242 replies to this topic

[Sasun]

Axel, great observations. I very much agree with you, especially in your later post.
I believe there are no absolute atheists, or maybe very few close to absolute. Those few would be like monsters. If you do not recognize and appreciate in any direct or indirect way the existence of God then you must be inhumane also, in other words a monster. The degree of lack of morality could serve as a measure for ones degree of atheism. So, if someone has chosen the lifestyle and philosophy of an atheist that doesn't mean he/she is atheist.

BTW, I once called myself atheist then I came to realize that I was not really an atheist Some "atheists" say they don't believe in God but they believe there is something supernatural, or something else of that sort. Why, one could wonder, not regard that something as God or part of God?
The thing is, God is so big that human mind can never understand and recognize as it is. For that we are given souls and spiritual introspection. The fact that we have brains doesn't mean that's the only way to learn. I wonder if what we perceive as Faith is stored in the brain like ordinary information, or has to do with the soul.

Scientists and all thinkers in that category should not waste their time trying to prove or disprove the existence of God. It is only a matter of Faith for ordinary people, and for very few illuminated individuals it is a matter of their own experience (God realization) and unity with God.

[THOTH]

I am an Atheist. I have no faith or belief in "God" or gods per se (except as we create them).

How dare you call me a monster. you must be inhuman.

PS - What is the supernatural?

[Sasun]

THOTH, I don't want to repeat what Axel said, but I will clarify: if you have no feeling of love, compassion, hope, respect, appreciattion, etc., if you do not accept morality in your life in any way, if you do not care about other people, if you do not want justice, if you... then you are an Atheist. These are qualities attributed to God. I have not met or heard of such a person. This is the way I understand. If you call yourself an Atheist that is fine, but that is not what I mean. Call it a difference of definition. Just to give you an idea. All humans have shares of good and evil, that's what makes them human. So if an individual has no degree of "good" or no degree of "evil" then he/she does not qualify as human. That would make either a monster or a saint.

Supernatural is something that cannot be explained by natural laws, i.e. materialistic laws. For example, some people believe that the universe was created by a supernatural force, a force that was outside of space and time. Some people believe that Jesus actually existed and performed miracles but it had nothing to do with a god, he was simply a person that had supernatural powers. Or, psychic powers of people, if taken seriously, are regarded as supernatural powers. Things like that...

The bottomline is, you either believe or not. I can't prove you anything.

[Sip]

Dear Sasun, no one seems to be trying to prove or disprove anything. I am just trying to understand which "dictionary" you and axel seem to be using.

My dictionary, once again, says:

I completely fail to see how you make the jump from that definition all the way to lacking love, hope, respect, appreciation, compassion, hope, etc etc etc.

I am with Thoth on this.

I do NOT believe in any supernatural God. Certainly nothing as big as you seem to claim. However, I LOVEmy computer. I respect Thoth. I appreciate an all-you-can-eat buffet more than you can imagine, and I hope I make my point clear

Cheers!

[Sip]

On second thought, I may have misunderstood. I think you are saying not having all those implies being an Atheist. That may be .. I am not sure. But are you also saying that being an Atheist implies the other stuff (lacking that entire list)? Because that is the direction I disagree with you not the way you have phrased it in that sentence.

[ January 13, 2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Sasun]

Dear Sip, you are right, it seems that Axel and I are not using the dictionary definition of the word "atheist" (although I cannot speak for Axel)
I will write on this later...

[hyebruin]

Hmmm? just wondering which part of my 'formulations' are vague? I was not trying to formulate anything??? just expressing how I perceive the universe (and I am definitely NOT talking from an atheist point of view)...to hold the views I do is contrary to being an atheist...on the other hand I'm not a "go to church every Sunday" kind of person either I'm glad you pointed out the psychic/new age...first of all we are ALL psychic...even the atheists and the nonbelievers among us...some of us are more keen as far as this sense goes because we have chosen to...simply listen to it in our hearts with intuition; more importantly though, some people are born with this gift,but we all have the blueprint to develop it...(it's like someone working harder to get better at math vs. someone who is a natural wiz!)~~~~~~~another point I wanted to make: this 'new age' stuff as people classify it has its roots and its origins in 'old wisdom'...what I am proposing is that we stop calling ourselves 'new age thinkers' or 'atheists' or 'agnostics' or 'theophobes'...when we get caught up in definitions we misdirect our energy by trying to 'define' what words mean...spirituality and a higher level of peace and serenity CANNOT be understood or 'analyzed' by language...and anyone who claims they can is either lying or is misguided! it's that simple! Can earthly love be explained in words? maybe poets attempt...but the answer is NO! So now the real question becomes what does one believe and how strongly does one feel in touch with the universe? all else is an illusion...a product of the mind/intellect...

[Sasun]

The dictionary definition of atheism doesn't say much, its a simple definition. It gives no explanation of the concept.

There is atheist and Atheist. We can look at it in different ways, depending on how we perceive God.
1) God is something humans have made up out of fear and stupidity. It would be ridiculous to believe in it. I am not stupid, I am an atheist.
2) God is supposedly a good thing that has some extraordinary powers. It would be great if it was true, but I have never seen it, no one has ever proven that it exists. Until I see it, I will not believe. I am an atheist.
3) I was told God exists, I used to pray but my prayers were not returned. Why should I believe in God? If it exists it is not good because it never helped me when I needed help. I would rather be an atheist, that way I am not lying to myself.
4) What are these people talking about, God ??? I have too many things to worry about to think about God. I don't know what it is, I don't care to know, and I don't believe in it.
5) God teaches not to steal, not to lie, and all kinds of crap. If I follow God then I will be poor. I don't believe in God, I am an atheist.
6) God was made up by a group of people to easily control the naive believers (religion is the opium of nations). I am not naive, I am an atheist.
7) God may be true but it has brought great misfortune to my people and to other people although they strogly believed in him. I do not accept God, it is nonsense. I will disregard and revolt agaist whatever God tells me to do. I am an atheist.
8) I don't want money, but I want fame. I like to be proud of my accomplishments. God tells me to be humble and modest. How can it be? I would rather be an atheist.
9)...

So many ways to be an atheist. Perhaps each atheist has his/her own reasons. I think one thing is common among atheists that they don't perceive God as the origin of everything that is good, and that God loves everybody and is an infinite source of compassion. And other things like that.

To answer Sips question, no, if you are an atheist, or even an Atheist, it doesn't mean you lack the whole list of good qualities. No matter what kind of atheist you are, there must be some good qualities at least. A lot of atheists are better than believers. So it all depends.

I would suggest, to a hypothetical person, if you can, do not reject God without contemplating about it for a while. Not to believe in something that you do not understand is as irrational as believing in it.

There are also many ways to be a believer.
Everyone would give up their wealth to save their life. True believers would give up their life to save their Faith. Faith is more valueable than wealth, and even more valuable than life. We should give credit to true believers.

God has made a great sacrifice by giving defective creatures such as humans freedom. We are free to choose His way or some other way. This is His game. It is a quite interesting game called life. Whatever way we choose we try to enjoy it.

By believing in God you can invoke the good qualities in yourself.

.......

OK, not to be carried away. This is about what I believe. There is no point to say things that may sound nonsense to nonbelievers

So long.

[gamavor]

"I was told God exists, I used to pray but my prayers were not returned. Why should I believe in God? If it exists it is not good because it never helped me when I needed help. I would rather be an atheist, that way I am not lying to myself."

How do you know that He didn't help you?

[Sip]

Sasun, I think we are in sync I understand your position now and I think it is a valid one. I also like your different "atheists" listing.

To clarify my position, here's a #9 (which I fit in)

9) God being the embodiment of all that is good (and only good) sounds too made up to be true. However, although I do not believe in that God, I do not reject the possibility of it's existance.

[hyebruin]

I like your answer...it reminds me of a poem called "footprints" where the man goes on and on complaining and moaning that God wasn't there for him...that there was only one set of footprints during the most difficult time of his life...and he felt abandoned by God...then God replies..."it was then that I carried you"...so, you see it is all about how you perceive the world and your life...and for those who CHOOSE to be atheists...it will APPEAR to them that they are abandoned and without grace or love...might take many lifetimes for those souls to rise above their human egos and let their souls evolve...while all along God watches patiently waiting to be embraced... It's easier to understand pain and misery if people stop looking at everything as black and white and realize that each good and bad experience serves a purpose to teach a lesson...and it is always a lesson of love and compassion for ourselves and for the world...i.e. God knows exactly what is going on between Palestine and Israel; it's not God's fault these two idiot nations choose to kill!!! with every killing, there is the opportunity to surrender, show compassion, and say ENOUGH! we lost enough, let's stop killing...it really is that simple! but, I guess the human ego is pretty powerful and it's easier to blame all this on a 'cruel God' and 'the enemy' rather than try to have empathy and take responsibility,be a true leader,and bring love to this world...

[Sip]

If "God" had listened to my prayers, my lastname would be "Hefner" by now.

[ January 13, 2003, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[hyebruin]

Sip jan, you always find a way to make liggggght of heaaaaavy subjects... I am sure every guy (almost every guy!) is Mr.Playboy for some lucky/unlucky girl... We're sure YOU really are a lady's man

[Sip]

If by "lady" you mean "computer" and by man you mean "geek" then I totally agree with you

[axel]

My definition of an atheist (and that of Sasun, I guess ) is "a person who believes God does not exist".

As far as new age is concerned, it is a new world order artifact and as such it has nothing to do with Christ although it pretends to. I'm not saying its followers are not well-intentioned people but they may not fully grasp the hidden intent behind the apparent truths.

We, Armenians, have the autocephalous Apostolic Church which is the church of Christ and a vector of unity for our People.

PS: Sip Jan, if you have time to kill , read the following, it is a synthesis of atheism as I understand it: The Grand Inquisitor

[axel]

Sip, the term "agnostic" is better suited to describe your position.

[MJ]

This is why everything you say comes as fake.

[THOTH]

Axel, Sansun, et al

Regarding definitions of Atheism. OK - more on the mark here - but I don't understand what stealing things or wanting to be famous or such have to do with anything (relating to one particualr religious belief set versus another...). These attributes in man/woman existed long before any contemplation of (Christian or Monotheistic "God") and are traits I think found no more or less with believers or those who do not believe. In fact I can most likely cite more examples of supposed or self-proclaimed Christians who exhibit such traits and behaviors then those who claim to be or are Atheists.

My basic position: "God" is a waste of time. Contemplating the nature of and desires of etc some (fictional) "God" serves no purpose (to me). If thats what makes you happy - or if you truly believe (that you need such) - well fine. But don't go thinking - saying - that those of us who do not believe as you do have any lesser qualities or what not. Because when you do - I will start to call you (bad) names.

Oh and Stepahn - !!! LOL - most excellent...

[Harut]

you're such a sinner. you're deffinately going to HellForum.
obey, follow, and never anger all mighty MosJan.

[THOTH]

Seeming essence of your belief: All that is good is attributable to "God" - all that is bad - well thats man's fault...

Doesn't this strike folks as somewhat problimatic? And folks (you) are accusing Atheists of having some kind of self-hate complex...Hah!

I have no fear of Hell. Unless of course you are refering to Camden NJ.