Grammar (revised)

[ghostbox]

parev tsez. Hartsoom muh oonim. Arevmdahayeren ge khosim oo ge krem payts gan orenkner vor chem hisher. Manavant, vor dareree ge kordzadzes p, ts, k, t, eh, o, ch, r, v, tsayneroon hamarYeteh gareli eh orenkneruh esvi, shad shnorhagaloutyoun tsez.

-stepan

Edited October 11, 2007 by ghostbox

[MosJan]

Welcome to HyeForum ghostbox

 

if you wish to post in Armenia use the Armenian Translit to type and post

you can see the Translit next to wrap in cod tag / below font Sizes >> SHOW TRANSLIT

 

Welcome to Hyeforum

[Johannes]

Բարով եկար Ստեփան,

Միակ օրէնքը զոր կրնամ յիշել. ընթերցանութիւնն է: Շատ պիտի կարդալ, որպէսզի տպաւորուիլ, այսինքն անգիր ընել, մանաւանդ արեւմտահայոց համար:

 

[ghostbox]

 

 

ha, hasgtsa. Uys midke ooneyi payts gerevi myayn badaskhann eh. shad shnorhagaloutyoun Johannes.

Edited October 11, 2007 by ghostbox

[Էլիա]

parev tsez. Hartsoom muh oonim. Arevmdahayeren ge khosim oo ge krem payts gan orenkner vor chem hisher. Manavant, vor dareree ge kordzadzes p, ts, k, t, eh, o, ch, r, v, tsayneroon hamarYeteh gareli eh orenkneruh esvi, shad shnorhagaloutyoun tsez.

-stepan

p - բ, փ

ts - ձ, ց

k - գ, ք

t - դ, թ

eh - է

o - ո, օ

ch - չ, ջ

r - ր, ռ

v - ւ, վ

[ghostbox]

p - ?, ?

ts - ?, ?

k - ?, ?

t - ?, ?

eh - ?

o - ?, ?

ch - ?, ?

r - ?, ?

v - ?, ?

 

che che.. dareruh kidem. myayn chem kider yerp kordzadzel ait dareruh vor 2agan en. aisinkn yete pari me mech "p" tsaynuh ga, inchbes ge kidnas yete "pen" gam "pyur" bid kordzadzes.. yevailn.

shnorhagaloutyoun

[Arpa]

che che.. dareruh kidem. myayn chem kider yerp kordzadzel ait dareruh vor 2agan en. aisinkn yete pari me mech "p" tsaynuh ga, inchbes ge kidnas yete "pen" gam "pyur" bid kordzadzes.. yevailn.

shnorhagaloutyoun

Yete, yev erb shitak hncounov khosil sovorinq ayt aten khndir@ k@ loudzoui. That is, when us so called western Armenians lern to pronounce the letters correcly as it was meant by Mashtots, then the problem will be a moot subject. Until we learn that the Armenian for David is david, not tavit, Daniel is daniel, not taniel and Georg(e) is Gevorg, not kevork.... ??? It is a wase of time until our teachers are trained to speak properly.

Did you see how I transliterated, i.e. when it is b ben I used b, when it is Ken I used K, when it is Keh I used Q, and Dz when it is Dza, I would have used TS if it were Tso. Also see that I typed khndir, not khntir.

Above Elia's table needs reviision in itself.

BTW. Can you see the Armenian letters? If not it will be very difficult to explain. Noting the way tranliterated words like "gam", "pen" etc it will doubly dificult.

Edited October 14, 2007 by Arpa

[ghostbox]

Yete, yev erb shitak hncounov khosil sovorinq ayt aten khndir@ k@ loudzoui. That is, when us so called western Armenians lern to pronounce the letters correcly as it was meant by Mashtots, then the problem will be a moot subject. Until we learn that the Armenian for David is david, not tavit, Daniel is daniel, not taniel and Georg(e) is Gevorg, not kevork.... ??? It is a wase of time until our teachers are trained to speak properly.

Did you see how I transliterated, i.e. when it is b ben I used b, when it is Ken I used K, when it is Keh I used Q, and Dz when it is Dza, I would have used TS if it were Tso. Also see that I typed khndir, not khntir.

Above Elia's table needs reviision in itself.

BTW. Can you see the Armenian letters? If not it will be very difficult to explain. Noting the way tranliterated words like "gam", "pen" etc it will doubly dificult.

 

 

Yes, I can see the letters in Armenian. So are you saying that the Western armenian pronunciaiton is incorrect? Or that our spelling is reversed?

[Arpa]

Yes, I can see the letters in Armenian. So are you saying that the Western armenian pronunciaiton is incorrect? Or that our spelling is reversed?

BINGO!!!

As incorrect as a camel's neck.

No, our spelling is correct, in fact more correct than that newfangled soviet Armenian ortography. However our pronunciation is as far from what Mashtots had in mind as Istanbul is from Yerevan.

Nairi had given the correct phonetics of the Ayb -Ben-Gim. I'll try and see if I can find it.

Note that I wrote Ayb Ben Gim, just like the Greek Alpha Beta Gamma, and not Ayppp Pppen Qqqim. It is beacause our language being IndoEuropean like the Greek should sound like the Greek, our language has very little common with turkish or Arabic therefore our pronunciation should be in line with Grek and Latin, not turkish or Arabic, none of which are IE languages..

Here is that item. Thanks Nairi.

http://hyeforum.com/index.php?showtopic=10100&hl=eastern

Despite what Johannes says above. He knows the phonetic values of our consonnants. Yes It does take copious reading, learning by heart, much blood, sweat and tears, yet if we were to learn the correct pronunciation of our AybBenGim, if only Glendale-atsi-s would learn to speak like the Yerevantsi-s** then it will as easy as ABC.

**This does not necessarily mean that one must stop saying "k@ grem/կը գրեմ"( forget that stupid կոր***) in favor of "groum em/գրում եմ". Both the K@/ԿԸ and -OUM variants are recognized as legimitate families of the Armenian language.

*** We have spoken about this. How the K@/Կը placed by the Sebastatsi and Karberdtsi dialects after the verb to mean the present continuous tense, as in "grem k@/գրեմ կը" , as in (I am) "writing" was turkified into kor/կոր.

Edited October 15, 2007 by Arpa

[ghostbox]

ok. i understand all that. but regardless, would anyone happen to know the grammatical rules for western armenian (mainly those pertaining to which letter to use in which instance)

ex. p sounds, r sounds, o sounds...

[Arpa]

ok. i understand all that. but regardless, would anyone happen to know the grammatical rules for western armenian (mainly those pertaining to which letter to use in which instance)

ex. p sounds, r sounds, o sounds...

Maybe I did not make it clear.

To know which consonnant to use when and where... LEARN TO SPEAK EASTERN ARMENIAN, that it is "khndzorխնձոր" not "khntsor/խնցոր"", it is "dzuk/ձուկ" not "tsoug/ցուկ"at it is "barev/բարեւ" not "պարէվ/parev" or փարեվ/pharev", then you will know if it is B or P, K or G. As to R ,if it is Re or Ra, please note that the Re is more prevalent, specially within the word context, not as the initial letter. You will note that very few, next to zero Armenian words begin with the letter RE, even names such as Raffi begin with the RA. Except when the R letter is followed by another consonnant most often N, it becomes RA like in "aRRnet/rat" and "aRRnanman/bloodlike" where the Re as in "ariun" turns to RA. As to O or VO, or Ye or E, that is a whole different story which we may have already talked about, yet it may be time to talk about again.

Please allow me to tease a little the letter Ոwas never meant to bepronounced as VO , neither did the letter Ե mean to be pronounced as YE. As to 0, Թ,Ւ and Փ those are a whole another story.

All of the above issues have been discussed under a variety of subjects. It may be time to start a whole new topic dealing with the basics of ABC/Alpha Beta Gamma and ԱԲԳ .

Yes! Yes! We know that this may be too advanced for the average beginner, as it has been often advanced. When was it that the teacher is less advanced than beginner student, or visa versa, that the student beginner was more "advanced" than the teacher?

Is it not time that teachers "teac"h (Hi, Nairi, inchpes es? , and students "learn" rather than the visa versa?

Edited October 16, 2007 by Arpa

[Դրօ]

In Western Armenian, the letters Բ, Գ, Դ, Ձ, Ջ were supposed to be unaspirated while Թ, Չ, Ց, Փ, Ք were supposed to be aspirated. However, the distinction was lost, due to Turkish influence and now both groups are aspirated.

[Դրօ]

neither did the letter Ե mean to be pronounced as YE.

I doubt that. Then what would've been the point of Է?

[Էլիա]

In Western Armenian, the letters Բ, Գ, Դ, Ձ, Ջ were supposed to be unaspirated while Թ, Չ, Ց, Փ, Ք were supposed to be aspirated. However, the distinction was lost, due to Turkish influence and now both groups are aspirated.

Բարեւ Դրօ: Կրնա՞ս հաճիս բացատրել թէ «aspirated»ը եւ «unaspirated»ը ի՞նչ են: Շնորհակալ եմ:

[Nor Hayastan]

parev tsez. Hartsoom muh oonim. Arevmdahayeren ge khosim oo ge krem payts gan orenkner vor chem hisher. Manavant, vor dareree ge kordzadzes p, ts, k, t, eh, o, ch, r, v, tsayneroon hamarYeteh gareli eh orenkneruh esvi, shad shnorhagaloutyoun tsez.

-stepan

 

If you spoke Eastern Armenian, those sounds would be much easier to decipher. Since in Eastern Armenian, we have seperate sounds for the Ts, Tz, K, Q, etc...

That's why it's much harder for Western Armenians to remember. This is not to say that Eastern Armenian doesn't have it's drawbacks when it comes to spelling (i.e. We pronounce Hoqis (with a Q-Ք) when it is supposed to be written as Hogis (with a Գ). But like Jovhannes mentioned, best bet is by reading more often you will get it down.

 

Maybe you can start pronouncing in Eastern Armenian? (j/k)

[ghostbox]

If you spoke Eastern Armenian, those sounds would be much easier to decipher. Since in Eastern Armenian, we have seperate sounds for the Ts, Tz, K, Q, etc...

That's why it's much harder for Western Armenians to remember. This is not to say that Eastern Armenian doesn't have it's drawbacks when it comes to spelling (i.e. We pronounce Hoqis (with a Q-Ք) when it is supposed to be written as Hogis (with a Գ). But like Jovhannes mentioned, best bet is by reading more often you will get it down.

 

Maybe you can start pronouncing in Eastern Armenian? (j/k)

 

 

interestinnnngggggg. so the final verdict is that Western has correct spelling and Eastern has correct pronunciation? If so (and regardless) I'm really interesting in learning what the correct pronunciations are of the letters. Grabar, although very different, has both the correct spelling and pronunciation I assume?

I ask this because I'm in the process of looking for a place to study abroad next fall and stumbled upon an Armenian Studies program in Jerusalem that offers courses such as grabar, ancient and medieval Armenian architechture, modern literature, and so on...

Yev shad shnorhagalatyoun amenout tser badaskhanneroun hamar.

Ստեփան