I have this muslim afghani friend studying with me in England. He is a good guy, i like him. Once we were arguing about should women study or not. He was on the side of these Taliban wahhabis. Myself, i am a bit strict as well about women(sisters, daghters) wearing skirts, having relations with man before marriage etc.
But i was arguing with him, and said that it is too extreme, he was like: not it is not... And I asked him, if you would have a wife, and suddenly she gets sick with women's illness, Who would you liketo be her doctor, a man or a women. I meant who he'd like to check her a man or a woman. He answered: of course woman! And my rection was, then how do you expect there to be female doctors if they are not allowed to be educated. The guy was: damn man, i have never thought of that. : )) funny staff.
Artur
Basic Islam
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, Feb 07 2001 07:08 PM
87 replies to this topic
#42
ThornyRose
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Posted 29 September 2001 - 10:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Artur:
The guy was: damn man, i have never thought of that. : )) funny staff.
Originally posted by Artur:
The guy was: damn man, i have never thought of that. : )) funny staff.
Funny, indeed - but it is also terribly sad. He is one (and he is getting an education!) - there are millions like him, all because they have been given ready answers that they have been told not to question...
#43
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Posted 29 September 2001 - 10:59 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bellthecat:
quote:
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Originally posted by Thorny Rose:
There is much more to Islam than the Qur'an, is there not?
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Is there? I get the impression that there is not - that the fundamentalists say the Qur'an contains everything anyone could ever need.
Originally posted by bellthecat:
quote:
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Originally posted by Thorny Rose:
There is much more to Islam than the Qur'an, is there not?
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Is there? I get the impression that there is not - that the fundamentalists say the Qur'an contains everything anyone could ever need.
That is their own mistake, for where do they think they get the stuff for the stoning to death and all? They do say that the Qur'an has it all, but, at the same time, little children are taught that the fundamentals of Islam are in the Qur'an and the ahadeeth (sayings of the prophet Mohammad).
quote
The Five Pillars of Islam? Will they do?'Zactly.Of course there are Christian fundamentalists that say the same sort of thing about the bible, but they do not go around smashing TVs and cameras because they are not in the bible, or forcing people not to shave because shaving was not the fashion in 30AD!
quote:
quote:
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I have contempt for those who claim that the Qur'an must be interpreted by the ulema and then only presented to the people - what do you expect from a set of beliefs that decrees so? The people then are in the hands of the clerics - no need to read it and think for yourself!
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But isn't that the problem - Islam is full of little freaks and madmen who think they have the unchecked authority to say what is correct Islam and what is not. At least in Christianity (real Christianity, not the wishwashy "I don't go to church but believe in god" so-called Christians or their moronic fundamentalist counterparts) there are fundamental statements that a believer must believe in.
quote:
Does Islam have something like this:
"I believe in one God, Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God; begotten of the Father before all ages; Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten, not made, of One Essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made: Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from Heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became Man: And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried: And He rose on the third day according to the Scriptures: And ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father: And He is coming again with glory to judge the living and the dead; And His Kingdom will have no end: And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of the Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is equally worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets: And in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the Resurrection of the Dead; And the life of the Age to come.
Amen."
Even I am a tiny bit envious of something with this clarity and certainty!
It is long - and says pretty much very little, really. It is like the shahadah of Islam (only that is about three clauses or so long!)...Does Islam have something like this:
"I believe in one God, Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible: And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God; begotten of the Father before all ages; Light from Light, True God from True God, begotten, not made, of One Essence with the Father, through Whom all things were made: Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from Heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became Man: And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried: And He rose on the third day according to the Scriptures: And ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father: And He is coming again with glory to judge the living and the dead; And His Kingdom will have no end: And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of the Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is equally worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets: And in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the Resurrection of the Dead; And the life of the Age to come.
Amen."
Even I am a tiny bit envious of something with this clarity and certainty!
quote:
quote:
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As for Mecca - I think Richard Burton is the only known non-Muslim (or is the truth different??) to have entered it!
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I think he was the first to enter and leave and live to tell the tale!
He has described the Kaa'ba accurately, yes? Great guy, nonetheless...
quote:
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As for Mecca - I think Richard Burton is the only known non-Muslim (or is the truth different??) to have entered it!
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I think he was the first to enter and leave and live to tell the tale!
#44
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Posted 30 September 2001 - 11:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mankun:
According to what I know, he went in disguised as a Muslim believer.
Originally posted by mankun:
According to what I know, he went in disguised as a Muslim believer.
That is what we ALL know. Some, however, question a few things (exactly on what basis, I don't know - just heard a few hypotheses - and one is about the probability of his having converted to Islam)...
#45
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Posted 30 September 2001 - 11:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by mankun:
another problem with Qur'an is that it must only be truly comprehended in its original Arabic. This leaves out the hundreds of millions of non-Arabs (most of them are illiterate too).
If it were only that! One must read the Qur'an as many times over as they can in a life-time, but only to listen to the interpretation of "authorities" - how else do you think they can sway so many people with their fatwas?Originally posted by mankun:
another problem with Qur'an is that it must only be truly comprehended in its original Arabic. This leaves out the hundreds of millions of non-Arabs (most of them are illiterate too).
quoteYep, "sanitized" is right - but you get something different from what you have in the West and in a few countries like Turkey (boy, are people lulled here) when you go elsewhere in the Middle East.I have heard many interpretations of "jihad." Of course, you hear its sanitized version among modern educated Islamic scholars in the West.
#46
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Posted 30 September 2001 - 11:21 AM
By the way!
All of those things are great! (((:
quote:
Originally posted by Artur:
Myself, i am a bit strict as well about women(sisters, daghters) wearing skirts, having relations with man before marriage etc.
Originally posted by Artur:
Myself, i am a bit strict as well about women(sisters, daghters) wearing skirts, having relations with man before marriage etc.
All of those things are great! (((:
#47
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Posted 30 September 2001 - 04:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Thorny Rose:
By the way!
All of those things are great! (((:
Originally posted by Thorny Rose:
By the way!
All of those things are great! (((:
What do you mean? Are you married?
#48
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Posted 03 October 2001 - 03:37 PM
HAMBURG, Germany (AP) -- Some 200 worshippers listened raptly as the imam at al-Quds mosque delivered a fiery 45-minute sermon on the sins of the infidels and the arrogance of the West.
"God, we implore You to destroy the United States of America," shouted the imam.
Not a soul flinched. The congregation recited in unison, "Amen."
...
http://www.canoe.ca/...hamburg-ap.html
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Is this Basic Islam? I do not go to church but am almost certain that other mainstream religious leaders never say these kinds of words in church.
"God, we implore You to destroy the United States of America," shouted the imam.
Not a soul flinched. The congregation recited in unison, "Amen."
...
http://www.canoe.ca/...hamburg-ap.html
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Is this Basic Islam? I do not go to church but am almost certain that other mainstream religious leaders never say these kinds of words in church.
#49
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Posted 03 October 2001 - 04:28 PM
Azat, don't take it as a surprise. These people are upset what the US done to them.
What about Turkey? When there are some buldings bombed in Turkey or politicians taken hostages or killed, armenians celbrate. The men who do it become heros, heros of armenian people. It is all because of anger towards Turkey, because they killed more than a million innocent people. Now, what the US done to Iraqi people, and to many other muslim countries breach nothing but anger. They bombed Yugoslavia, destroyed the infrastructure, supported Albanian separatists, who now atack Macedonia. And people who are upset from muslims, who lost relatives were celebrating what happened in the US on sept 11.
I can understand these people, but i won't support what they've done. And that is unforgivable.
But look at the USA... they are terrorists themself. They think they are at the top of the world, trying to intervene every problem on the earth. Punish everyone being wrong in their own eyes...
And there will be more terrorist acts, after afghani war (if it starts), because there will be more upset people. Even if they destroy the Taliban resime, there are kids who will never forget it. And that's the same case with Armenian Genocide. And i can understand them.
And it is not about religion, it is about anger, it is about mistakes the US done, and paid for it in such a terrible way.
[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Artur ]
What about Turkey? When there are some buldings bombed in Turkey or politicians taken hostages or killed, armenians celbrate. The men who do it become heros, heros of armenian people. It is all because of anger towards Turkey, because they killed more than a million innocent people. Now, what the US done to Iraqi people, and to many other muslim countries breach nothing but anger. They bombed Yugoslavia, destroyed the infrastructure, supported Albanian separatists, who now atack Macedonia. And people who are upset from muslims, who lost relatives were celebrating what happened in the US on sept 11.
I can understand these people, but i won't support what they've done. And that is unforgivable.
But look at the USA... they are terrorists themself. They think they are at the top of the world, trying to intervene every problem on the earth. Punish everyone being wrong in their own eyes...
And there will be more terrorist acts, after afghani war (if it starts), because there will be more upset people. Even if they destroy the Taliban resime, there are kids who will never forget it. And that's the same case with Armenian Genocide. And i can understand them.
And it is not about religion, it is about anger, it is about mistakes the US done, and paid for it in such a terrible way.
[ October 04, 2001: Message edited by: Artur ]
#50
edward demian
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Posted 03 October 2001 - 07:35 PM
So let get this straight.
One of the lemurs chants Jihad and all the the other lemurs follow him over the precipice.
Could you give us all that chant again.
One of the lemurs chants Jihad and all the the other lemurs follow him over the precipice.
Could you give us all that chant again.
#51
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Posted 05 October 2001 - 02:08 AM
Well said Artur, and I fear what the US and its 'Allies' are about to do will only make things worse. And the US has no real allies, when its economic dominance is gone so will its allies for past mal-treatment and arrogance. I would even say that 90% of the world population (outside the US) dislike for one reason or another the US government.
'The leader of the free world', my buttocks.
'The leader of the free world', my buttocks.
#52
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Posted 05 October 2001 - 03:47 PM
Artur - It may be true that Armenians were happy when something negative happens to Turks. If so than I am very saddened by it. It makes me cringe when I hear that someone could possibly celebrate the death of another person.
However my surprise was that CHURCH leaders were saying the above and I am 99.9% certain that it would not happen in other mainstream churches. Am I wrong?
Juggernaut - This thread is not the place to discuss this, but why is America so evil. Everyone kisses US ass when they need our money, but they all bitch about us when they get it. (this includes Armenia/Armenians)
We gave so much money to that part of the world, but nobody remembers it. We were even the largest donors of money to Afghanistan(140 million last year and 320 this)
However my surprise was that CHURCH leaders were saying the above and I am 99.9% certain that it would not happen in other mainstream churches. Am I wrong?
Juggernaut - This thread is not the place to discuss this, but why is America so evil. Everyone kisses US ass when they need our money, but they all bitch about us when they get it. (this includes Armenia/Armenians)
We gave so much money to that part of the world, but nobody remembers it. We were even the largest donors of money to Afghanistan(140 million last year and 320 this)
#53
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Posted 05 October 2001 - 10:54 PM
quoteEveryone kisses US ass when they need our money
They kiss ass, because they have NO CHOICE. If they dont then the US would do to them what they did to Yugoslavia (Kosovo), Russia (Chechnya), Indonesia (East Timor, Aceh) and half-a-dozen other places.
quotebut they all bitch about us when they get it.
Your preatty naive, do you think the US just gives away money for no reason? Ever heard of LOANS and INTEREST? Most of these loans also have 'stings attached'. And whatever aid is given for free is usually food, which is surplus US farmers production sent abroad so as to keep local prices up and the farmer lobby happy (plus the propaganda value).
quoteWe gave so much money to that part of the world, but nobody remembers it.
Read above.
quoteWe were even the largest donors of money to Afghanistan
Are you saying the US sent aid to Taliban? I doubt it, maybe in terms of surplus food, but not money.
#54
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Posted 06 October 2001 - 12:51 PM
Azat jan, i explained you why people think that US is evel. It is not because of envy, it is because of their politics. The things the US government does is terrible. They try to intervene every problem and solve it in its own way...
About Afghanistan, 20 years ago, it was the US who "created" Talibans. They were the one who supported them. They helped them financially and with weapons. The soviet government fought with them, and the US tried to turn it to Vietnam war, by helping the Taliban.
And there is nothing to doubt. The Taliban came to power because of help which came from the west. The world was against "aggresion" of the USSR against Afghanistan.
About, Ben Laden, i don't think he was the one who organised it. But i am sure he knew, and if he did know about it, surely he earned another couple of dozens of million dollars.
About church, i dont think that something like that would happen, but some people are really upset. However, all ASALA members are heros of Armenia, and they were burried according to armenian traditions and to church. And many people, including me, supports their actions.
[ October 06, 2001: Message edited by: Artur ]
About Afghanistan, 20 years ago, it was the US who "created" Talibans. They were the one who supported them. They helped them financially and with weapons. The soviet government fought with them, and the US tried to turn it to Vietnam war, by helping the Taliban.
And there is nothing to doubt. The Taliban came to power because of help which came from the west. The world was against "aggresion" of the USSR against Afghanistan.
About, Ben Laden, i don't think he was the one who organised it. But i am sure he knew, and if he did know about it, surely he earned another couple of dozens of million dollars.
About church, i dont think that something like that would happen, but some people are really upset. However, all ASALA members are heros of Armenia, and they were burried according to armenian traditions and to church. And many people, including me, supports their actions.
[ October 06, 2001: Message edited by: Artur ]
#55
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Posted 06 October 2001 - 01:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Artur:
However, all ASALA members are heros of Armenia
Originally posted by Artur:
However, all ASALA members are heros of Armenia
By targeting Turkish civilians, eh?
#56
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Posted 06 October 2001 - 01:17 PM
Thorny, the topic is basic Islam... ))
By the way, do you want me to hoock you up with my friends in turkey or not? ) Don;t worry your future husband won't find out... it'll be confidential... ))
And for the question: no. She will pray to God for my soul to go to heaven, and i'll be happy to die so fast.
By the way, do you want me to hoock you up with my friends in turkey or not? ) Don;t worry your future husband won't find out... it'll be confidential... ))
And for the question: no. She will pray to God for my soul to go to heaven, and i'll be happy to die so fast.
#57
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Posted 06 October 2001 - 01:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Thorny Rose:
By targeting Turkish civilians, eh?
Originally posted by Thorny Rose:
By targeting Turkish civilians, eh?
Yes!!! 60-70 per cent of people died in genocide were women and children! I don;t care about fedayis, they are born to die, but it is out of limit to kill a little child and attack a woman!
#58
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Posted 06 October 2001 - 01:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Artur:
Yes!!! 60-70 per cent of people died in genocide were women and children! I don;t care about fedayis, they are born to die, but it is out of limit to kill a little child and attack a woman!
Originally posted by Artur:
Yes!!! 60-70 per cent of people died in genocide were women and children! I don;t care about fedayis, they are born to die, but it is out of limit to kill a little child and attack a woman!
The barbaric practice of eye-for-an-eye is very attractive for Christians?
#59
Anahid Takouhi
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Posted 06 October 2001 - 05:06 PM
Not as much as it is for turks like you.
#60
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Posted 06 October 2001 - 06:41 PM
Even though I must say I respect the ASALA and their members for their bravery, I dont think their actions will better our position. These days its all about world public opinion and terrorism is not seen in a very positive light.
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