hosank Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Why can't a useful and tastefully designed facility (be it a hospice, clinic or help center, even a playground with lots of GREEN AND SCULPTURE ) not be valid, comemorating the heroic self defense that Musa Lertsis put against the regular ottoman army????? because the defenders of mussa ler wern't targetted for extermination because they favoured plagrounds and green spaces in the ottoman empire, but rather because they were armenian and christian (among other things) ...and btw..there is alot of green space around it. also, keep in mind that this is a rich suburb developped by a private firm, not the government, so they can do what they want with their money...in a suburb where the inhabitants would already have enough money for a hospital anyways. I think another cross will make no difference whatsoever in creating more adherents to Christianity! the point is not to created more adherents to the religion, but rather to remind people who we are, where we come from, and our future. i think you should recheck the going price for aluminum my friend, and also keep in mind that the developpers of the project didn't sit down and say "ok..we can build a hospital, or we can use the money to build a giant cross...oh what the hell lets build a giant cross", the monument isn't replacing any projects for hospitals or fields or what ever....you should re-read the article reminicent of the soviet era. not sure what part of the soviet union you lived in..but i never saw crosses used to represent soviet might... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirunTgha Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Why can't a useful and tastefully designed facility (be it a hospice, clinic or help center, even a playground with lots of GREEN AND SCULPTURE ) not be valid, comemorating the heroic self defense that Musa Lertsis put against the regular ottoman army????? BTW they failed protecting Musa Ler. It is still in captivity. If all the churches, crosses and (Mayr Ator) in Armenia are not sufficient to raise Christian sentiment in " the country" as you say, I think another cross will make no difference whatsoever in creating more adherents to Christianity! Looking at the planned structure, I venture that it will cost the price of at least twenty kindergardens and football playing fields at $10.000 a pop in the country side. Anyway whatever the cost it will be just an unimaginative and banal presentation of the grandiose monument reminicent of the soviet era. Asdwatz hokit lusavore. Alright lets forget the monument for a moment, we comprehend your concern of its cost. Yes the funds can indeed be invested elsewhere in our society for a more universal good. But If I follow your logic us being a Christian state is the main cause of every slaughter Armenia has ever been victim. I strongly doubt that our religion has brought blood to the gates of our country. We never faught a holy war. I also strongly believe that Christianity produced but the positive and us being so humanistic and affiliated with our own culture and society and that no matter where in the world. You say you are not religious yet you opt for christianity. Have you read anything about other beleifs? How can you quantify the positive impacts of Christianity on our nation? You ask if I know about other`s beleifs, yes, but do you know about your own?????? I am talking about our country`s religion so please, Budhism, Islam and other religions are not part of this topic. Yes I am not a religious man, but again I agree with Ashot and Hosank. I love Christianity and it`s part of my and your, whether you like it or not, culture. Besides our personal tastes it`s a symbol like I said previously, a symbol that unifies Armenia and represents us. It`s by such powerful symbols that we build our image and offer it to the world. I also believe that Christianity is the gates to the western society by which I stand. Everyone has to choose a side, it`s an innevitable choice we ALL have to make. Was I indoctrinated to it? Maybe, and I thank god for that. The money can be invested elsewhere, maybe for a clinic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 What.... another church? I almost forgot, this might create a few jobs like derder, lousarar, ternaban yev masounk norin... lol I know, Etchmiadzin and Sourp Hripsime are a few kilometeres away, will this not be sufficient and serve the pious? When I was in Armenia on several ocasions, these churches were almost always empty, except a few tourists, or when major holidays and wedding/funerals were occuring. Maybe our Asdwatz is taking into his consideration the number of churches to accord Armenians a special spot in anti ashkharh! HELP don't make a joke out of it Nor Aresh - Erebuni HAmayq has no church, it's one of the most populated parts of the city, it has a one of the large cemeterys of Yerevan & a Pantheon - but no church "Though a church is being built in the commune I have an impression that it will never be finished. The construction has been underway for 2 years," the closest church to Nor Aresh is Surb Sarkis, or the new church build in 9rd Masiv - across of Vazgen Sarkisyan Military base i'm in PAsadena CA - just on Washington Blvd we have 5 Armenian churches - each one less then 500' away on Colorado blvd we have St. Grigor and St. Sarkis less then a mile a way - cost of St. Gregory is well over 1 million - value of the property - close if not over 5 million Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVO Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 This has nothing and everything to do with religion. The houses, as well as the Cross are being constructed for a certain group of people. The location is the key here. It's close to Echmiatsin, as well as to the American embassy. Its aim is to sell houses to the religious diaspora. And the Cross, sorry to say, is just for marketing. On the bright side, it will bring wealthy Armenians back to homeland. Which will be good for the economy. Creation of job and spending of their money etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 This has nothing and everything to do with religion. The houses, as well as the Cross are being constructed for a certain group of people. The location is the key here. It's close to Echmiatsin, as well as to the American embassy. Its aim is to sell houses to the religious diaspora. And the Cross, sorry to say, is just for marketing. On the bright side, it will bring wealthy Armenians back to homeland. Which will be good for the economy. Creation of job and spending of their money etc. yes is just for marketing Avo jan do you see how the map is shrank-ed also US EMB. is not that close to Musa Ler Monument Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 boy when was the last time you were in Armenia - I suggest you visit there. Tsavoq srti shat hnadaryanes mtatsum... Far from complaining about the project which is great , I am pointing out an alternative to a cross monument that's all. I have a place in "henatarian" Shushi and was in Armenia in Dec. 07. You? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 because the defenders of mussa ler wern't targetted for extermination because they favoured plagrounds and green spaces in the ottoman empire, but rather because they were armenian and christian .... the point is not to created more adherents to the religion, but rather to remind people who we are, where we come from, and our future. not sure what part of the soviet union you lived in..but i never saw crosses used to represent soviet might... Armenians were targeted for being Armenian not Christian... Ottomans had 600 years to get rid of Christians but .... Majority of Genocide survivors found refuge in Islamic countries. Iraq, Jordan, Syria, Egypt etc.... where they were given full citizenship and allowed to rebuild their culture and churches...whilst the Christian west just took in fragments, those that can afford to pay! Do we need to remind people who we are? Are we scared of being neglected? By whom????? I was lucky to have been spared living as "akhbar" under the soviets by fate!..... As for the monumental design it reminds soviet era structure..... even I know that soviets were anti religion lollllllllllllllllll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 ....I strongly doubt that our religion has brought blood to the gates of our country. We never faught a holy war. You ask if I know about other`s beleifs, yes, but do you know about your own?????? I said previously, a symbol that unifies Armenia and represents us. ..... I also believe that Christianity is the gates to the western society by which I stand. Everyone has to choose a side, ..... The money can be invested elsewhere, maybe for a clinic? We just celebrated "Sourp Vartanantz baderazm" He was in a holy war ..... We have been pretending He won a moral war! Plse read my post in Ancient Armenian city- Ani re my religion. You tend to see the world as black and white, yet wisdom dictates IT'S GRAY. Opposing views held in a fanatical fashion, always will result in mortal conflicts..... This is a historical fact! Do you agree? Let them invest the money in sports complex..... Healthy mind in Healthy body and it pays for itself ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirunTgha Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 We just celebrated "Sourp Vartanantz baderazm" He was in a holy war ..... We have been pretending He won a moral war! Plse read my post in Ancient Armenian city- Ani re my religion. You tend to see the world as black and white, yet wisdom dictates IT'S GRAY. Opposing views held in a fanatical fashion, always will result in mortal conflicts..... This is a historical fact! Do you agree? Let them invest the money in sports complex..... Healthy mind in Healthy body and it pays for itself ! What are you talking about?? We got your point of view, you wish to invest the money into something else, we understand that. Black and white? I'm saying that Christianity is innevitably part of our culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 don't make a joke out of it i'm in PAsadena CA - just on Washington Blvd we have 5 Armenian churches - each one less then 500' away on Colorado blvd we have St. Grigor and St. Sarkis less then a mile a way - cost of St. Gregory is well over 1 million - value of the property - close if not over 5 million My sarcasm is no joke!!!!!!It's lamentation about mixing buisness with beleif symbols to make a buck..... You make my point about the number of churches around where you live! I've been there. Have you noticed how seperate they are, that one congregation will not attend the "other church"? You seem to be impressed by the $ value of the church. Did you know we also had very expensive churches built in India when Armenians were whealty merchants there? Where are they now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 And the Cross, sorry to say, is just for marketing. On the bright side, it will bring wealthy Armenians back to homeland. Which will be good for the economy. Creation of job and spending of their money etc. You said it! It's always been a marketing tool! Just like so many other religious symbols have been all over the world. Armenia will attract wealth when law and order treat all the people as equals in front of the LAW! Maybe I am a dreamer, I also hope that Armenians and Armenia become a tolerent nation of each other never mind "odars". That Arstaxtszis, Beyroutzis, Kesabtsis or any other "TZIS" are accepted as equal Armenians in Hayasdan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted February 7, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Garmag what are you talking about? what do you mean where are they now? they are in the same place... on the Armenian street, it would be better if we end this conversation - because we are not going anywhere with this... yes Armenians are separated but they are united!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Have you noticed how seperate they are, that one congregation will not attend the "other church"? nop i go to anyone - for me it's the parking if i can park my car and not walk i will go to Church of Brotherhood or To St Ritha You seem to be impressed by the $ value of the church. Did you know we also had very expensive churches built in India when Armenians were whealty merchants there? Where are they now? just like in many other places of the world that we Armenian have been living at one time back in times of CCCP people was talking about how India owes money to Armenia - money that wealthy Armenian left for free and independent Armenia only then the money will be gave en to Armenians, it was something like 900 billion, and each time we would see a Indian move or gifts that was sold allover in Armenia, elders would remember and say ya this is the compensation for our money but again people talks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 Black and white? I'm saying that Christianity is innevitably part of our culture. Should we forget all our pre 301 Christian history as being part of our culture ? That's what Christians tried to do when they destroyed all that pre dated 301. All our legends, Haig Nahabed, Ara Keghetsig, Medzn Dikran et-al were non Christians, yet we hero worship them. They are part and parcel of our culture today. Why doesn't the church celebrate Haigs' war against Pel? Or the wars of Mezn Dikran as they do Sourp Vartans' Avarayr? I guess you must have thought of them as heroes to be proud of and boasted about them on occasion? I am trying to say not all is as clear as black and white..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 ... yes Armenians are separated but they are united!!! I wish we were UNITED..... we would have been blogging sitting in our ancestral lands! INSTEAD OF INTERNETTING FROM ALL CORNERS OF THE WORLD AS THIS FORUM PROOVES...... LOLOLOLOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVO Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 (edited) Ashot jan, we are very much divided, geographically, religiously, politically and ideologicaly. We have no common denominator, we divide ourselves into hyastantsi vs beyrutsi, ejmiatsin vs kilikia vs amerika, dashnak vs hnchak, democrat vs communist. Yes we come together once a year, fly our flags high and scream "Shame on Turkey" then go back to our different lives. It's changing for good though and very young independent Republic of Armenia has a lot to do with it. Emphasis on young, it needs time to adjust to its new found freedom and cleanse itself from the soviet ways. Edited February 8, 2008 by AVO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashot Posted February 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 Avo jan, I basically said the same thing with very simple words - We are separated but we are United! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted February 8, 2008 Report Share Posted February 8, 2008 ... It's changing for good though and very young independent Republic of Armenia has a lot to do with it. Emphasis on young, it needs time to adjust to its new found freedom and cleanse itself from the soviet ways. Hoping for those days to materialise............... Amen to that ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosank Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 Armenians were targeted for being Armenian not Christian... Ottomans had 600 years to get rid of Christians but .... this comment was rooted in a touch of trajic ethnocentrism, which i attribute to many armenians. first off, the ottomans were not planning to eliminate armenians specifically, but christians in anatolia as a whole, (but we being the largest group by far were the centre of their intention)...if you had cared to learn about other minorities who suffered the same trajedies alongside the armenians, you would see that 500 000 pontic greeks, 400 000 assyrans and almost a million greeks on the agean (though they were killed or displaced later) died in the genocide. all of which were christian, while muslim minorities were not murdered.. my point is to make you understand that christianity and the armenian identity are intermingled. there is not one without the other. and the only 'muslim country' where the armenians were allowed to thrive with little pain was christian lebanon. the armenians of syria were subjected to many porgroms for years after the genocide (my grandfather would talk about them), before they were finally accepted into syria (mostly because of syrian christians).. We just celebrated "Sourp Vartanantz baderazm" He was in a holy war ..... We have been pretending He won a moral war! see, this relates once more to when i told you that christianity is an undeniable part of our identity. we did not fight for christianity, but we fought because this christianity defined us as a nation, as well as the georgians and udis who fought along side us against an enemy who's pagan religion was one more factor deferenciating their culture from ours. Did you know we also had very expensive churches built in India when Armenians were whealty merchants there? Where are they now? armenians may come and go about the world, but in armenia they will always stay, so monetary value of our churches IN ARMENIA are not relevant. Should we forget all our pre 301 Christian history as being part of our culture ? of course not, infact, in armenia, just as the church all over europe actually incorporated much of the pre christian culture of their respective nations into their religion, thus ensuring the continuity of our race. All our legends, Haig Nahabed, Ara Keghetsig, Medzn Dikran et-al were non Christians, yet we hero worship them. first off some of these are mythical, second, as i said, we are christians, but we do not deny our past. anyways, to be honest christianity is the only religion we might say is truly ours. before being christian we practiced persian zoroastrianism, then greek and roman paganism, none of which were armenian, but though christianity is from israel, we were the first nation in the world to be christian, and revolved our faith around our culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garmag Posted February 11, 2008 Report Share Posted February 11, 2008 .....christianity and the armenian identity are intermingled. there is not one without the other. and the only 'muslim country' where the armenians were allowed to thrive with little pain was christian lebanon..... the armenians of syria were subjected to many porgroms for years after the genocide..... It seems to me, Ottoman/ Young Turks/ Kemalists do not diffrentiate religion to cleans Turkey from all that is not Turkish! Can you explain why today, Muslim Kurds are subjected to the same treatment of cleansing, as were other ethnics in the past? My memory of Syria pre 1952 was never anti Armenian! In 1915 Lebanon was (Grand Syrie et Liban). Read "Dzarugians" Yerazayin Halebe. In fact many Armenians found refuge back in Syria during the Lebanese civil war 1975-1990. Unfortunatly your apparent fanaticism is not different from other fanatics that blow themselves up for dogma..... Religious wars have been waged for centuries and still prevail as ever! The globe is polarizing in the name of the ONE AND ONLY OR MANY take your pick..... Vay mez. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hosank Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 that point was about the genocide, not post 1975. arab and kurdish minorities in turkey were not persecuted during the genocide. when i find pics of the syrian pogroms i will show them to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armenak Posted February 12, 2008 Report Share Posted February 12, 2008 arab and kurdish minorities in turkey were not persecuted during the genocide. I wouldn't be so sure (especially about the Arabs). when i find pics of the syrian pogroms i will show them to you I doubt this ever occurred, so photographic evidence would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpa Posted September 12, 2010 Report Share Posted September 12, 2010 (edited) This week is dedicated to the 95th anniversary of the Heroic Battle of Musa Ler. http://musaler.am/ Herisa http://musaler.am/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Vagfi-harisan.jpg Hey Mos, is your sister in one of those pictures? Do you see your grandfathers house in Waqf? http://musaler.am/2010/08/13/musaler95/ PS. I am so grateful to the writer of the above for sayin Musa Ler, not Musa **** whatever. http://www.armenians.com/Gallery/musaler/musaler.JPGCurch;http://musaler.am/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Vagfi-ekeghetsin.jpgAnd this "church" in Bitias?http://musaler.am/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Bitiasi-mzkiti-veratsvats-Boghoqakanneri-ekeghetsin.jpgWhat is the meaning of Waqf? What was that village called before? Movsisavan? :ap:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waqf This article is about the religious endowment. For the Armenian village, see Vakıflı. A waqf (Arabic: وقف, pronounced [ˈwæqf]; plural Arabic: أوقاف, awqāf; Turkish: vakıf) is an inalienable religious endowment in Islamic law, typically denoting a building or plot of land for Muslim religious or charitable purposesIn addition to the above, Waqf- plural Awqaf is the Arabic Islamic benevolent society, perhaps the world’s richest . Beside the fact that they own and operate the most profitable real estates, they are also a most charitable organization, building and operating hospitals, orphanages, old peoples homes and homes for the handicapped. I do admire them as I have seen some of their humanitarian activities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vak%C4%B1fl%C4%B1 Edited September 12, 2010 by Arpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MosJan Posted September 12, 2010 Report Share Posted September 12, 2010 our house / house of my grate grandparents has been leveled to ground... My parents and my sister have been at Musaler Waqef many times and took part in the celebrations, mass & Matagh. at this moment my parents are in Yerevan Armenia, at MusLer PS. tools used by my Grandfather are displayed at the Musaler Memorial in Armenia.. ok time for me to go - September 11 - 95th Anniversary of the Battle of Musa Ler (the Armenian genocide battle) takes place from 6 p.m. to midnight at Camp Arev in Cuddy Valley. Free admission with live traditional music, dancing with Armenian food and drinks available to purchase. Continues Sunday. 1701 Darling Ave, www.mousaler.org, 626-376-7420 Sunday, September 12 95th Anniversary of the Battle of Musa Ler (the Armenian genocide battle) takes place from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m. at Camp Arev in Cuddy Valley. Free admission with live traditional music, dancing with Armenian food and drinks available to purchase. 1701 Darling Ave, www.mousaler.org, 626-376-7420PS:PS one of the organizers is an member of our forum . can't name him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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