Aaron

I read an interview of Haygaz alvrtsian in the armenian paper of montreal it confirmed what i said, "Alexander Miasnikian seriously lighted the javakhk case in kremlin at the beginning of the 20s". Maybe this isn't an official demand but it proves that today's problem is not artifically created and that back in the days this dilemma existed. The section dedicated to javakhk said that the number of armenians living there (and specially the city of akhatsikhe) has drastically diminished over the last 70 years and that the bad conditions in javakhk were not comparable to other regions of georgia or armenia but much worse (middle age equivalent). I can send you guys the paper if you want.

"Vos desirs sont des ordres" means your wishes are orders for me, just a french saying ! I suggest we start with discussing the situation of present day Armenian scientists and on what fields do we stand the most chances of excelling in. I believe applied science (technology, engineering) should be given a boost because of its direct effects on economy, plus pure science is already supposed to be very good in Armenia (Not the funding but the scientists themselves, I was there 2 years ago). There is no doubt about the fact that whatever we have today, we owe it to Soviet educational system.

MJ "vos desirs sont des ordres" I don't mind at all.

Mayja What kind of music do you guys listen to in Lithuania, is it Russian music or anything American passes too? What do you play at parties, techno, hip hop or dance, and in what language are they (even though the language is not that important in music). I remember that when I was in Armenia any song was good for a party, a lot of nice russian songs. Finally have you ever danced to the traditional lithuanian music and is it similar to russian. I know its a lot of questions but I have to impress someone that came from Ukraine, I believe its pretty similar to Lithuania. By by!

I know that this topic is not supposed to be exactly in this section but i thought it is the closest thing to science. The french always refer to "arts et science". So the goal is to discover how developed is science in Armenia, this will inevitably lead to discussions on soviet era armenian science when we were known to be very good (top guns) in the domain. Any comments!!

Just reminding you guys that the topic is Iran I'll go now by by !

MJ The info about no armenian government having contested javakhk might not be true (I'm not certain). When Haygaz Alvrtsian, the guy we read the interview, came to Canada he told the public that there had been official demands by the armenian side to the soviet government in the 20s or 30s concercning this subject, that interview wasn't published in the press only on Tv, so I don't know how to verify it but i'll try. That javakhk has not been part of armenian borders for the last 1000 1500 years is not relevant because no armenian territory has been part of a nonexistant country called armenia between the fall of the bagratunis and 1918, is this a reason to say that (before 1918)the last time Erevan was inside armenia was a 1000 years ago and thus can not be considered as armenian territory (because of too big of a time laps). But i get your point on javakhk being kind of away from the motherland (or always disputed between two motherlands). I don't know which one of you it was ALpha or MJ that said that refugees from erzurum came to the egion in 1827-1829, it is true but don't forget that they were far from being the first armenians of the region, no question about it.

Karine I personnaly don't believe in this and i've heard the story many times since 1988. this is too big of an event to be kept away from people, its not like killing JFK or the UFO cases. Such a project requires a lot of manpower, many scientists, officials, military, politicians, hundreds of people, plus you just cant lose two ICBM s (missiles) without people knowing what happened to them, each missile is followed by hundreds of engineers and other security measures are taken as well. And if those who did it got away with it and today are laughing at our emails, then I must admit that revealing the truth today would be even more painfull for people. So I blame nature But still, if it turns out to be true,I wouldn't sit down home, I wouldn't be able to digest it. it would be the biggest crime against humanity AAAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! Why did you have to raise doubts in my brain I can't sleep or work now...

MJ I don't agree, as you said, that the bad conditions armenians are living in are the result only of Georgia's difficult present day situation, I believe that there is a certain carelessness towards armenians (perhaps intentional) in Georgian politicians in general. I said that this could be arguable, and if we had argued i would have expressed my opinion clearly. I'm not saying georgians (not the politicians) have evil intentions towards armenians but it is a fact that armenians live in worse conditions than the ordinary georgians. Javakhk case refers to the problem of akhalkalak, javakhk being the ancient armenian name of the region. The word "case" should not be understood as a branch or equivalent of "armenian case" but rather as the problem of javakhk.Lets face it, there is a problem in javakhk (otherwise we wouldn't discuss it so deeply), just like some countries have problems with unsatisfied citizens of an underdeveloped region. And I don't think the situation is out of control or alarming at all, it is a very fixable case if there is will from both sides.

MJ I agree with most of your statements but also with some of what Hovig said. I was in Armenia 2 years ago in "Medzavan" a village 500 meters away from the Georgian border (my father is from there) and i had the opportunity to visit georgia many times. It is true that the condition of armenians there is much (not a little) worse than in Armenia. Now we can argue wether those conditions are artificially created by georgians or are the result of the mess Georgia is going through. I personnaly don't think the ordinary georgians of the region have any negative feelings towards armenians but its true that akhalkalak is the poorest province in Georgia and extremely underdeveloped. Its as if armenians were second class citizens in the republic. On rumors of a second Karabagh starting in the region, I think they are over exagerated, georgian and armenian politicians know very well that such a scenario would be suicide for Armenia and that's why the Javakhk case doesn't worry them at all, independentists would have no support from no one. Its sad to notice, but it seems that the javakhk case is being sacrificed for the well being of the rest of Armenia, and I must admit that there are no other alternatives (besides Armenia helping javakhk economically, which won't happen for a while). speaking of friendship,having lived there when i was a child i know that the population of the region (azeris, armenians, georgians) go along very well. Even after the karabagh conflict azeris would get in armenian villages and visit their armenian friends and vice versa. The point is, all these rivalries, conflict rumors, armenians being misstreated in Georgia, are politician's jobs. The presence of the russian base there is good for us in the sense that it employs most of the local armenians and I don't think it is a military bonus for the armenians (same as you MJ). Yes we will share prosperity with the Georgians some day, the hard thing is to wait patiently, sometimes swallowing frustrations, for that day.

Steve U2 talent has not at all gone away, in fact their latest album is extremely popular and is considered among their best. U2 is not bullshit Very few of their songs are meaningless, they have serious messages about life, and humanity, moreover, Bono (the lead singer) is involved (perhaps more than any other singer)in humanitarian causes specially in erasing the third world countries' debts towards the west (it counts in the hundreds of millions). And finally have you forgotten the Joshua Tree, songs like With or without you, Streets have no name haven't found what i'm looking for one love and many others that speak to 'almost' every human's heart. Its a different question that your taste is different, but your opinion about U2 being showoffs is definitely not shared by most of the planet.

Karine or Mos-jan do you know what films will be playing, if yes write me about it. and speaking of cinema, we could open a new topic on it, i`m gonna think about it by by sweet pies!!

Since we all seem to agree that nationalism is not necessaraly the best of things than what do you guys think about the Karabagh conflict, the will of Armenians to unite or be independent is to a certain degree(if not completely) a form of nationalism, one that braught a war to the region. I personnaly am for Karabagh independence, but this seems to create a contradiction between my anti-nationalist stance and war for freedom, or is it that nationalism is sometimes good and necessary ! somebody, illuminate me please.(what i really mean is (nute dak dak dzezenk)

Ara Interesting philosophy, if only human instincts were less violent when it comes to matters of justice, freedom or national issues. Do you think it is possible to change the human brain to that point, I personnaly don`t believe it.

For all the forum members living in Europe, U2 will soon begin a European tour in Copenhagen. I personally love U2 very much and saw them perform in may in Canada, for me they are the equivalent of the beatles these days, so if you are a U2 fan it might not be too late to get tickets. good luck!

Shirag I don't know if Roupen has a home page but I think he will be in canada this summer, so you can count an me to ask how to contact him.

Jugernaut just by curiosity, were you at the olympics (sydney) last year, and if yes tell me how it was.

The real question(as if i know it) is 'is the present day armenian nationalism good or bad for Armenia or Armenians?'. At first glance nationalism cannot be good, it is responsible for most crimes against humanity during this century (and throughout history), it is the driving force behind racism, and most importantly, it is against modern day principles of ethnic tolerance, globalization of the world and goes against economic progress in general. All of this to say that the present day world is totally unnationalist (or perhaps governments have allways been anti-nationalist for their interests) and that we (armenians or more exactly Armenia) cannot present ourselves to the world as nationalists, even though some of us are like that. Patriotism is the utopic solution, if every armenian was patriotic, non violent, worked for the wellbeing of Armenia without any bad feelings towards turkey then we would live in paradise. I don't think that can happen now, frustrations are still alive in diaspora armenians(less than before), and turning this into constructive patriotism directed towards Armenia depends very much on current situation of Armenia or wether Turkey will show some 'big brotherish' comprehensive attitude towards the genocide issue that haunts diaspora armenians(very unlikely). So how to change Armenian nationalism, for the benefit of future Armenia and armenians, to patriotism without losing the people's sense of identity or attachment to the nation. Or should nationalism be destroyed (because of humanistic principles and the well being of humans living in Anatolya) regardless of its consequences on Armenia (at the risk of losing the country or a significant number of armenians to the armenian cause)? Seems like a dilemma. A politician's job i conclude, and my current status as a student does definitely not give me the expertise of advancing my personal idea's on solving the problem. I'm waiting for others to elaborate and develope the topic. Due to technical difficulties I'll dive in more aggressively later.

I pretty much agree with what you said MJ. I believe armenian nationalism was born with the armenian leaders of late 19th century, the genocide, and was kept alive by the fact that armenians didn't get justice for what happened to them. I think Armenian nationalism(revolution)came as a natural reaction to the unnatural and unacceptable conditions armenians were living in for centuries under ottoman rule. The first revolutionary leaders cannot be blamed for leaving a permanent nationalist print on most present day armenians, they cannot be blamed for claiming a country of their own, dissing Turkey, nourishing Armenians with hate against the opressor and encouraging them to kill in order to obtain what they want. All of this were the desperate measures of a desperate nation to a desperate situation. I firmly believe that one's contact with his/her land is the first step of developing clean and constructive patriotism. In order to care, work hard, sacrifice and dedicate huge amounts of energy for a country one must know (not by the books)that country, its people and feel attachment to it. Unfortunately this isn't the case of most diaspora armenians who have nevr been to armenia and don't know much about it besides history and what books tell them. This could explain the fact that many(not all) armenians have found in nationalism a way of remaining armenian. I don't agree that this same nationalism is destructive, violent and degrading. These nationalist people (most)are not bloodthirsty, vengefull or frustrated, they just have 'turkish reperations' on their list of priorities, and do honestly believe this is what the armenian nation needs the most(perhaps true but very arguable). I don't believe destroying turkey or azerbaijan is appealing to any armenian (over 18). I'll continue writing, but I'm in a rush and have to go.

MY impressions of the day? I've been working on this computer project for days, and reading peoples conversations every hour on hy forum is becoming my main distraction during work hours. thanks for entertaining me, you clowns!! just joking. happy late birthday to kazza (even though i don't know you, i just saw that everyone was saying it). this forum is amazing, i'll get more active soon. see you tomorrow

Hi Paul! I heard your call about resettlment in artsakh. There is already such a program going on, but on a smaller level. It consists of populating one or two villages in the regions close to Arax river just close to the armenian border near zangezur. The person responsible for this project came to Canada and expained his plans to the public. Also, the government of Karabagh is trying as hard as possible to relocate refugees in numerous "strategical" areas of Karabagh. Its a long term plan. Try to elaborate your's, I want to know what steps you think should be taken to succeed in this project. For my part, I don't think its the thing to do NOW, before serious peace talks, it could be seen as provocation by the Azeris because of the whole refugee return problems. I wait for your answer by the way my name is Aaron and i'm new to this forum Hi everyone!

regarding the return of the emigrants. If we base our predictions on lessons from history, chances are most of refugees won't go back. And if we concentrate all of our efforts on improving Armenia's situation that would'nt do it either on the short term. The reason is that most of these people left Armenia for more secure, prosperous, economically stable lands. It is very possible that Armenia becomes some day such a country, but not in a near future.Even if Armenia starts to improve the life standards of its citizens these improvements would take years or decades to reach anything close to European standards. By this time the generation that left Armenia will be replaced by the one born on foreign shores, one that has never seen Armenia and thus doesn't have the same level of attachment to the country. So the question is not "would you go to Armenia if it turned into a prosperous country ",but rather "would you go there and work with all the energy you have to make it into the type of country you want it to be?" I don't think Armenia can attract (now and for a while) people by presenting good living conditions (if any), only patriotism and a personal attachment and simpathy (social purposes) to the country can keep and bring in people. Many armenians are still in Armenia for these reasons and not because they make a good living there. Of course, it's very hard to build a country by feelings (or maybe feelings are the main ingredient in the making of a country, good topic to discuss). What I said might sound pessimistic but I'm sure there are ways out, there must be. The history of the armenians is full of tough times but we still exist, no?

Naira, to answer your question about the existence of black Armenians here is a funny story I heard when I was in Armenia 2 years ago. Two armenian girls are traveling in the paris metro when a huge but very decent and well dressed black man sits facing them. The girls immediately start talking with each other in armenian about the fact that black men are attractive but have a bad reputation of being violent uncivilized troublemakers(which I dont agree with) and that it is impossible to have serious longterm relationships with most of them. One of the girls says that if the guy was armenian she would not mind dating him since she is very much attracted to him, and so on the conversation develops to reach expressions implying sexual images and the girls laughing at the idea that the man has no hint of whats going on. Before the "terminus", the man takes out a pen and a piece of paper, writes his phone number and hands it to one of the girls by saying in armenian " yete bolor asatst jisht e uremn menk irar hamar enk sdeghzvel". The girl never called him! (I suppose) This story might have been exagerated and "modified" by the public, but apparently there have been mixed marriages (armenian-black) in ethiopia and the fruits were sometimes darker than usual. Besides I have personnaly encountered metisse children of black-armenian marriages. By the way I am new to this forum and happy to join it. I am from Canada and was surprised of hearing about the existence of such a forum. Hi to everyone!