You Shouldn't Go Anywhere, Hrant Dink!

[DominO123]

At first, this article seems to be good intentioned and "intelligent." When it is not. It tries to give values to the Kemalistic ultra-nationalistic system.

 

Laughable it is, when the idiot(I'd call him inept of logical thinking), tries to associate Turkishness to a "nationality" but shoot on his feets, when he comes to call the Turks, Muslim Turks. That he BS such a thing, only picture the guy to be intellectualy inept, trying to give value to Ataturks racistic rhetorics, on the doors of Europe.

 

If some did not catch it. I'll give a clue. Armenians living in Turkey are "Turkish Armenians," Greeks living in Turkey, are "Turkish Greeks," Kurds living in Turkey, are "Kurdish Turks..., but Turks living in Turkey, are not "Turkish Turks" , but "Muslim Turks." Multiverse forbit them to covert to Christianity, or they'll be "Christian Turks." Oh yeh! I FORGOT, even when converted, on the identity paper, they are "Muslim."

 

It is really amuzzzing ..., the guy is trying to compare the "Turkish" notion with the notion of identity in Europe, actually, that movement was innitiated by Ataturk, when he tried to fool the Europeans with this.

 

What country in Europe, is there any different identifications for different groups? Wait a minute, there is here in Canada. But WHY? WHY? WHY? Because we have aboriginals, natives..., that's the POINT. When your Armenianess is pointed in your identification papers in Turkey, it has something to do with the Treaty of Lausanne, and the different statues. I don't know for Australia, but I guess, such things also exist for their natives too.

 

What I am trying to say, is that the Turkish conception of what being Turkish is, is not the same, as someone living in France, will say he is a French. The United States doesn't call itself Engley, or Quebec, Frenchey... Quebec, Canada are aborigines terms. In fact, there is no similar equivalents differenciations like "Turkish" and "Turk" in Europe. We don't call those "real" French, "Christian" French, when we have in mind "Frenchy French"(in comparaison with Turkish Turk). Of course, we do have words for other places, like "Japanese," but we do not have for Japanese, another differenciations, like we have Turkish and Turks.

 

And the Kemalist regime knew they were trying to fool, and for this same reason, they pooped theories about Kurds being Turks, rendering the need of a Kurdish identitifcation useless.

 

Even, the only places in Europe, that expended, dissolving other cultures..., to complete their own "Fatherland," have out of respect for the natives, another name. "England" is not "England" anymore but United Kingdom. If, it is true that everyone are a minority in Turkey, why having an identity associated with an ethnic group and not associated to a location?

 

 

YOU SHOULDN'T GO ANYWHERE, HRANT DINK!

 

Turkish Daily News

Oct 11 2005

 

I have started to get really annoyed with certain individuals

discriminating and belittling others because they are a 'minority,'

while at the same time knowing everyone in Turkey is part of a minority

 

Cuneyt Ulsever According to newspapers: "Hrant Dink was sentenced to

a suspended sentence of six months' imprisonment for 'insulting the

Turkish identity' in an article that appeared in the Agos daily. The

court found his co-defendant Karin Karakaþlý not guilty."

 

How did Dink respond to the court's decision?

 

"You insult a people and then continue to live amongst them? This

is a dishonorable act and I would never do that. If I can't explain

myself to society at large, I'll just pack up and leave the country,"

he was quoted as saying by Monday's Milliyet.

 

While some try to push this country forward, others try to pull

it back.

 

An expert who analyzed Dink's article deemed that there were no

insults, but the expert judge didn't agree.

 

The judge said, "You insulted Turkishness!"

 

Actually, Dink was found guilty of making fun of AND insulting

Turkishness.

 

If you separate the parts and interpret each individual section you can

reach any conclusion you want. For example, if you read the headline

of this article you may reach the conclusion that I want Dink to stay

in the country and pay for his crimes.

 

However, if you assess Hrant Dink in his entirety the first thing

you will see is that he himself is part of the Turkishness that he

"insulted and made fun of."

 

He is an Armenian Turk and I am a Muslim Turk. There are Jewish Turks,

Greek Turks, Kurd Turks, Laz Turks and Gypsy Turks among those who

will read this article.

 

I hope no one takes offense, but I can't accept the concept of

"citizen of Turkey" because I find it so foolish.

 

However, I also admit that we are all part of a supra-national

identity, while having many sub-identities. I, as a Muslim Turk,

am a part of the majority but I, as a Turk who comes from Turkey in

Europe, am also part of a minority.

 

I have started to get really annoyed with certain individuals

discriminating and belittling others because they are a "minority,"

while at the same time knowing everyone in Turkey is part of a

minority. We tend to forget the fact that, in one way or another,

we are all part of a minority.

 

What upset me the most was Dink's response, "I will just leave."

 

It's like this country is not his but someone else's.

 

I bet if a Sunni Muslim Turk was punished for the same crime he would

not have expressed his anger with those words.

 

No, Dink, you shouldn't go anywhere as you belong right here! Even

if you received a foolish punishment, you are still a part of us.

 

Turkey is beautiful with its constituent parts. With the Muslims,

Greeks, Jews, Armenians, Kurds, Laz, Gypsies, Georgians, Azeris and

Arabs, it is a single unit and beautiful. No one has the power to

force anyone out.

 

-----------

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[DominO123]

Also, I would add that Dink has probably an intelligence above average when comparing it with such nationalist idiots, because that is specifically what he was saying, when he reffered to the "My heroic race" crap, which picture this journalist thesis to be bogus. This journalist hasn't grasped a bit of Dinks remark and the intend of that remark, he seems to not have the intellectual capability to grasp the sense of it, because had he grasped it, he would not have writen this dumb article, when the primary theses vehiculated by the author is shown by Dink to be not accurate. Edited October 11, 2005 by QueBeceR

[MosJan]

wow a turk talking about honorable or dishonorable

[Nakharar]

Turkey is officially a nation-state, unlike Canada or the USA. The Japanese and Koreans are a good example, but then they don't have any minorities. I think Turkey has adopted and preserved the antiquated European model of the 1920s and wants to maintain this no matter what. I guess they have never heard of the European Council resolutions not to mention the Helsinki Accords. Even the French, who devised the concept of the nation-state, make the distinction between franc and français.

[Z'areh]

Turkey is officially a nation-state, unlike Canada or the USA. The Japanese and Koreans are a good example, but then they don't have any minorities. I think Turkey has adopted and preserved the antiquated European model of the 1920s and wants to maintain this no matter what. I guess they have never heard of the European Council resolutions not to mention the Helsinki Accords. Even the French, who devised the concept of the nation-state, make the distinction between franc and français.

 

 

Although agreeing with the main point of Q about Yusuf Kanli's the "Turk" vs the "muslim Turk", I must say that I was also surprised at Hrant Dink's announcement that he would leave the country if the decision is not reversed. He would have commanded the respect of his fellow "Turks" is he had said that he would stay and fight for his rights, even if that would lead him to more confrontations with the authorities. The idea of leaving the country can have other connotations, mainly "giving up" but also not having the guts to withstand the pressures. Here I declare a personal admission that it is far easier for me to talk like this, in the comfort of my freedom in Montreal.

 

As for nation states, Armenia is as much a candidate to that notion as is Turkey, if not more. In a country that has about 95% of a single entity I wonder how many consider the other 5% as Armenians, (in the same way we accuse Yusuf Kanli as doing it to Hrant Dink) Yezdi Kurds being case in point.

[DominO123]

As for nation states, Armenia is as much a candidate to that notion as is Turkey, if not more. In a country that has about 95% of a single entity I wonder how many consider the other 5% as Armenians, (in the same way we accuse Yusuf Kanli as doing it to Hrant Dink) Yezdi Kurds being case in point.

 

Zareh, I think, there are few other things into consideration.

 

The nametag Turkey to that territory is pretty recent, when the state was formed, there was still some "natives" there, Kurds in particular. The new concept this writter is giving, is a justification to the Kemalistic conception, which was at its core racistic. He is trying to give a modern European value and reinterprate something, and giving it a sense that it does not really possess.

 

Armenia, is not a nametag attached to the current republic of Armenia as it was the cases with Turkey. The land takes the name of the natives(of course McFarty and Azeris nationalist scholars may disagree, but who cares what delusional people believes in, and again, I've placed that claim to rest, in the Axis forum when bringing statistics about the so-called massive Armenian immigration to "Erivan"), there was no forced process, but the formation was a continuity.

 

In short, that there is a slime minority in Armenia is nothing surprising, as I've developped in the History axis forum, the contrary would have been surprising. Besides, Armenia, or Armenians, didn't had to invent a racistic based conception of what being "Armenian" is, the ideology and conception of Armenian nationstate, in one form or another existed for centuries, even though an independent Armenian territory didn't existed. On the other hand, the way the Turkish nation was formed, was something out/lack of continuity, the way the Armenian population was destroyed, getting rid of the Greeks, and the very serious issues and killings directed against the Arabs. And later on, with the Kurds..., the name Turkey, and the nationstate, was placed there, also as a disrespect for those that were living there and not calling themselves Turks. It would be equivalent, as if the United States of America was to be called England?

 

While, the name was set, and others, like the Kurds, had no right to have a nation on their names, the Kemalistic regime, found to be easier to place the name tage "montain Turks" to Kurds, than admit their existance as Kurds and recognize their differences. But, what is contradictory with this notion, is that "Turkish racism" seems to be different than others, this notion of "blood" differences exist, but on the same time, others, like Kurds have "Turkish blood" too(because they're Turk). There is an opposition, between "Turkification" and the typical European Germanic form of Racism. This is the best defense for those ultra-nationalist authors that justify the Kemalist "Turkishness,"(amd fool the Europeans) because it will be very easy for them, to claim that being Turkish is a nationality, and giving the example of the Kurds, that are called "Turkish" too. But, it is not so, this is exactly like terrorists and good people use the same wholy works out there to justify whatever they do, because such works are full of contradiction patching too different positions etc.

 

Armenian "racism," is typical racism that would be exposed easily, Turkish racism, is jusitified in the core, with Ataturks notions. And Dink comment about the "Heroic race" crap here, was in fact the exposition of this contradiction. While Turkishness is claimed to be a nationality, the Turkish nationalhymne, clearly picture that Turkishness is in fact considered as a race(My heroic race), also Ataturks history fondation at the core of those notions was clearly and obviously racistic. I think this issue is important and should be raised before Turkey comes an EU member, because it is one of the major things that should be changed in Turkey, this perverted blind nationalistic proudness, I think is unmatched, and even compared to the Armenians that brag Armenias tricolor in any given occasions. If Dink with such remarks is raising this awarness, I think his warning of leaving the country is a good way to get the attention needed.

[Stormig]

He would have commanded the respect of his fellow "Turks" is he had said that he would stay and fight for his rights, even if that would lead him to more confrontations with the authorities. The idea of leaving the country can have other connotations, mainly "giving up" but also not having the guts to withstand the pressures. Here I declare a personal admission that it is far easier for me to talk like this, in the comfort of my freedom in Montreal.

I'm sure you're correct in your personal admission. Dink is probably as tired as any Turk, if not more so, of putting up with the crap flying around. Moreover, I don't know how many Turks there are that would commend his efforts. Under these circumstances, where just about everyone is turned against you, I find nothing wrong in someone jumping a decision and starting to think of washing his hands of the crap. The average Turk has had it, why shouldn't someone who is ostracized? Being a "hero" in such a society means threats, jeers, etc., and that is not everyone's cup of coffee. The people who organized "the Armenian conference" are being branded as this or that under a number of conspiracies swallowed hook, line, and sinker by the population at large, while hypocritically a few months ago there was an "Armenian reality and Azerbaijan" symposium.

This is not to say that the likes of him aren't important in bringing that message across... But it shouldn't be at the risk of their health, freedom, or lives...

[yalpa]

The nametag Turkey to that territory is pretty recent,

 

Correction: the nametag Turkey is actually not very recent. It was invented by Italians around the 13th century. What is very recent is its use by Turks. To Turks it was Anatolia or the land of Romans (Rums). However, both usages were for the region all the way to Euphrates.

[DominO123]

Correction: the nametag Turkey is actually not very recent. It was invented by Italians around the 13th century. What is very recent is its use by Turks. To Turks it was Anatolia or the land of Romans (Rums). However, both usages were for the region all the way to Euphrates.

 

I wasn't aware it was used on 13nt century. Sure Turkey was also equated with Ottoman, but most of the time, it was rather "Ottoman Turkey."

 

BTW, take my recent rantings easily, I'm really furious of Kemalism and hypocrasy these days. Am I turning into a fanatic? I don't know.

[Stormig]

I wasn't aware it was used on 13nt century. Sure Turkey was also equated with Ottoman, but most of the time, it was rather "Ottoman Turkey."

True, the British, too, called the Ottoman Empire "Turkey" long before the 20th century.

[DominO123]

True, the British, too, called the Ottoman Empire "Turkey" long before the 20th century.

 

True, but it was used alternativaly with Ottoman Turkey or Turkish Empire, during which, the British had an Empire also. And during the same moment, the British had also other maps too. I knew about the British, but the 13nt century thing, I didn't knew about.