining the NATO. Georgia and Azerbaijan were both members in CSTO, but both withdrew the membership in 1999 and said that they're looking towards joining the NATO. So with the 2nd Cold War starting Armenia is caught between NATO and CSTO (Russia). There have been rumors that Iran also wants to join the CSTO.

 

According to the treaty when one member is attacked others provide assistance.

The Article 4 "In case an act of aggression is committed against any of the member-states, all other member-states will render it necessary assistance, including military one, as well as provide support with the means at their disposal through an exercise of the right to collective defense in accordance with Article 51 of the UN Charter".

 

Current members of CSTO are Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Russia, Uzbekistan

 

So you see, if baboons ever attack us, Russia is obligated to provide military assistance to Armenia.

 

 

Thanks AVO. This will be usefull for my term paper which I'm writing about the Caucasus' geopolitics. This is another reason why Z'areh's viewpoint isn't really pragmatic. Armenia and Russia have never been at each others throats to be that way right after Russia sells few arms to Azerbaijan. Another thing I wanted to note is that just because (or if) Russia sells arms to Azerbaijan, it doesn't necessarily mean that it won't do the same for Armenians...even sell us more arms for that matter.

My dad told me few days ago that so what if Azerbaijan is buying $15 million fighter planes from Pakistan or spending a billion on its military? We get the same stuff from Russians half the price anyways, so buying 10-15 fighter jets from Pakistant doesn't mean that they will win the war. After all, Armenia has Russian rockets that can bring those Paki planes down within minutes. Just recently before the election in Armenia, Putin stated that Russian-Armenian alliance/friendship is at its strongest right now. He also stated few other things about it, but I understood from his comments that Russia is very eager to keep the status quo of Armenian-Russian partnership. Let's face it, it's not like Azeris or Georgians will wake up one day stating that they have missed the Russians all this time, and they want Russia back!

 

[Z'areh]

Let's face it, it's not like Azeris or Georgians will wake up one day stating that they have missed the Russians all this time, and they want Russia back!

 

No it's not going to be like that. But my point is if ever a situation is created where Azerbaijan abandons its so-called Westward movement, or Russia finds a way for Azerbaijan to reconsider its orientation that is where Armenia is going tp fall behind in its importance for Russia.

 

You say Russia could loose Armenia in the Caucasus. Unfortunately Russia knows that Armenia will not be lost as long as there is Turkey and issue of the Armenian genocide. Also Russia knows that whatever policies they conduct, Armenia will always be dependent on Kremlin, so what stops Russia to "satisfy" Azeri demands?

 

[gamavor]

Dear Zare’h , Russian’s double standards are not novelty nor is the Western hypocrisy. What both positions have in common is that they rely on moronized masses of voters who would easily buy anything that doesn’t affect their personal wellbeing.

 

The State Department issues statement after statement about how Kosovo case is unique, but they fell to explain what exactly is unique about Kosovo compared to other similar cases. The fact that there are few UN resolutions regarding Kosovo doesn’t preclude violation of the principle of territorial integrity. Before anyone rushes to make comparison with Artsakh and Azerbaidjan, let us remember that the West recognized the Soviet Union as a whole and not the “republics’” territorial integrity per se. The later happened much later after the collapse of the Soviet Union when the ethnic tensions were in full motion. Therefore, from legal point of view Kosovo declaration of independence is a right stipulated by the charter of UN and is legit so long it does not violate the sovereignty of Republic of Serbia. The recognition of such declaration however is a blunt violation of the International Law. Moreover, Serbia’s territorial wholeness is well defined in Dayton agreements which were the founding document for the legal disintegration of former Yugoslavia. By recognizing Kosovo as an independent state, the West indirectly violates their own accords which led to the creation of Bosnia and Herzegovina as independent state. In practice, the recognition of Kosovo is derogation of Dayton agreements which would lead to much more unpleasant consequences.

 

And finally, Palestine, Basques country, Abkhazia, Osetia, and number of other independence movements have much more credibility from legal and historical view than Kosovo.

The World that we are living in is in the hands of handful of mad men!

 

[elle]

Would the independence of Kosovo have any consequences on Kurdistan? I don't see any newspaper articles or any politicans mentioning Kurdistan as well. I don't see how the Kosovo situation can not affect the creation of Kurdistan. I doubt that it will (because of Turkey), but something that crossed my mind.

 

My questions to all of you is how you see the Kosovo independence affecting the Caucasus? What are your thoughts? You can go beyond the Caucasus too, if you want. Who you think will be next?

 

[elle]

Add Palestinian territory to the list as well.

[skhara]

Turn the tables agains us? Just like that? Knowing that they will loose Armenia and thepart of teh Caucasus just like they lost Russia? I dont' think so. You should think about it in a more pragmatic way. West is already deep rooted in Azerbaijan since the independence and Azeris will care more about the west in their territory than Russia. You mentioned the Caspian, so what about it? I've read many times that there's not too much oil left there, Russians have enpugh oil of their own...meaning that the Azeri oil won't make them change the entire politics in the region. Also, Azeris will not wake up one day and say that it's ok they don't want any NATO or Wesnern companies on their territories. They're looking towards Turkey, which is looking towards the West.

 

Russia is not a dangerous ally of Armenians like you put it. Even if Russia softens its stance on Azerbaijan and Azerbaijan admits Russia by embrace, Russia does not have to turn its back on Armenia. Those two actions are completely different from one another. So are you saying that if Georgia suddenly softens its rhetoric on Russia, and Russia in turn does the same, then Russia will forget about its alliance with Armenia? Again, one has nothing to do with the other. I'm rpetty sure that Russia understands that this time it will loose Armenia, just like it lost Georgia. In politics there's no law that states that the great powers must only side with one. If Serj uttered the words "Kosovo independence -> Artsax independence" I have a feeling that he's not just talking out of his you know where.

 

I agree with everything you have written thus far. Bravo. I am also glad that the authorities in Yerevan are putting a hard clamp on the likes of "Z'areh". In practical geopolitics it makes perfect sense that Russia does not mention Artsakh on that list. If Russia succeeds knocking out western ambitions in Georgia and bringing Georgia back into the fold, S Ossetia and Abkhazia will not be on that list either. It does not mean however, that Russia will allow Georgia to re-take control of these break-away regions. Why would they ever give up their pro-Russian bargaining chips over Georgia. Perhaps this recent change in attitude by Sakashvilli towards Moscow is directly related to Moscow's threat of recognition.

 

What's more important to Armenians? A word from Moscow - "Yes we officially recognize" or the transfer of a billion dollars worth of arms that helped the Armenians take full control of Artsakh and outlying areas + the security provided by the Russian Federation against the beasts to the west.

 

[gamavor]

Hereby I Gamavor, officially recognize the Independence of peace loving Dakota Indians! May this declaration serve as a founding document for the restoration of historical justice and creation of the proud nation of Dakota Indians! Haw! I said!

[Z'areh]

Obviously there are some who don't understand the meaning of ostensibly simple words and the power that they carry in international politics, no doubt these are issues way over their heads! We seem to have an abundance of "geopolitic"ians amongst us

 

Wonder why Russia is making a big fuss over the recognition of Kosovo's independence, why not instead just keep quiet, as they are for Artsakh, and simply arm the Serbs? of course in return taking over the entire industrial infrastructure of Serbia.

 

I pity the Serbs for not having in Russia the strong alliance Armenia enjoys. We are so lucky!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[elle]

Obviously there are some who don't understand the meaning of ostensibly simple words and the power that they carry in international politics, no doubt these are issues way over their heads! We seem to have an abundance of "geopolitic"ians amongst us

 

Wonder why Russia is making a big fuss over the recognition of Kosovo's independence, why not instead just keep quiet, as they are for Artsakh, and simply arm the Serbs? of course in return taking over the entire industrial infrastructure of Serbia.

 

I pity the Serbs for not having in Russia the strong alliance Armenia enjoys. We are so lucky!

 

Were you being sarcastic with teh last comment?

 

Russia only pretends that it's agains Kosovo independence. What it really wants is an independent Ossetia and Abkhazia on its border. That way it will further destabilize Georgia.