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Ani Excavations By Marr.

#1 User is offline   DominO 

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 09:08 PM

Has anyone any informations about Nicholas Marr excavations at Ani? I havn't found that on your site. Are you aware of it?

I found out about it by accident in the book published in 1931, "An Introduction to Persian Art since the Seventh Century A.D" by Arthur Upham Pope; Scribner. People might ask, why the hell I was reading that book. Whatever. biggrin.gif

Here some relevent quotations, if you want everything between them just ask.

"How widespread the potter's art was at this time in Persia and yet how closely interrelated the different centres were has been forcibly shown by the recent excavations of Professor Nicholas Marr at Ani. Here in the old Armenian capital, many miles from Tabriz, the nearest famous Persian city, he found not less than a dozen different wares entirely in the style of Ray. The light turquoise is a little bluer than the pieces at Ray, but the others are to all appearances indistinguishable. One fragment of a lustre bowl perfectly in the style of Ray or Kashan might suggest that these pieces were all imported; but kilns were found too, and wasters, proof positive that they were made on the spot."

p.90

" The problem has, however, at last been taken out of the range of controversy by Professor Marr's discovery at Ani of a considerable group of porcelain fragments in the manner of one of the commonest types of Ray pottery, together with fragments and wasters of other typical Ray products. Undoubtedly all these wares, including the porcelain, were locally made, but the industry at Aniclearly represented an extension of the Ray style. Thus if porcelain was not actually made within the boundaries of Persia, it was at least made directly within the Persian cultural circle."

p.93

" In the course of some recent excavations at Ani,the ancient capital of Armenia, Professor Nicholas Marr of Leningrad recovered a large number of glass fragments, many of them richly enamelled. They were found along with pottery fragments, most of them indistinguishable from well-known types from Ray, and with kilns and wasters, sufficient proof that the pottery, at least, was made on the spot, evidently by Persian workmen. Professor Marr and Professor Orbeli of the Hermitage are satisfied that the enamelled glass also was a local product probably likewise made by Persian artisans.

Examples of all various types of glass have been found at Saveh, Aveh, and Nishapur. The fragments have not yet been properly assembled or studied. Indeed, it is really much too early to write any adequate account of mediæval Persian glass."

p.194


I think it is not surprising given the period that Armenians were considered as Persians, and their art as Persian art, since in those years Armenians were considered by many as a "type" of Persian.

I'm just reffering to this, because if there is a way to find some of the researchs of Marr, we might perhaps find copies of pictures or drawing of some Ani buildings now "reconstructed" or destroyed. Steve, if you know of that person, have you attempted to find his research?
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#2 User is offline   DominO 

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 09:27 PM

Hmmm... found some references in the forum of your site Steve. And up checking found out that Balakian already reffered to it in his first work(...dog of...), I was sure having heard of him somewhere.

But still, since I have already started the thread, here two other works that reffer to him.

"Archaeology in the U.S.S.R" by Mikhail Miller; F.A. Praeger, 1956

"N. Marr gained a reputation with his excavations of Ani, an ancient Transcaucasian town site. A. Ivanovski and E. Ressler performed excavations in the Transcaucasus."

p.30

There is a footnote for A. Ivanovski and E. Ressler.

" Ivanovski A., MAK, Vol. VI, Moscow, 1911; Ressler E., "O raskopkakh v Erivanskoi i Yelizavetpol'skoi gub. za 1901-1903 gg." [ Regarding the Excavations in the Erivan and Yelisavetpol' Gubernii in 1901-1903 ], Otchot IAK for 1901, St. Petersburg, 1903 and for 1903, St. Petersburg, 1906; see also Izvestiya IAK, Vol. XII, St. Petersburg, 1904."

p.176



Here another work, "History of the Byzantine Empire," 324-1453 Vol. 1 by S. Ragozin, A. A. Vasiliev; University of Wisconsin, 1928

"Until the recent great war the ruins of Ani were within the boundaries of Russia, and the Russian scholar, N. Marr,had devoted much time to a thorough study of them. His excavations have resulted in brilliant discoveries, highly significant not only for the history of Armenia and the civilization of the Caucasian peoples in general, but also for a clearer conception of Byzantine influence in the Christian East."

p.383

This post has been edited by Fadix: 27 July 2004 - 09:44 PM

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#3 User is offline   Arpa 

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Posted 27 July 2004 - 10:50 PM

QUOTE (Domino @ Jul 28 2004, 03:08 AM)
Has anyone any informations about Nicholas Marr excavations at Ani? I havn't found that on your site. Are you aware of it?

Where and how were you looking?

Did you not see this?
http://www.virtualan.../marr/index.htm

and this;
http://www.virtualan...story/part2.htm

BTW. Steve that church in "Alexandropol" modeled after those of Ani was hit by the Earthquake of 1988, not 1989. Also that town that was known as Leninakan until 1990 now is known as Gumri.
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#4 User is offline   bellthecat 

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:22 AM

Thanks Arpa - that 1989 will be 1988 asap (it is just a typing error, I have used the correct date elsewhere).

Marr was interested in pottery and similar "everyday" objects from Ani because he was interested in discovering information about the lives of ordinary people as opposed to just kings and queens and treasure. It was this sort of progressive outlook that enabled him to survive and ultimately prosper in the era of the Soviet Union, and he was one of the few academics from the Czarist period to do so.

I've heard of Pope's book - it is a massive, multi-volume thing (the one Domino mentioned might be an abridged version), but have not actually ever looked at it.

I don't see why there necessarily had to be "Persian" pottery and glass workers at Ani - I'm sure the Armenian population there were quite capable of copying and even refining imported Persian products.
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#5 User is offline   bellthecat 

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:25 AM

Also about MArr and the Ani excavations: The Excavations of 1905/1906: The Cathedral of King Gagik
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#6 User is offline   bellthecat 

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:30 AM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Jul 28 2004, 04:50 AM)
Where and how were you looking?

Probably searching for "Nicholas Marr" rather than Nikolai Marr. rolleyes.gif

Trouble is that there are so many ways of spelling his first name - including Nicolas, Nicolai, etc.
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#7 User is offline   DominO 

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:33 AM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Jul 27 2004, 10:50 PM)
Where and how were you looking?

Did you not see this?
http://www.virtualan.../marr/index.htm

and this;
http://www.virtualan...story/part2.htm

BTW. Steve that church in "Alexandropol" modeled after those of Ani was hit by the Earthquake of 1988, not 1989. Also that town that was known as Leninakan until 1990 now is known as Gumri.

I found it after I posted this thread.

The thing is that google didn't find any results pointing to Steves site so I assumed.


Steve, the reason why they were considered as Persians is because during that period many languists and historians were considering Armenians as a "type" of Persians. The huge "Les langues du Monde" published few decades ago gave some of the refferences about this belief.
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#8 User is offline   DominO 

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:34 AM

QUOTE (bellthecat @ Jul 28 2004, 08:30 AM)
Probably searching for "Nicholas Marr" rather than Nikolai Marr. rolleyes.gif

Trouble is that there are so many ways of spelling his first name - including Nicolas, Nicolai, etc.

Yep, that was why. smile.gif And the thing is that I remember having read those pages finaly.
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#9 User is offline   bellthecat 

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:42 AM

QUOTE (Domino @ Jul 28 2004, 02:34 PM)
Yep, that was why. smile.gif And the thing is that I remember having read those pages finaly.

And, on checking my meta tags I have discovered I have written "nocolas marr" rather than "nicholas marr" - which is probably why you found nothing.

Anther typo to correct! mad.gif tongue.gif
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#10 User is offline   bellthecat 

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 08:45 AM

QUOTE (bellthecat @ Jul 28 2004, 02:42 PM)
And, on checking my meta tags I have discovered I have written "nocolas marr" rather than "nicholas marr" - which is probably why you found nothing.

No - google gives nothing for "nocolas marr" - does google use the keywords meta tag I wonder?

Seems I will have to put the alternative spellings in the title bar for it to be found by search engines.
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#11 User is offline   Arpa 

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 09:05 AM

Steve, are you fmiliar with the series DOCUMENTI DI ARCHITETTURA ARMENA /Documents of Armenian Architecture, prepared and printed in Milan Italy. Number 12, 1984 is all about Ani.
There are some photographs, both in color and BW, assuming that the latter would be from late 19th or early 20th c.
The text is trilingual, Italian, English and Armenian.
I can furnish publisher's address if needed. I bought mine at the NAASR bookstore in Belmont Mass. My intention was to have all 24 (?) numbers a few at a time but somehow I lapsed. Some day I may resume, that is if they are still available. Other volumes are Haghbat, Aghtamar, Khachkar, Sanahin....and even Gharabagh(1988).
Of course, Marr is prominrntly acknowledged in the Ani edition.
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#12 User is offline   bellthecat 

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 09:10 AM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Jul 28 2004, 03:05 PM)
Steve, are you fmiliar with the series DOCUMENTI DI ARCHITETTURA ARMENA /Documents of Armenian Architecture, prepared and printed in Milan Italy. Number 12, 1984 is all about Ani.

I've got a copy - or rather a photocopy of it. I think it might now be out of print.

There is another book about Ani, published in Armenia in 2001 or 2002 I think - after a conference to mark the 1000th anniversary of the completion of the Ani Cathedral. But I have never seen it for sale anywhere in Europe or America (though presumably it is available in Armenia).
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#13 User is offline   bellthecat 

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 09:14 AM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Jul 28 2004, 03:05 PM)
Steve, are you fmiliar with the series DOCUMENTI DI ARCHITETTURA ARMENA /Documents of Armenian Architecture, prepared and printed in Milan Italy. Number 12, 1984 is all about Ani.

If a book / article about Ani is listed here http://www.virtualan...uk/booklist.htm then I have seen it. Plus a few extra I have still to add.
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#14 User is offline   Arpa 

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Posted 28 July 2004 - 09:22 AM

Yes.
I did jump the gun. After I wrote the above I did see that you had included said volume in your bibliography.
Good work!!
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