Ecumenical Hypocrisy In The Armenian Apostolic Church

[onnig]

It is a sad state of affairs when a church that boasts that it has prominently kept the faith of the Apostles, falls into the worldly realm of ecumenicalism and universalism.

 

The Armenian Orthodox Church has done just so, by negating the exclusivity of the Lord Jesus Christ and applying salvation to non-Christians. This is not just a member of the Church saying this but the very Patriarch of the Armenian Apostolic Church, Mesrop B. The following was originally posted in Armenian at lraper.org ( http://www.lraper.org/main.aspx?Action=Dis...76&Lang=HAY ) and has been translated below into English by Arayik Khachikyan.

 

If there is any doubt to the ecumenical conclusiveness of this letter by Patriach Mesrop B deeming a Muslim as a "brother in the Lord" then the reader must examine his own understanding as to the true nature of Christ's unique and singular role in the redemption of man.

 

John 14:6-7 "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

 

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

 

Translation below:

 

His Holiness Patriarch Mesrop Congratulates Ramadan

 

At the beginning of the Islamic Ramadan, His Holiness Father Mesrop Patriarch sent a letter to the overseer of Islamic Religious Affairs, Prof. Dr. Ali Partacoglu and Grand Mufti of Istambul Prof. Dr. Mustafa Chagxchn, congratulating them for the Muslim Ramadan.

 

His Most Magnificent(e.i., Mesrop) in his letter wrote,

 

Most Respected Brother in the Lord,

 

By this letter, I want to express my deepest wishes to you with regard to the start of the Holy Muslim Ramadan.

 

I specially pray that in our common monotheistic spiritual fasting festivals, the prayers, and the listening to the Word of God, as it is for Turkish and all Islamic World, that these things will be productive and fruitful from the viewpoint of our civilizations’ mutual understanding, peace, and prosperity.

 

Let the most High God grant our country and our compatriots mercy, and salvation, and happiness, and that He will help and support all the nations of the world(and our relationship with each other) by His Holy Spirit, to establish peace and friendship.

 

By love, peace, and respect

 

Mesrop B., Patriarch of all Armenians

 

Political pressure should never allow for doctrinal compromise. The truth should be spoken boldly and let the work of God's Word penetrate the hearts of men. In this case it seems that the Patriach truly believes this heresy.

 

In addition, Christ's atoning sacrifice is not applied through ignorance even if a man is "sincerely" searching for God in his own religion. This is universalism to the core. Mother Teresa thought this way; Billy Graham thinks this way and now we see that the representative of all Armenians, Mesrop B. is thinking this way.

 

Do not be misled. Embracing Christ as the only Lord and Savior is the sole means of salvation. Woe to them who preach another way!

 

Onnig Sayadian

Sola Fide in Solus Christus

Edited November 1, 2007 by onnig

[Dynaman]

Agreed Onnig:

 

However knowing this, what do plan to do about it? Are you a Lucavorgagan or Poggachan. That to would help me understand your perspective. I think leaving the Church without trying to help would be a mistake. There are many issues waiting to be resolved.

 

Aram

[annannimusss]

This is the opinion of the Turkish Slave Mutafyan. He has to say these things.

[Dynaman]

You know this for a fact? or just what you think?

 

Aram

[onnig]

Agreed Onnig:

 

However knowing this, what do plan to do about it? Are you a Lucavorgagan or Poggachan. That to would help me understand your perspective. I think leaving the Church without trying to help would be a mistake. There are many issues waiting to be resolved.

 

Aram

Hi Aram,

 

I reluctantly left the church years ago but looking back now it was the best thing I ever did in my life, well second best, because the Armenian Church is not a church of biblical Christianity but rather has been tainted by a man-centered gospel rather than a Christ-centered one.

 

This may seem like a very harsh statement but if you test the doctrines of the Armenian Church against the Word of God you will find many, many errors not on a simple level of concession but rather on heretical grounds. The article I posted is but a symptom of the nature of the problem which is the abandonment of the Word of God as the sole rule of faith and authority for the Church.

 

The Armenian Church will definitely NOT change its doctrines. Their house was built upon sand, meaning they have built upon man and man’s supposed authority and not on the authority of the clear Word of God. They have a low view of God because they have a high view of man.

 

So when I left the church and worshiped God in Spirit and in Truth which can only be done when it is guided by God’s Word alone then worship became what it should be, a true worship of the living God of the Universe free from any creature elevation and idols. I saw what the true meaning of worship, to exult God and give Him all the glory in everything, even in my own salvation which I have nothing to boast about since it is all His work.

 

If you haven’t already guessed, I am protestant (poghokagan) and more specifically Reformed Protestant. By the way, great sig!

 

p.s. I don’t know this Mutafyan person. I am not politically motivated as sadly most Armenians are.

 

[Dynaman]

Okie-Doke.. Fair enough...You are not the first nor will you be the last to leave. And yes the brotherhood is very tight knit on retaining their historical philosophy. It does appear the Apostolics pull the "H" card when ever new ideas are expressed, plus there seems to be a group of Church Board members who are threatened by new ideas fearing everyone will leave the church -- so "status quo" it is. I am sure you know all of this. I believe Board members who also help guide the Church think this way because of a distant relationship between themselves and God. After all, sadly to say, Bible study is discouraged in the Armenian Church.

 

Having said all of this Onning, certainly you would agree, the Protestant Church has it's own problems as well. There are so many varieties of them. Why??? Well.. once again theology arguments and interpretations. It's often not clear cut to get to the truth. I once thought to myself, even if the Bible were written blatanly as in the ten commandments, there would be some dodo asking the definition of what "is" or "not" truly means.

 

I would encourage you not to be upset. It is an uphill battle, just as it was when Jesus was physically around. Jesus was essentially a heretic to Jews, and frankly still remains that way today.

 

If you are strong enough in your Godly walk. I would suggest going back maybe once a month and see how God may use you. You may have already tried and failed in the past, but leaving just lets the devil win, and we can't have that.

 

Armenian Protestant Church? What denomination?

 

Hay! it's a great day to be alive!

 

Aram

 

[onnig]

Okie-Doke.. Fair enough...You are not the first nor will you be the last to leave. And yes the brotherhood is very tight knit on retaining their historical philosophy. It does appear the Apostolics pull the "H" card when ever new ideas are expressed, plus there seems to be a group of Church Board members who are threatened by new ideas fearing everyone will leave the church -- so "status quo" it is. I am sure you know all of this. I believe Board members who also help guide the Church think this way because of a distant relationship between themselves and God. After all, sadly to say, Bible study is discouraged in the Armenian Church.

 

Having said all of this Onning, certainly you would agree, the Protestant Church has it's own problems as well. There are so many varieties of them. Why??? Well.. once again theology arguments and interpretations. It's often not clear cut to get to the truth. I once thought to myself, even if the Bible were written blatanly as in the ten commandments, there would be some dodo asking the definition of what "is" or "not" truly means.

 

I would encourage you not to be upset. It is an uphill battle, just as it was when Jesus was physically around. Jesus was essentially a heretic to Jews, and frankly still remains that way today.

 

If you are strong enough in your Godly walk. I would suggest going back maybe once a month and see how God may use you. You may have already tried and failed in the past, but leaving just lets the devil win, and we can't have that.

 

Armenian Protestant Church? What denomination?

 

Hay! it's a great day to be alive!

 

Aram

 

Arman jan, there is no "climb". There is nothing one can do to get these people to start being consistent with the Word of God. Even if you point out the heresies with the proper resources, properly articulated, properly documented and they will still not care. Like the Pharisees they will not relinquish their man-made authority and submit to the Word of God. They , "neglecting the commandment of God...hold to the traditions of men." Mark 7:8.

 

Yes, the many protestant churches are equally guilty of these things but there is a misconceptioin here. Do not take everything under the banner of "protestant" as protestant. The Protestant Reformers at the 16th century having wide theological differences with some "protestants" of today. There are different denominations. The best thing to do is to look at the statement of faith of each one and compare it to the Word of God. The greatest reason I left the AAC (Armenian Apostolic Church) is the due to the worship liturgy itself. The Badarak being a resacrifice of Christ, the priesthood acting as a propitiatory and mediatory priesthood offering up Christ as a sacrifice for the absolution of sins, and also because of the creature elevation of Mary and other Saints and of idols.

[Dynaman]

Onnig paragam:

 

"There is nothing one can do?..." For as spiritually sophisticated as you surely are, you should know nothing is above God. Respectfully, I don't buy that statement, and I know you don't either. If I were to make an educated guess, you are most likely just tired and mentally exhausted from thinking about it, and arguing with people about it. Been there done that! The Catholic Church once fell from it's sin, and the Orthodox church may one day do the same, if it continues to not deal with it's issues. God is being patient for the time being; but don't be fooled; events and incidents are taking place that we do not know of. I believe spiritual leaders are under more stringent scrutiny than the rest of us in Gods eyes. God can tweak things to progress bad situations towards good. If you have thrown in the towel, then I suggest you at least continually pray for our Church on a daily basis, and specifically pray for Church clergy and personnel in in responsible positions.

 

 

Your pal, Aram

[Sip]

... nothing is above God.

 

I think God, by definition, is above God.

 

[hagopn]

Hi Aram,

 

I reluctantly left the church years ago but looking back now it was the best thing I ever did in my life, well second best, because the Armenian Church is not a church of biblical Christianity but rather has been tainted by a man-centered gospel rather than a Christ-centered one.

 

This may seem like a very harsh statement but if you test the doctrines of the Armenian Church against the Word of God you will find many, many errors not on a simple level of concession but rather on heretical grounds. The article I posted is but a symptom of the nature of the problem which is the abandonment of the Word of God as the sole rule of faith and authority for the Church.

 

The Armenian Church will definitely NOT change its doctrines. Their house was built upon sand, meaning they have built upon man and man’s supposed authority and not on the authority of the clear Word of God. They have a low view of God because they have a high view of man.

 

So when I left the church and worshiped God in Spirit and in Truth which can only be done when it is guided by God’s Word alone then worship became what it should be, a true worship of the living God of the Universe free from any creature elevation and idols. I saw what the true meaning of worship, to exult God and give Him all the glory in everything, even in my own salvation which I have nothing to boast about since it is all His work.

 

If you haven’t already guessed, I am protestant (poghokagan) and more specifically Reformed Protestant. By the way, great sig!

 

p.s. I don’t know this Mutafyan person. I am not politically motivated as sadly most Armenians are.

 

With all due respect to your spiritual quest, what do you mean by "political motivation?" The will to remain Armenian?

 

 

[hagopn]

This is the opinion of the Turkish Slave Mutafyan. He has to say these things.

 

Mutafyan is avoiding random murders of Amrenians. Please consult http://www.rozanehmagazine.com/NoveDec05/A...yeganPart1.html some literature on the fanaticism that exists in Turkey. I understand your need for spiritual nourishment and the quest for a communion with God, but you must also be aware of worldly things, such as the fact that fanatical Turks are murderous barbarians.

[annannimusss]

Well Turks are all animals, we all know that, inhumane beasts.

[onnig]

Onnig paragam:

 

"There is nothing one can do?..." For as spiritually sophisticated as you surely are, you should know nothing is above God. Respectfully, I don't buy that statement, and I know you don't either. If I were to make an educated guess, you are most likely just tired and mentally exhausted from thinking about it, and arguing with people about it. Been there done that! The Catholic Church once fell from it's sin, and the Orthodox church may one day do the same, if it continues to not deal with it's issues. God is being patient for the time being; but don't be fooled; events and incidents are taking place that we do not know of. I believe spiritual leaders are under more stringent scrutiny than the rest of us in Gods eyes. God can tweak things to progress bad situations towards good. If you have thrown in the towel, then I suggest you at least continually pray for our Church on a daily basis, and specifically pray for Church clergy and personnel in in responsible positions.

Your pal, Aram

 

You may be right my friend, I hope you are. My prayers continue for the church and my countrymen. One thing I didn't quite understand, you said,

 

"The Catholic Church once fell from it's sin"

 

When exactly did this happen? Do you mean the Roman Catholic Church? Aram, they are still apostate and believe the most pagan doctrines that are so foreign to Scripture.

 

Onnig

[onnig]

With all due respect to your spiritual quest, what do you mean by "political motivation?" The will to remain Armenian?

 

Exactly so, where it prevails above being a Christian and following Christ. Please read my article I just posted on "Too Many Mundane Issues" and you'll see why I feel this way.

[onnig]

Well Turks are all animals, we all know that, inhumane beasts.

 

You don't really believe this way, do you? What about the Christian Turks who just recently were brutally martyred for Christ:

 

http://www.armeniansforchrist.com/modules....icle&sid=26

 

I'm sure you don't feel they, who were martyred, were animals also, do you?

 

Onnig

[annannimusss]

I meant there mentality,the way there mind works. And these poor people were an exeption, in a country filled with hate.

[Dynaman]

You may be right my friend, I hope you are. My prayers continue for the church and my countrymen. One thing I didn't quite understand, you said,

When exactly did this happen? Do you mean the Roman Catholic Church? Aram, they are still apostate and believe the most pagan doctrines that are so foreign to Scripture.

 

Onnig

 

 

I was referring to when Martin Luther came in, resulting in the exodus of many people from the Roman Catholic Church, caused mostly of the sales of it's indulgences.

[onnig]

I meant there mentality,the way there mind works. And these poor people were an exeption, in a country filled with hate.

Then you should make those exceptions known and not stereotype or make such prejudice blanket statements.

[aSoldier]

You don't really believe this way, do you? What about the Christian Turks who just recently were brutally martyred for Christ:

 

http://www.armeniansforchrist.com/modules....icle&sid=26

 

I'm sure you don't feel they, who were martyred, were animals also, do you?

 

Onnig

 

I never knew such a site existed..thanks!

[gigglyshy]

Hi Aram,

 

I reluctantly left the church years ago but looking back now it was the best thing I ever did in my life, well second best, because the Armenian Church is not a church of biblical Christianity but rather has been tainted by a man-centered gospel rather than a Christ-centered one.

 

This may seem like a very harsh statement but if you test the doctrines of the Armenian Church against the Word of God you will find many, many errors not on a simple level of concession but rather on heretical grounds. The article I posted is but a symptom of the nature of the problem which is the abandonment of the Word of God as the sole rule of faith and authority for the Church.

 

The Armenian Church will definitely NOT change its doctrines. Their house was built upon sand, meaning they have built upon man and man’s supposed authority and not on the authority of the clear Word of God. They have a low view of God because they have a high view of man.

 

So when I left the church and worshiped God in Spirit and in Truth which can only be done when it is guided by God’s Word alone then worship became what it should be, a true worship of the living God of the Universe free from any creature elevation and idols. I saw what the true meaning of worship, to exult God and give Him all the glory in everything, even in my own salvation which I have nothing to boast about since it is all His work.

 

If you haven’t already guessed, I am protestant (poghokagan) and more specifically Reformed Protestant. By the way, great sig!

 

p.s. I don’t know this Mutafyan person. I am not politically motivated as sadly most Armenians are.

 

the Armenian Orthodox Church is more biblical than whatever protestant church you have joined. have you ever studied stuff about the armenian orthodox church? let me guess, you are going to throw a bunch of bible verses out of context at me to tell me that the armenian orthodox church is unbiblical and that they worship idols, right? most protestants do that and leave out a lot of stuff, or "forget" to read a lot of stuff. i was wondering, have you ever read the book of exodas? i dont konw what you know about the armenian orthodox divine liturgy, but all of its traditions comes from various books of the bible-old and new testament. the external traditions that you see when you go there, like the vestments and archetecture, the things used and such are all from the book of exodas. Jesus didn't abolish tradition when He came. He kept condemning the pharisees because they were making everyone follow the rules that were originally meant for the levite priests, such as the ritualistic cleansing of hands before eating, etc. Jesus didn't abolish all tradition. If He were, then you should be condemned for using tradition as well, because protestants have a tradition of relying on the Bible and taking everything within it literally. Protestantism has its own traditions... many of them being ways of thinking and such. Youc an't say that youa re in a tradition-free church becuase that is impossible. tradition free means anarchy, and i'm pretty sure that protestant churches have some rules and things they do every sunday that are in repetition.

 

i feel sorry for people who have left the church because of the state that it is in now. how can you condemn the armenian orthodox church when most of its people and church leaders were slaughtered? the armenian church used to have many active monasteries and convents all over turkey up to the time of the genocide, but those things have been wiped out, along with the spirituality of the armenian church. the armenian orthodox church, like many other churches that went through terrible, terrible times such as genocide and the soviet era have had to start over and build up strength again. how can you condemn a church that you obviously don't know anything about? before you condemn the church, I challenge you to learn about it from an armenian orthodox point of view. THEN, AFTER YOU CONSIDER OUR PERSPECTIVE OF OUR HISTORY, IT IS GOOD TO GATHER YOUR OWN OPINIONS ABOUT IT. you only don't like the armenian orthodox church becuase it didn't serve you. i doubt that you reluctantly left the church becuase if you truly wanted to stay in the armenian church to seek the truth about it, then you would have.

 

i've visited the armenian protestant churches. they are nothing more than armenian cultural clubs that sing a few songs about Jesus and then go home. most Armenian protestants aren't any different than other Armenians. Armenians who care more about their culture than their salvation constitutes most of the population of armenians. don't go blaming the armenian orthodox church for that.

 

do you honestly think that you know better than those who created the armenian orthodox church to say that it is man centered and not God centered? i can show you books and books of information about our church and its traditions and how God centered it is. the people who serve in the church don't serve unless they are called by God to serve. Try calling that a man-centered church now!

 

testing the doctrine of the church against the word of God is fine, but you don't know how to read the Bible. you are reading it according to the mind of a 21st century person when clearly, the apostles and prophets and saints who wrote the books of the Bible wrote them for people back in their days to understand. ifyou want to understnad the Bible and what the writers of the Bible wanted us to understnad, why not read some of their other writings and writings written by friends of the apostles and saints? there are dozens of things that were written by people who personally knew the apostles and saints, about the gospels and everything in the Bible. I suggest that you check out their sources. Who are they? They are usually called the Church Fathers. also, don't go about picking verses out of the Bible. anyone can do that and prove someone to be right or wrong. Even the devil did that to try and tempt Jesus. You do'nt think the devil can do the same to you?

[gigglyshy]

Okie-Doke.. Fair enough...You are not the first nor will you be the last to leave. And yes the brotherhood is very tight knit on retaining their historical philosophy. It does appear the Apostolics pull the "H" card when ever new ideas are expressed, plus there seems to be a group of Church Board members who are threatened by new ideas fearing everyone will leave the church -- so "status quo" it is. I am sure you know all of this. I believe Board members who also help guide the Church think this way because of a distant relationship between themselves and God. After all, sadly to say, Bible study is discouraged in the Armenian Church.

 

Having said all of this Onning, certainly you would agree, the Protestant Church has it's own problems as well. There are so many varieties of them. Why??? Well.. once again theology arguments and interpretations. It's often not clear cut to get to the truth. I once thought to myself, even if the Bible were written blatanly as in the ten commandments, there would be some dodo asking the definition of what "is" or "not" truly means.

 

I would encourage you not to be upset. It is an uphill battle, just as it was when Jesus was physically around. Jesus was essentially a heretic to Jews, and frankly still remains that way today.

 

If you are strong enough in your Godly walk. I would suggest going back maybe once a month and see how God may use you. You may have already tried and failed in the past, but leaving just lets the devil win, and we can't have that.

 

Armenian Protestant Church? What denomination?

 

Hay! it's a great day to be alive!

 

Aram

 

Have you ever attended an Armenian Orthodox Church? Bible study is certainly NOT prohibited. It's encouraged! I think that you see the armenian church through tainted glasses, because everything done in the armenian orthodox church is according to scripture. everything from the outward traditions of the badarak (exodus, etc.) to the inward traditions (new testament, etc.)... it is all quoted from the Bible. like the hymn "soorp asdvatz"-the words are taken directly from a verse in the book of Revelations. a priest in the armenian orthodox church is not allowed to talk about anything he wants during the sermon. he gives a sermon based upon the gospel reading for the day.

 

it's silly of you to assume things when you don't know anything about the armenian orthodox church. you are trying to understand the armenian orthodox church from a protestant viewpoint. it's the dumbest thing you could do. if you want to understand something or anything better, you must study it first from their perspective before making your own judgments. it's like that with everything and anything. you can't assume things when you havent been in an orthodox christian's shoes to know what it is.

 

the problem with protestantism is, the way they approach scripture is not correct. they approach it like it was written for us to understand today. while in many cases, the language of the Bible will never become outdated, many of the things within it will be misunderstood, becuase whether you like it or not, the authors of the books in the Bible wrote it for the people in the time period in which the authors lived. It's like trying to read Shakespeare now... did you know that he puts a lot of jokes in tehre but most of us don't know abou tit because the sayings and things used back in the day are no longer understood! same with the Bible (not with jokes, obviously). if you want to understand what the authors intended for you to understand from the Bible, then I suggest that you read things written by those who actually KNEW the apostles and others PERSONALLY. because in the end, we are just reading a translation. a lot of things are lost through translation, because it is impossible to translate everything from one language to another. who are these people whose writings you can read? the Church Fathers. I'm guessing you will not be happy with what I said becuase you reject everything that has to do with the notion of "church". What if I were to tell you that a bunch of protestants published the writings of the church fathers' commentary on verses throughout the entire Bible? It's a series of 28 books, and has commentary on many of the important verses within scripture throughout the entire Bible: http://www.ivpress.com/accs/ (published by intervarsity press)

 

that's why i dont like protestantism-nobody knows the truth about scripture because they are all basing it on their own opinions. however, orthodox churches such as the armenian chruch, coptic church, syrian church, and many other orthodox churches do.

 

 

 

[annannimusss]

Bible study, we are now doing it on a weekly basis at St.Paul Fresno, us youth are taking the bull by the horns and doing it. And our youth organization the ACYO is going through a major change to make sure that we do more bible studies, and more christian education. This is coming directly from Surpazan!

 

 

http://www.acyo-wd.org/