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#1 Arpa

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 12:35 PM

Note: I will post this under the subject topic of Diapora, since according to some I may know practically nothing about the church, and as far as Theology is concerned, I don't even know what that means. Is it a thesis written by the "theo-s", i.e gods? ;) :P
-------This is a ZORAKOCH, a call to arms. WE are starting a draft, a conscription, all able bodied, regardless of their their emotional and mental quotient are invited.
Ee Zen Hayer; An old patriotic song opens thusly.
Ee zen, Hayer, ee sour yev i hratsan,
Tajkahayastanits kochum e mi dzayn,
Lernits ler thndum e ahegh hraman,
Threq, hayer, threq depi Hayastan.
Depi, depi depi Hayastan,
Threq hayer, threq, depi Hayastan.
To arms Hayer, to sword and gun,
From Tajkahaysatan roars the sound,
From mountain to hill thunders the awful command
Soar high Hayer, fly to Hayastan.

(Tajkahayastan? Can there be any more idiotic oxymoron? Does that mean there is a Hayastan where the people are Tajik, i.e. Turks?)

We have heard everything we need to know about the the Armenian(Apostolic) Church. The latest of which by Axel. Many others by his soulmates.
No one has put Gregorian Armenians on a higher moral plane than Catholic or Protestant Armenians. We are not judging individuals here. We may express a critic of protestantism without implying that its followers (who are mistaken) are morally inferior.

One should also recall that those Armenians who were converted to catholicism or protestantism are the ones who created division in the first place.

The Armenian Apostolic Church is the only place where we may unite as a People


We have talked the talk. Wow! have we ever! Beran@s maz busav?
Is it now time to walk the walk, the march?

Here is another "zorakoch",

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.

At the sign of triumph Satan’s host doth flee;
On then, Christian soldiers, on to victory!
Hell’s foundations quiver at the shout of praise;
Brothers lift your voices, loud your anthems raise.

Refrain

Like a mighty army moves the church of God;
Brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod.
We are not divided, all one body we,
One in hope and doctrine, one in charity.


Onward Christian soldiers!
Let's start the march!
Please don't knock on my door since I tell those who knock on my door exactlt what that priest told the Jehovah's witnesses. I tell them that my people have known Jehovah, have been Christians 1700 years before they were even born. So, please don't knock on my door. There are so many doors to knock. The Azeri doors to the east, the Turtkish doors to the west, the Persian doors to the south, the Abkhaz doors to the north, to cite a few. Show us what kind of material you are made of, go preach to them. And when you take up your arms don't forget our long lost brothers and sisters in Hamshen. Click on the map below and see that Hamshen is less than 100 miles from Yerevan. You can walk there in one day. Or are the Hamshenites too "pghtsvats", soiled, desecrated to be taken back into the Apostolic Church.
Apostolic?
Which of the apostles was Armenian?
Click on the other URL below and tell us. Also tell us why the world at large insists that Thaddeus(Jude) and Bartholomew preached in India and were maryred there.

Onward Christian Soldiers!!!
March on, as far from me as you can.
Ee Zen Hayer!!
Go preach, conquer our lost lands. I am not lost. Stop preaching to me. Besides, I can bury you in Biblical quotes, both good and bad.

Map: Click on the desired area and observe how
close Hamshen and other Armenian enclaves are.

http://www.adiyamanl...ey/turk_map.htm

The 12 Apostles;
http://www.damascusf...evelation04.htm

#2 joseph parikian

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Posted 16 September 2003 - 10:16 PM

Arpa
God bless the breast that fed you
This is the best i ever heard from you
Did you read my mined :D :notworthy:

#3 Arad9

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 12:14 PM

Apostolic means a Church that was established by the apostles. Several apostles, including Saint Andrew (by Saint Epiphanius, Bishop of Cyprus) Saint Simon (also known as Canaanite, or Cananean, or Zealot) and Saint John the Evangelist, helped preach Christianity and cultivated it Armenia. Among the twelve the apostles Thaddeus and Bartholomew have been attributed to bringing Gospel of Jesus to Armenia, therefore are called the "First Illuminators," by the Armenians. Therefore, establishing the Armenian Apostolic Church. So with the Gospel brought to Armenia by the Apostles, the Armenians had their foundation of the Armenian Apostolic Church. We continue into the 2nd century where the second century African church father Tertullian already listed the Armenians among the people who had received Christianity, and the mid-third century letter of Bishop Dionysis of Alexandria to an Armenian bishop named Meruzanes which unequivocally indicates a sizable community. Therefore, by the 2nd Century A.D. Armenians already had some churches and at the least 1 bishop. Also I can go into the story of King Abgar. If you have any misunderstanding about the story, which you probably will, I can clarify it for you.

And here is a link for Thaddeus: http://www.saintjude...whoisstjude.htm

So hear is a little history lesson for you about the Armenian Church. If you want I can go into further details about the establishment of the Armenian Church prior to Saint Gregory.

Also last time I checked the Region where Thaddeus was martyred was in historical Armenia. Which now you say is India?? Who are the sources for that web site. I have heard Turkey(which was historical Armenia) and Northern Persia(which was historical Armenia as well)but I stick to Ormanians history of the Armenian Church which is said it that Thaddues was martyred at the foot of mount Ararat. If you want some Barthalomew history it would be my pleasure.

#4 gamavor

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Posted 17 September 2003 - 11:36 PM

Since in a " Ee Zen..." mood, this one is better!

Forward, immortals of a martyred race,
Armor of six centuries of unforgettable vengeance,
Upon the far mountaintops of our fatherland,
Let us go to plant the tri-colored flag.

Giant of dedication,
Fiery winged fleet,
Volunteer army,
Forward, forward firmly,
Forward unwaveringly,
Towards victory, victory.

The black blood of the evil ones irrigated our soil,
The exiled Armenian renewed his life,
Yesterday chained, today free,
Resurrected nobly from the obscure tomb.

Giant of dedication,
Fiery winged fleet,
Volunteer Army,
Forward, forward firmly,
Forward unwaveringly,
Towards victory, victory! :)


http://cilicia.com/a...sic_harach.html

#5 axel

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 05:54 AM

Well Arpa, I do not have the slightest respect for your neo-nazi völkisch/antisemitic views and, your contempt for our Christian History, I find utterly disgusting. :angry:

It is quite ironic though that you have not yet figured out your great pal MJ was a hrea. Speaking of opening one's eyes... MJ knows quite well what a fool you are. I don't think he has much respect for you.

#6 Arpa

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 07:42 AM

Yeah Gam!
Haraj NAHATAK!
I have no idea who those NAHATAKs are, but, please count me out as I will not be an ESH NAHATAK for any cause. I may be more useful as a shaheed(literally a witness , an akanates), not a NAHATAK. A nahatak can best be described as an idiot going towards his/her demise with a smile.

#7 axel

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 08:11 AM

You remind me of Smerdiakov, you know, the bastard son who commits parricide in the Brothers Karamazov.

#8 Azat

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 09:57 AM

Well Arpa, I do not have the slightest respect for your neo-nazi völkisch/antisemitic views and, your contempt for our Christian History, I find utterly disgusting. :angry:

It is quite ironic though that you have not yet figured out your great pal MJ was a hrea. Speaking of opening one's eyes... MJ knows quite well what a fool you are. I don't think he has much respect for you.

Axel, please watch what you say here against other members and I strongly recommend you reread the code of conduct again.

#9 Arpa

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 12:12 PM

Well Arpa, I do not have the slightest respect for your neo-nazi völkisch/antisemitic views and, your contempt for our Christian History, I find utterly disgusting. :angry:

It is quite ironic though that you have not yet figured out your great pal MJ was a hrea. Speaking of opening one's eyes... MJ knows quite well what a fool you are. I don't think he has much respect for you.

Axel, please watch what you say here against other members and I strongly recommend you reread the code of conduct again.


That's alright Azat. Name calling is a form of defeat and concession when all argumment has failed.
I am nevertheless glad to see Axel even though I would have much rather seen him and his army of "Christian soldiers" set their pulpit and soap box somewhere in Anatolia where people may not have seen this "movie" before. We have seen this "movie" over and over to the point of nausea. What he is in fact trying to do is selling "tomatoes to the farmer". I have news for him, these farmers have created the tomato and unless he has a new and improved one we are not interested.
Has Axel chosen his nickname to contrast it to us the "anxels"? Does he really think that we have not heard what he has to say? Or has he chosen that nickname in honor of Aksel(Bakunts)? If so he is way off the mark since Bakunts lost his life, he was martyred if you will beacuse he defied hierarchy, be they religious or doctrinal(communist). Aksel was the reincarnation of another martyr who lost his life for doing exactly the same. His name was Khachatur Abovian.

I don't deem it necessary to explain why I chose that particular URL of the "12Apostles" (above) among many, to stress my very point that while Axel and his buddies are trying to sell their rotten tomatoes to us there are those in the world who have no idea who and what the Armenian is, they have never heard our myths of the apostles having been martyred in the shadows of Ararat. What's more, they couldn't care less.
Is it not time for Axel and our fearless latter day apostles took their message to those who have not heard it? Of course, all we can do here is maybe laugh at them, but when they take their message to Turkey and Iran we may have to send UN peacekeepers to retrieve their lifeless bodies. Now, that is an apostle, not preaching on the internet to people who have already heard that message a million times. Why are they doing this. Next Sunday go to a church, any church, be it Armenian, Catholic. Methodist etc. and observe who the congregation is. Those at the Catholic church are all catholic, at the Armenian church, all Armenian. What are they listening to? Wouldn't it be better if the Armenian church were full of Turks hearing the word of Jesus? And so on.

Myths, myhts and more myths. The funny part is that we, only we end up believing the very myths and lies that we created in the first place.

According to Armenian sourcses Abcar became Christian in the year 207 AD. That is at leat 150 years after any of the original apostles was alive.

Here is an excerpt from the site below (among many)

http://www.newadvent...then/05282a.htm

The exact date of the introduction of Christianity into Edessa is not known. It is certain, however, that the Christian community was at first made up from the Jewish population of the city. According to an ancient legend, King Abgar V, Ushana, was converted by Addai, who was one of the seventy-two disciples. (For a full account see ABGAR.) In fact, however, the first King of Edessa to embrace the Christian Faith was Abgar IX (c. 206). Under him Christianity became the official religion of the kingdom. As for Addai, he was neither one of the seventy-two disciples as the legend asserts, nor was he the Apostle Thaddeus, as Eusebius says (Hist. Eccl., IV, xiii), but a missionary from Palestine who evangelized Mesopotamia about the middle of the second century, and became the first bishop of Edessa. (See DOCTRINE OF ADDAI.)

So what do you say Axel, will you write to us from Ankara and Tehran and let us know how many you have converted?
It is easy to comvert the already converted. Is not that what the missionaries did in the year 1846? (In case you don't know what that date is, it is the year the Ermeni Protestant Millet in Istanbul was recognized.)

PLease Axel, tell us something new like: "Ankara has just declared Christianity as state religion and Armenian has been designated its official language". If not, we have better things to worry about than which is better Apostolic, Catholic, Muslim or Shamanism.
Axel, tsav@d tanem.
You are going through a stage of crisis, you are quetioning some dctrines and trying to convince yourself that you are not the only one falling for myths, and in the process your strategy is; "If I can convince one other person then I can be sure I am not the only one". We all go through that, most of us survive as you can see in this forum, you will too.

#10 axel

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 12:32 PM

To clarify things, I am half armenian/half french

axel comes from the novel Axël by Villiers de l'Isle Adam , a french author I have some admiration for.

my dad always tells me "ech@ ech g@ m@na". I think I will listen to his good advice and not waste anymore time with you.

ps: no problem Azat. this conversation is over as far as I am concerned.

Edited by axel, 18 September 2003 - 12:32 PM.


#11 MJ

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 01:49 PM

Why do I heave a sneaking suspicion that when explaining the nature of the “esh” Axel’s father is addressing his son?

#12 Boghos

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 02:23 PM

axel comes from the novel Axël by Villiers de l'Isle Adam

Nowadays known as the Isle of Man ? :D

#13 Arpa

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 02:30 PM

Why do I heave a sneaking suspicion that when explaining the nature of the “esh” Axel’s father is addressing his son?

MJ, you ESHEK! :) :)
In case some are wondering, that means "little donkey" and it is an endearing term. One of the very first Armenian words my children learned, and they still use it, except that we use "ishuk".
Yes, "esh/eshek" is an Armenian word and the Turks acknowledge it. To know why we use the word so often read Raffi's Khent where every other cliche and parable uses the donkey as the model.
As to Axel, as I indicated in my previous post, he sounds like the typical teenager who is trying to discover his heritage and sort out fact from fantasy. Tragically, as he states he has very limited knowledge of Armenian culture, what he knows he may have learned from his father who, in turn may have learned his culture from..... you guessed it.... the Church. I tried to be as gentke on him as I could. The Turks may have had a better idea in converting our churches to cattle stables and barns. As long as we insist building churches and propagating myths and lies instead of building libraries based on empirical and scientific histriography our youth will not know anything about us except that "we are the first Christians". The hell with it. How many lumas have we gained by that!!??

PS. As you may have noticed Axel had no idea who Aksel Bakunts is. Typical!
I intend to start a thread on Aksel. There is very precious little about him, maybe you can contribute.

#14 MJ

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 02:43 PM

MJ, you ESHEK! :) :)
In case some are wondering, that means "little donkey" and it is an endearing term. One of the very first Armenian words my children learned, and they still use it, except that we use "ishuk".
Yes, "esh/eshek" is an Armenian word and the Turks acknowledge it. To know why we use the word so often read Raffi's Khent where every other cliche and parable uses the donkey as the model.
As to Axel, as I indicated in my previous post, he sounds like the typical teenager who is trying to discover his heritage and sort out fact from fantasy. Tragically, as he states he has very limited knowledge of Armenian culture, what he knows he may have learned from his father who, in turn may have learned his culture from..... you guessed it.... the Church. I tried to be as gentke on him as I could. The Turks may have had a better idea in converting our churches to cattle stables and barns. As long as we insist building churches and propagating myths and lies instead of building libraries based on empirical and scientific histriography our youth will not know anything about us except that "we are the first Christians". The hell with it. How many lumas have we gained by that!!??

PS. As you may have noticed Axel had no idea who Aksel Bakunts is. Typical!
I intend to start a thread on Aksel. There is very precious little about him, maybe you can contribute.

Arpa,

Is that something "paghakshkakn" in your lexicon? ;)

#15 Arpa

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 02:49 PM

MJ, you  :) :)

Arpa,

Is that something "paghakshkakn" in your lexicon? ;)

BIngo!!! Exactly!!!

#16 MJ

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 02:51 PM

Sorry, meant to say "paghaqshakan."

#17 Arad9

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 08:04 PM

Well Arpa I can honestley say that I am enjoying this discussion

First of all why didn’t you address the origins of the Armenian Church I brought up? You seem to have addressed other parts of my comments but not this part. It is relative to Thaddeus is it not?

I don't deem it necessary to explain why I chose that particular URL of the "12Apostles" (above)



In all fairness I understand your point, but why not explain it. So you have read contrary statement regarding Thaddeus and his martyrdom. So to you Thaddeus was martyred in India, for example. Why is it ok for you to believe other sources and not the Armenian? Just because some other religious group wrote about it? How about the historians that had problems with the Armenian’s like the Byzantine’s who wanted to basically remove all the Armenian elements from the Armenian Church? And, if to your reasoning Thaddeus wasn’t martyred in Armenia does this make a difference of Her origins and doctrine?


Among many, to stress my very point that while Axel and his buddies are trying to sell their rotten tomatoes to us there are those in the world who have no idea who and what the Armenian is. they have never heard our myths of the apostles having been martyred in the shadows of Ararat. What's more, they couldn't care less.


Is it not time for Axel and our fearless latter day apostles took their message to those who have not heard it?


There are Armenians who have no idea who and what an Armenian is outside of Genocide. Don’t you agree? Which is one of my disappointments, my Great Grandfather was one of General Antranig’s commanders and personal friend, I don’t think he had the victimization mentality that Armenians have today.




Is it not time for Axel and our fearless latter day apostles took their message to those who have not heard it?
Of course, all we can do here is maybe laugh at them, but when they take their message to Turkey and Iran we may have to send UN peacekeepers to retrieve their lifeless bodies.

Now, that is an apostle, not preaching on the internet to people who have already heard that message a million times.
Is it not time for Axel and our fearless latter day apostles took their message to those who have not heard it?

That's alright Azat. Name calling is a form of defeat and concession when all arguments has failed.


Who is name calling now? Touché



I will finish up my comments and corrections to your post in the later.

#18 gamavor

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Posted 18 September 2003 - 10:29 PM

Let me bring some fresh insights to the micro-climate in this tread:

The Pope is delivering his annual homily to the believers starting with the words:

Tuti homini - All the people, - but then some feminist's catholic groups complained saying that "Tuti homini" is too macho, since "home" means male. On the next year the Pope taking into consideration the protests started his prayer with the words "Tuti homini and femini". Then some homosexual groups started complaining that this is not fair, since their representatives are excluded from the Catholic Church. On the third year the Pope stared with the words "Tuti homini, tuti femini and tuti fruti...!"
:)

#19 axel

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 02:23 AM

Sireli MJ,

It would degrading for me to insult someone who doesn't know the meaning of the words oxymoron/pleonasm.

#20 Arad9

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Posted 19 September 2003 - 10:03 AM

Axel-Hang in there Buddy! :D


Myths, myths and more myths. The funny part is that we, only we end up believing the very myths and lies that we created in the first place.
According to Armenian sourcses Abcar became Christian in the year 207 AD. That is at leat 150 years after any of the original apostles was alive.


Please let me know where you got the above information from, because I would like to correct the author of it.

I recommend reading Movses Khorenatsi’s account since it is the actual Armenian source.

http://www.ccel.org/...#P10524_3318454

There a list of kings named Abgar starting from the time of Christ.

15. Abgar (V) Ukomo Bar Ma’nu (III) (4 B.C.-7 A.D.)
16. Ma’nu (IV) Bar Ma’nu (III) Saflul (7-13 A.D.)
17. Abgar (V) Ukomo (second time) (13-50 A.D.)
18. Ma’nu (V) Bar Abgar (V) Ukomo (50-57 A.D.) *
19. Ma’nu (VI) Bar Abgar (V) Ukomo (57-71 A.D.)
20. Abgar (VI) Bar Ma’nu (VI) (71 -91 A.D.) **
21. Abgar (VII) Bar Ezat (109-116 A. D.) ***

And I am happy that you included this link but you left you this part in your quote

http://www.newadvent...then/05282a.htm

It was at first more or less under the protectorate of the Parthians,


It is easy to comvert the already converted. Is not that what the missionaries did in the year 1846? (In case you don't know what that date is, it is the year the Ermeni Protestant Millet in Istanbul was recognized.)


If you read the history of Protestant missionaries in eastern Turkey you will see that they were not suppose to convert the Armenians. And this was a strict order! The missionaries were suppose to support and evangelized the Armenians. It was the Protestants that broke the agreements written by there own church, and started teaching that the Armenian Church is wrong and converting the Armenians.
You can read about it more if you want, there is a book written by Vahan H. Tootikian is a Armenian Evangelical minister.


So then Arpa I ask you, what do you believe? Do you believe in the Armenian Church(and there is only one)? Do you believe what She has stood for for 2000 years?




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