Armenian Highlander

I like the following passage so much, I would like to repeat it again for your intellectual enjoyment: As a concerned Armenian: I do not want the government of Turkey to "ever" recognize the Armenian genocide. If it does so, I am confident that the entire Armenian population of the Diaspora will disappear into the pages of history within two or three generations. Unfortunately, for most of our brethren the "Hai Dat" is the only "psychological anchor" they have that maintains their Armenian identity. Moreover, I do not want the Turkish government to "ever" end its trade embargo against the Republic of Armenia. the Republic of Armenia needs to desperately emphasize trade and cooperation with Iran and Russia - not Turkey. Besides which, we Armenians really don't need the garbage produced within Turkey for the betterment of Armenia's economy. All sane economists within Armenia understand this. Opening Armenia's borders with Turkey can only benefit the Turkish nation and a few borniks within Armenia economically, and Washington and Tel Aviv, antagonists of Yerevan, strategically. Furthermore, I want the Turkish government to continue supporting Anti-Armenian terrorist nations such as Azerbaijan, Israel, Georgia and Chechnya - this is the only way to convince all Armenians that our nation's best interests are served by our nation's alliances with the Russian Federation and the Islmic Republic of Iran. There needs to be absolutely no talk about "coexistence" and/or "reconciliation" with Turks - it is absurd: besides the obvious fact that Turkey, unlike Armenia, is a relatively primitive nation with an Islamic Turkic heritage and a bloody past, Turkey has serious geo-political problems with virtually everyone of it's neighbors. Turkey has serious territorial disputes with Armenians, Greeks, Cypriots, Iraqis, Iranians and Syrians. Most importantly, however, is the fact that the Turkish state has a very terminal "internal" problem with its Kurdish population that, in essence, is a cancer that will eventually destroy it. Armenians and Turks are drastically different - socially, culturally, morally and genetically. Besides which, there can be no talk of our coexistence with Turks as long as our sacred lands are occupied by barbarians. There can be no talk of coexistence as long as the blood of our countless forefathers have not been avenged.

Oh, Fedix, your greatness, my exulted eminence, my venerable one of the ages. Why do you persecute me by stating that this thread is STUPID. With your permission Oh Fedix, I humbly ask you, oh kind sir, what is it that you dislike about this thread?

It is said that a picture coud be worth a thousand words. In this case, I agree. http://www.parev.am/PICTURES/7South/SouthMountain6.jpg

Bactrians are TURKS??? Mongols came in the 11th century??? Turks came in the 14th century??? And your the 'one' to ridicule my take on Armenian History??? Looking back at some of the outlandish remarks you have made regarding Armenian culture and history within this forum (and another forum), I can safely conclude that you: are either a bored teenager just looking to argue with someone, or a Turk - trying to be cute. If the former, instead of arguing with posters here, just observe and learn from them.

Putin, the Patriot Opinion; Posted on: 2004-09-17 01:09:36 That's why the neocons hate him – and love Chechen terrorists by Justin Raimondo With the recent downing of two planes over Russian airspace, now believed to be the result of a terrorist attack, and the horrific Beslan stand-off, in which women and children were butchered on the world stage and in living color, a curious double standard is asserting itself in the West, almost without argument or even much notice. The response to these attacks by Western leaders has been almost uniformly to put the onus of blame, not on the terrorists, but on Vladimir Putin, who is accused by, among many others, neo-connish "libertarian" Cathy Young, Reason magazine's resident New England schoolmarm and inveterate busybody, of "misusing" the Beslan incident. Putin has long been demonized by the neocons as an aspiring Stalin, and now he is being blamed for provoking and inflaming the Chechen terrorists by refusing to negotiate with them. Neocons Move Against Russia Source: http://www.nationalvanguard.org/index.php

As I previously said to an earlier poster, this Turkish web-site clearly reveals Turkic paranoia towards Armenians. Nevertheless, it also reveals the unique geo-strategic formulations of the region and the new alliances that are being formed today. This anti-Armenian, anti-Russian and anti-Persian propaganda conducted by Turks, similar to American propaganda today, is just trying to manipulate world opinion and prepare their populations for an up-coming conflict. I am afraid we are going to see a major international conflict before this decade is over.

Mr. Fedex... Oops, I mean Domino: You are not answering my question!!! Why do you think this thread is "STUPID"?

Let me clarify what I mean: Our ancestral homeland is the epicenter of world civilization - it is where civilized man first began to cultivate the land. We Armenians today are thus, the off-springs of the primordial tribes that first entered the pages of world history. And, we, their off-springs, have not stopped making history for over four thousand years. Our history is one long and bloody epic of resilience, endurance and creativity. I don't know why you cannot respect and enjoy your heritage, learn lessons from it and at the same time concentrate on the present and look to the future? Since you are rightfully concerned about the present, consider the following: Despite the war against Azerbaijan, the earthquake, the Turkish blockade, the Soviet collapse and Armenia's landlocked nature, the Republic of Armenia today records one of the highest economic growth rates within the region and is politically, socially and economically one of the most stable nations within the world today. Thus, think of the aforementioned before you despair over worthless Armenians acting like Mexicans. Despite Armenia's tiny land mass, small population and non-existent economy, Armenia with, no foreign, support soundly defeated a much larger Turkish foe that was even supplemented with mercenaries from Chechnya, Afghanistan and Ukraine. Think of the aforementioned before you think about Armenian weakness. Despite living amongst barbarians for close to a thousand years, we Armenian have the most refined national culture within the region and would confidently compete against any western nation within the field of creativity and intelligence. Think of the aforementioned before you think about Armenians not mounting to anything. Despite deep seated sociological and cultural differences between eastern and western Armenians (which were in essence fostered because of centuries of separation and, thereafter, the cold war), there are many Diasporan Armenian patriots worldwide that are positively impacting the Armenian Republic (instead of sitting in their houses and feeling sorry for themselves). Despite our ideological difference and different political approaches, we Armenian still collectively strive for what is best for our homeland. Since, Armenians like you enjoy comparing our nation to the wonderful Jews, do you know that there are dozens of religious and secular Jewish organization that do not even recognize the State of Israel? Moreover, do you know that there are dozens of Jewish organizations that call for pull out of Israeli settlements form Palestinian territories and actually send large amounts of money to displaced Palestinians? If you know of any Armenian organizations that call on the Armenian government to pull out of Artsakh, or send money to Azeris displaced in Baku, I ask you to forward me their information. Despite four thousand years of blood-shed and catastrophes, Armenian still exists. Let us see how long your beloved American culture is going to last. Thus, don’t compare Armenian to European nations or America, doing so is irrational and stupid to say the least. Despite hundreds of years of foreign subjugation, invasions, massacres and genocide, Armenia is a major geo-political factor within the Caucasus. Nevertheless, instead of comparing Armenia to major world powers to day let us learn from modern nations and form our historic experiences and apply them to the betterment of our homeland. Despite Armenia's post-Soviet economic collapse and subsequent social decay, Armenian science, academia and arts are still on par with any western nation. Armenians today, as in the past, are prominently represented upon every prominent musical stage, within every prominent art gallery, within every prominent scientific research center, within every prominent university, within every prominent sports field. Armenian national culture, history and national accomplishments, despite a thousand years of Turkic subjugation and isolation, is nothing but a miracle. Yet, we have Armenian like you today who only see Armenians acting like Mexicans and/or blacks. If you want to concentrate on the filth that is present within our society today, that which, incidentally, every society on earth suffers from, that is your prerogative. Nevertheless, doing so shows your self-hate and misplaced priorities. Just realize that it is not Armenians who act like street punks that are going to pass on our national culture to our future generations - its is concerned Armenians like you and I that is going to do that. Concentrate on the positive aspects of our nation and culture, put Armenia in a proper geo-political perspective, look at our great history and learn form it. Let's all build a better future for our children.

Be tolerant...??? I was attacked by some catman as soon as I posted my 'first' article!!! When I responded in kind, all kaka broke loose. Now I have members here foaming at the mouth every time I put up a post. I really don't understand you people here. I'am really a nice guy There I was happy-go-lucky minding my own business, enjoying Armenian history and culture, feeling big and happy, foolishly wanting to share it with fellow Armenians... then out of no where "whaaaaaaam" I get cold cocked by an otar. Its in my nature to be - and Nevertheless, I'm really a nice guy .

you, you, you mean... you mean... you... you.. thought that ... thought that... I, I, I, I, I, I... was one of de,de,de,de,de them.....?!?!?! Dude, dude, dude... Haha. You got me all wrong man... Who me??? Haha. A homo??? No. No. No. No way man, no way. I'm a ladies man, all the way. Yeah man that's it... A LADIES MAN!!! I, I, I, I really don't know where you got that k, k, k, k, k, crazy idea, man? <_< Obviously, you misread my comment. Please, let me try again to explain myself: it is 'said' by psychologists that those who portray homophobia (also those who portray violence against "voradou" people) may be subconsciously homosexuals themselves. I meant it as a joke... get it? getit? See, it was a joke man!!! I was kidding You see my friend, I was not trying to defend them. No. No. No. Heck, if it were up to me I'd, I'd, I'd.. well, let me just say, I would not defend them Hey wait a minute, that would mean that I... I... I... Oh heck, forget it, I don't know what the heck I'm talking about... I'm not a homosexual (voradou). I'M NOT A HOMOSEXUAL (VORADOU)!!! Wheew... I hope I cleared this meess up

You all are not placing the overall situation that existed within Anatolia in a proper perspective. Armenians did not have an experienced leadership nor foreign support. There were many reasons why Armenian politics of the time seemed submerged in incompetence and hopelessness. First; Armenians were caught off-guard because they did not see the Genocide coming. Second; Armenians did not see the Russian revolution coming, which in essence, forced the Russo-Armenian army to abandon the lands which had gained when they advanced as far west as Van. Third; Armenians did not foresee the western powers abandoning them in favor of gaining the sympathies of the Turks. Fourth, Armenians did not foresee the newly created Bolsheviks abandoning them in favor of gaining the sympathies of the Turks. Fifth; Armenia did not have an economy, no natural resources. Sixth; Armenian populated lands were devastated by famine and war. Seventh; the Armenian population was either scattered, killed or impoverished. Thus, due to dire historic circumstances, Armenians were in an untenable situation and did not have any real choices but to abandon the land to the Bolsheviks who were essentially the lesser of the two evils. Nevertheless, a handful of Armenians soldiers and peasants did manage to cleanse the Armenian Republic of Turks and Kurd and did manage to defeat a much larger Turkish force in 1918. We are being too condemning of our inexperienced leadership of the time who were essentially in an hopeless situation. Did our leadership make numerous mistakes? Of Course they did, they made many mistakes. However, we need to put this in a proper perspective: they did not have any foreign support; their tiny population was disease stricken and starving; they did not have proper diplomatic experience nor the international connections; and, finally, the land under their control did not interest any of the major powers. Nevertheless, it was because of them that the Armenian Republic was created and it was because of them that it did survive. Instead of condemning the leadership of the time, we need to learn from their mistakes so that we don't repeat them in the future.

Relax Tiger. Take a deep breath... Now... What are you talking about?

This went over my head, am I missing some thing?

Because patriotism is not genetically inherited - its an intellectual and spiritual enlightenment certain individuals have in their life times. Sort of being "born again" if you will .

Mr. Fedex: Why would you have banned me? Why do you consider this thread stupid? I am 'impatiently' waiting for your answers.

We are nothing??? We are nothing??? I really whish I have misunderstood what you are stating. However, what a twisted and absurd comment you have just made. I don't even know how to reply to that statement. As long as you continue feeling that way about your nation, you may just well end up mounting to nothing. God forbid these types of feelings accumulates in our people. Were does all this self-hate, self-pity, defeatist and destructive behavior come from? I am truly baffled... I have always met Armenian who differed from me ideologically, but never, in my entire life, have I been so exposed to such profound levels of self-hate as I am witnessing here within this forum. I just can't explain it. Regarding everything you stated: I couldn't disagree with you more. First of all: I am primarily concerned with "MY" version of history, all the other versions can go to hell. Name me another nation that is concerned about another nation's version of history. Don’t worry about other "versions" - first know your own, before you begin to concern yourself about others. Second: the reason why we Armenians are so marginalized today is primarily because for centuries Armenians essentially did not know their history, thus, did not know who they were. Great minority of Armenians of the Ottoman Empire were hopelessly Turkified, they differed from their non-Armenian counterparts solely by the "church" they attended. Any nationalism that there may have been within main-stream Armenian society of the time was promoted and preserved primarily by those who took the time out and studied their history and national culture. Third: you say lets "MAKE" history. I say, yes, lets make history, each to his/her abilities, that is what is expected of all concerned Armenians. However, using your logic - there maybe individuals like 'you' in the future who may say "what history" let's make our own history. There is absolutely no logic in this manner of thought, moreover, its self-defeating. Besides which, where would this type of an approach ideologically and rhetorically lead us...? In circles! It is absolutely absurd how people within this forum freak out and begin to foam at the mouth as soon as an Armenian displays pride in his/her heritage. You "bright lights" within society really think you are going to keep the Armenian spirit alive with this attitude - especially within the Diaspora? No, my friend, history is not just a story, its a "record" of where we have been and who we have been. Thus, it would be prudent to read the "record" that has been written in the blood of our countless warriors and saints in order to realize who you are and where you may be heading. It is a sad day in the Armenian Diaspora when we begin discussing such fundamental issues regarding our culture and identity. I have studied history most of my life and I take especial pride in my national culture. What's more, I am always seeking to share my pride and knowledge with fellow Armenians. Yet, I get ridiculed by fellow Armenians for being Armeno-centric. Listen, you don’t' have to like history, that mental defect is your personal problem, however, why are you ridiculing those that do? Yes, I am damn proud that it was through my ancestral lands that the world was civilized. What does this all mean to real world politics - absolutely nothing. But who said it need to anyway? Can a person have scholarly interest? My pride in my culture and my ancestral lands is intellectual and spiritual, why are you people foaming at the mouth? Nevertheless, Armenians who display no interest of who they are and where they have been are worthless as Armenian in my opinion. And such people would do us all a great favor if they quietly assimilated into their respective diasporan societies and refrain from poisoning our already vulnerable communities worldwide. What satisfaction do you people get when you belittle and marginalize your national culture and history?

Incidentally, why have some of you Caped Crusaders gone off topic? This thread addresses the 'futility' of discussing the Armenian Genocide with Turks and the futility of coexistence between Armenians with Turks. Yet, some of you 'bright-lights' are too busy attacking and swearing and ridiculing and belittling and antagonizing other Armenians. Some of you are esentially acting as pathetic as your grandfathers who cheerfully went to their slaughter. Is there anyone within this forum who can debate the intended thread topic without going hysterical or splattering crap all over their computer screens?

Does mother know you speak this way in public little Edward? And, you are a moderator...??? Little children like you need a good spanking.

That was actually funny. However, I am a bit concerned about you Mr. Edward. You are displaying signs of homophobia... You do know what they say about homophobes - don't you???

You have just succeeded in making an ass (vor) out of your self because I also thought of you as a patriotic Armenian. However, now, I am seriously beginning to reevaluate my 'favorable' impression of you <_< . Incidentally, I am not looking for 'virtual' friends and I have a very comfortable place within MY community - everybody just loves me .

Enker Artsakh: You seem to be one of the few true patriots within this forum.

http://www.parev.am/PICTURES/5Sevan/4IndexKarni.jpg Armenian Religion During the Pre-Christian Era Similar to all the pre-historic nations, Armenians, during their Pre-Christian era worshiped the nature, the elements, spirits, eponymous and other legendary heroes and a number of gods. We can divide the Armenian pre-Christian era into three periods. Period of nature worship: During this time, Armenians had nature gods and worshiped the elements. Consequently they worshiped.- The mountains. Armenia being mountainous, Armenians worshiped the mountains in a special way and particularly the volcanoes. Massis, Arakatz, Krkour, Gortuk, Nebad, Varak, Sipan and Nemrout are some of them. It is noteworthy that Armenians had devoted particular days of the months to the above mentioned "mountain-gods". The trees and the flowers. Special place among Armenians' nature gods had the poplar and the plane-tree. The worship of the plane-tree had a special significance for Armenians. In the valley of Mount Ararat (near Armavir city) a wood of plane-trees was planted, which unfortunately has not been preserved till nowadays. Armenians believed, that their priests (Kourms) could foretell the future or that they could communicate with the spirits of their ancestors by listening to the rustling of leaves. The offer of royal family boys to the plane-tree, called "sosanver", is also mentioned The water. Armenia also being full of water Armenians worshiped the very essential element for life, water. They worshiped the rain, the flood, the water spring, the river, the lake and the sea. The lakes Sevan and Van and the rivers Arax, Yeprad, Dikris, Tzorokh and Gour were some of the worshiped "nature gods". The animals. Some of the animals worshiped by Armenians are the sheep, the pig, the cow, the horse, the dog, the cat, the mouse, the frog, the eagle, the crane, the stork, the swallow, the chicken, the cock, the lion, the bear, the wolf, the bull and the snake or dragon. The sun and the moon. Armenians had so deep faith to the sun that even after their conversion to Christianity they continued worshipping the sun, for some time. The planets and the stars. Together with the sun and the moon, Armenians worshiped the rest of the planets of the solar system, naming the days of the week after them. Armenians worshiped also our galaxy -the Milky Way-, and the rainbow. During this period the Armenians paid their respects mostly in the forest. Period of spirits' and heroes' worship: In the following centuries the Armenians started worshipping invisible and imaginary spirits and heroes. According to the Armenians these spirits belonged to their ancestors and to various nature elements and they were distinguished to "good" and "evil". They lived in water or on land having human, animal or both human and animal appearance. "The Braves", were good spirits. The most famous of them were those who inhabited at the foot of Massis (an other name for Mt. Ararat) and were vengeful spirits against bad people. The Haralez (Arlez or Aralez), were good spirits, having dog-form appearance who, by licking the wounds of dead brave soldiers, brought them back to life. The Armenians continued worshipping the "Haralez"s for some time even after their conversion to Christianity. The Vishap (Dragon), was an evil and harmful spirit having various appearances.(Big snake, big fish) The Haverzahars, the nymphs, were good spirits protecting the women. They lived in beautiful places. Beside the mentioned spirits, the Armenians also worshiped others such as the.- Barig, Bai, Hamparou, Nhunk and Shahabed. In time, after the conversion to Christianity at 301AD, the spirits turned to either angels or demons. The Pagan period: During the 5th century BC Armenians adopted the Iranian form of these divinities and domesticated them. The principal gods Armenians worshiped were.- Aramazd, the father of the gods, the creator of the sky and the earth. Anahid, daughter of Aramazd, goddess of fertility and maternity, mother of all prudence and virtues. She was the favorite goddess of the Armenians. Her statue in Yeriza was golden. Vahakn, the god of fire, power and bravery. These three divinities constituted the "trinity". Mihr (of iranian origin), the son of Aramazd, god of light and sun. Dir, the god of rain. He was also the scribe of Aramazd and the messenger of the gods. He was mosthe messenger of the gods. He was most likely the god of literature, science and the recorder of man's deeds of good and evil. One of his duties was to record the dead and take them near Aramazd. Astghik, the goddess of water, beauty, love and fertility. She was the mistress of Vahakn. Armenians used to celebrate, in order to honor Astghik, they offered her roses (vart in Armenian - therefore the celebration was called "Vartavar"), they let doves fly and sprinkled water on each other. Armenians still celebrate "Vartavar", having adopted it to a christian custom. Nanne, daughter of Aramazd and the goddess of the sky, she Aramazd and the goddess of the sky, she represented the mind and the bravery. Parshamin (of syrian origin), the god of the sky and Vanadour, the god of germination and fruit bearing. During this period, Armenians built temples the "mehian"s. In these temples there were statues of the god or goddess for whom the temple was built, and in front of the statues there was the altar, called Pakin, where offerings were made to the god or goddess. There was also a special place called kantsaran (something more or less like a safe), where the gifts from the people were kept. The priests were called kourm. In Armenia there were a lot of temples. However, only seven of them were the most famous. Armenians gathered there every year to worship. Those are The Temple of Aramazd, in Ani and Pakavan, the Temple of Anahid, in Yeriza and Ardashad, the Temple of Mihr, in Pakaraidz, the Temple of Dir, in Yerazamuin, the Temple of Astghik, in Ashdishad, where there were also the Temples of Vahakn and Anahid, the Temple of Nane, in Til and the statue of Parshamin in Tortan. All these temples were ruined during the 4th century by St. Gregory the Illuminator. Source: http://www.ercole.net/hayaser/religion.asp

RUSSIAN-ARMENIAN MILITARY COOPERATION POSES THREAT TO SECURITY IN SOUTH CAUCASUS - AZERBAIJANI DEFENSE MINISTER The Azerbaijani Defense Minister was quoted not too long ago as saying: Russian-Armenian military cooperation has begun to pose a "real threat" to the entire South Caucasus. "The movement of a considerable amount of military equipment withdrawn from Georgia into Armenia seriously worries Baku. "Such actions by Russia are destabilizing the situation in the region, which is already fragile," the Defense Minister said. "This problem has existed for the past few years and has an extremely negative impact on the situation in the South Caucasus," the Defense Minister further stated. He further recalled that "the problem of the unsanctioned supply of Russian weapons worth over $1 billion to Armenia between 1993 and 1996 has still not been resolved." Baku "has more than once asked Russia to solve this problem," the Defense Minister said. "However, we do not see any actions from Russia in response. Moreover, over the past few years Russia has supplied additional modern weapons to Armenia and a new large aviation group has been formed," he said. According to the information provided to him, he said, a considerable amount of the Russian weapons and military equipment supplied to Armenia "is later moved to Azerbaijani lands (Nagorno Karabagh) occupied by Armenia."

RUSSIAN-ARMENIAN MILITARY COOPERATION POSES THREAT TO SECURITY IN SOUTH CAUCASUS - AZERBAIJANI DEFENSE MINISTER The Azerbaijani Defense Minister was quoted not too long ago as saying: Russian-Armenian military cooperation has begun to pose a "real threat" to the entire South Caucasus. "The movement of a considerable amount of military equipment withdrawn from Georgia into Armenia seriously worries Baku. "Such actions by Russia are destabilizing the situation in the region, which is already fragile," the Defense Minister said. "This problem has existed for the past few years and has an extremely negative impact on the situation in the South Caucasus," the Defense Minister further stated. He further recalled that "the problem of the unsanctioned supply of Russian weapons worth over $1 billion to Armenia between 1993 and 1996 has still not been resolved." Baku "has more than once asked Russia to solve this problem," the Defense Minister said. "However, we do not see any actions from Russia in response. Moreover, over the past few years Russia has supplied additional modern weapons to Armenia and a new large aviation group has been formed," he said. According to the information provided to him, he said, a considerable amount of the Russian weapons and military equipment supplied to Armenia "is later moved to Azerbaijani lands (Nagorno Karabagh) occupied by Armenia."

RUSSIAN-ARMENIAN MILITARY COOPERATION POSES THREAT TO SECURITY IN SOUTH CAUCASUS - AZERBAIJANI DEFENSE MINISTER The Azerbaijani Defense Minister was quoted not too long ago as saying: Russian-Armenian military cooperation has begun to pose a "real threat" to the entire South Caucasus. "The movement of a considerable amount of military equipment withdrawn from Georgia into Armenia seriously worries Baku. "Such actions by Russia are destabilizing the situation in the region, which is already fragile," the Defense Minister said. "This problem has existed for the past few years and has an extremely negative impact on the situation in the South Caucasus," the Defense Minister further stated. He further recalled that "the problem of the unsanctioned supply of Russian weapons worth over $1 billion to Armenia between 1993 and 1996 has still not been resolved." Baku "has more than once asked Russia to solve this problem," the Defense Minister said. "However, we do not see any actions from Russia in response. Moreover, over the past few years Russia has supplied additional modern weapons to Armenia and a new large aviation group has been formed," he said. According to the information provided to him, he said, a considerable amount of the Russian weapons and military equipment supplied to Armenia "is later moved to Azerbaijani lands (Nagorno Karabagh) occupied by Armenia."