1700 years of Christianity!!!

Gayane,

Christian faith by far is the largest in the whole world. About 2.4 billion people consider themselves Christians. This is the most popular religion in the whole world now.
While most nations became Christians relatively late after the powerful Romans (later Spanish, French, Portuguese) and Byzantians enforced, Armenia became the first Christian state in 301. This fact that in 301 at the time when the super powers Romans and Persians opposed and persecuted Christians, our ancestors were visionary, brave, and faithful enough to declare the First in the world Christian State!This is something to be proud of! All Armenians should be proud of it!

MJ, each class in a society has its interests, and it was in the interest of Armenian Church for centuries to take on the role of representing the nation (although I strongly believe that each class in an ethnic group can have an opposing interest). After the fall of Bagratuny Kingdom, when most noble families immigrated west, Armenia had lost the class of society that had the resources and was interested in having a strong statehood. Church promoted cultural advancements in order to increase affiliation of people with Armenian Apostolic Church. The treatment of Tondrakian and Paulikian movements speak for intolerance of Armenian Church. After all if we thoroughly analyze history we can find that protestant movement originated in Armenia, before moving to Balkans (Bogomils), and to Western Europe (Kalvinists and Lutherans). Church, especially in its organized form resembles a political organization, and has its unique interests. It was in the interest of Armenian Church to establish a unique structure, weed out competing religious groups and establish a complete control on all matters that are related to Armenia and Armenians. While having a strong state doesn’t guarantee stronger cultural development, its important for a long-term sponsorship. It’s one of the reasons that Armenian Voske Dar did not lead to post Renaissance affects that occured in Western Europe. After our Voske Dar we didn’t have any sort of Cultural revival until the end of 19th century. I don’t promote the activities of Armenian Church, but try to analyze its activities, as I’d look at any other organized group. They have their interests and have to pursue them. If there was any other class that could have promoted its interests they would have done it, but they immigrated to Cilicia and other parts of Byzantine Empire in 11th century.

Here is an interesting website I found today. http://home.fireplug...sis/cathar.html

Alpha,

I sort-of agree with your last assessments. But all I am saying is we should not create myths on the Armenian Church, we should not lie to our nation, we should not absolutise its role, we should recognize its failures and its flaws, and maybe then we can say "For better or for worse, this is our Church, and we stand by it. The way we are, the way our Church is." I wouldn't have problems with it.

But its absolute glorification, and the fact of it being beyond criticism does a disservice to both the nation and the Church itself.

P.S. The site referenced by you is quite interesting. There is not much information preserved on Pulikians and the Tondraketsi in Armenian literature. No wonder.



[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 06, 2001).]

MJ, I absolutely agree with you on the issue that we should name things the way they are and not over glorify things. However I guess it’s not only Armenian Church we over glorify. We over glorify everything related to Armenia and Armenians. Remember we used to call Armenia “museum under open skies”, although there are not that many historical monuments.
(U KVN Noviye Armyan yest takaya fraza;
- U nas v Armenii mnogo dostaprimichatelnosti,
- Naprimer kakiye
- Piramida Xeopsa
- Ona je v Yegipte
- U nas strana molenkaya pust ona poka tam postait)


Armenians, are extremely idealistic people. I guess we lack some sense of reality. We feel like we are “the chosen people”, and have a special mission in the world. Yet, in reality we are just like other people that come from Levantine region. Since our identity is so closely tied with Armenian Apostolic Church, we tend to close our eyes to its flaws. After all, church is a business entity. It has its income statement and balance sheet.

MJ,

I agree that as everything Armenian church is not perfect. Lets look at it this way, we all have or had Moms, for most people their Moms are the best in the world, while Moms as human beings are not perfect. However, on our mothers' Birthdays, when we say a toast we wish all the best, we prise and focus only on the good. So, on the 1700th anniversary of Armenian Church, we people the "children of the Church" should focus on achievements, on its unquestionable role in preserving Armenian language and culture, on its ability to unite the nation, and all the good! Moreover, we should wish Armenian Church to last until the last Armenian soul is saved, until the end of the days!

Alpha,

Unfortunately, the joke you mentioned is very typical of our mass national character. I think it is one of our greatest flaws.

Surorus,

The very survival and revival of the Armenian Church requires critical analysis and thorough shake-up. As one high-profile Armenian Bishop has told me once, it is a "Mafia" similar to the industrial one, only worse, because it comes with a mask of a lamb.

I'm sorry that I have left it rather late to say something more, after my first comments which seemed to have sparked off the discussion!

However since the talk seems to be moving away from the history (or not) of the 1700 anniversary to a discussion (disection?) of the Armenian church in general, I'll post what I want to say as a new topic.

Steve

Yes, the abstraction from truth would help our nation.

You see MJ, the thread successfully removed the basis of 1700 celebration.

We have a self-destructing power no other nation has.

Can anyone name ANY non-false celebration that other nations are celebrating? Is that 25 Christmas a real celebration? It was invented by the Pope. And all of you go on celebrating each other on this false date. You all have been fooled. Have you seen any dicussion in the US about 25 Christmas's falseness.

Mardi Gra is a flase celebration. Rio Festival is a false celebration. Wine festivals in all mediteranian counties are false. Olimpic games are a COMPLETELY false celebration. They shouldn't be called Olimpic. German beer festivals are false. Chinese dragon festival is false. All islamic festivals and celebrations are false. The Russians cononised their last tsar as a SAINT ?! and rebuilt a church inside Moscow to mark this celebration. 800 years celebration of the Ottoman empire was false....

All nations like to fool themselvs to be happy. We just don't like to be happy. We always like to be smarter than all others. Even if it's killing ourselvs.

P.S. Has any one of you played the computer strategy games like Age of Empires or similar. You build houses for people, develop your economy, build barracks for your troops, develop the technology etc. When you build the WONDER BUILDING your people start working faster, your troops get stronger. Even when your economy is poor but you manage to build the wonder building, your wrokers work harder, your troops get stronger. And it helps to develop the technology. This is just a computer game, but its very similar to real life.

Berj, I just recalled:

It is said that Narekatsi was suspected in being aligned with Tondraketsi. However, he has written against Tondraketsi. There is a version that he has done it to push away the suspicions from himself. But the important thing is that the spirit of his "Matean Voghbergutian" (1002 A.D.) is in establishing bridge of personal relationship with God, thus passing around the Church. The entire "Matean Voghbergutian" is a challenge to the Armenian Church. And he sounds more like Tondraketsi, even though he was an ordained monk of the Armenian Apostolic Church.

There are stories that some have tried to punish him, and have delivered complains to the bishop and the nobility. It is known that his father - Khosrov Andzevatsi has been abominated as a heretic. A legend has been delivered all the way to our days that when the representatives of the religious court have come to arrest him, he has given them two roasted pigeons, saying that he has by mistake roasted the pigeons, and has asked those clergy to resurrect the pigeons. Clearly, they have not been able to do it. Then, Narekatsi has resurrected them, and the pigeons have flied away. It has made obvious that Narekatsi was Saint, and empowered to come up with miracles. The charges against him have been dropped.

So, apparently, the Armenian Church itself has questioned whether Narekatsi was part of it or not...

MJ, so what?

You see, you consider the Armenian church to be an institution, and you are against that institution. I do not consider it to be an institution, so I just don't care what the Catholicos says or does.

Narekatsi was not rejected by the Armenian Church. He was rejected by the clergymen you always blame.

MJ, all of your postings about Armenian issues have 1 idea, which tells:

"Believe in nothing but yourself"

OK. Now, tell me why do you call youself an Armenian?

Dear Berj,

I can see your point, and agree with many things you say.

As I have admited, I am all for the celebration of the anniversary. It is a marketing vehicle for Armenia, and it has to be exploited to its fullest capacity. My understanding is that this is exactly what's going on even on the level of Echmiadzin, btw.

But the thing is, for example, we, including the Armenian Church in the US, celebrate the December 25 as Christmas day, with a full understanding that it is a false date. It doesn’t make us to be any less happier on that date, while carrying this understanding in our minds. I also think, that January 6th might be a false date, as well. You see, we cannot speak with certainty about things that have taken place 20 years ago. How can we speak with certainty about things that might have taken place 2000 years ago?

My non-conventional stance on the issue of the 1700th anniversary is not about being happy or not. I think, first of all, we have to be happy every day, regardless of if we have new reasons for it or not.

What I am objecting is the centuries-old brainwashing of our nation. What I believe is it doesn't serve the purpose, and moreover, dooms our nation to psychological impotency. We try to justify our existence and assert our importance in our past, whatever it may be. It deprives us from our future. This has been done for centuries. We witness the results. We have created false ideals and symbols, and are ready, maybe, even to die for them, but we are skeptical about our future, and it seems like we don't have any plans for it. I think there is something overwhelmingly wrong with our national psychology. And that’s what I am rebelling against.

As you have said once, and Steve/Bellthecat has said the same yesterday, the history is in the hands of the winners. I also subscribe to that opinion. I would also add that it is a very creative academic game, besides being a political instrument. Depending on what methodology you ascribe to, that’s the type of conclusions you can make.

For example, three professors of mathematics of mine – Fomenko, Mishchenko and Postnikov at MSU, resurrecting an old idea of a Russian historian Morozov (early 20th century, I think), had come up with an argument that the only accurate tool for making judgments about historical dates are the descriptions of solar eclipses. More detailed their descriptions, more accurately they may allow identifying the dates of the events during the eclipses. On a purely logical level, I think this is a very legitimate argument. So… Being a brilliant mathematician, Fomenko had calculated the occurrences of all solar eclipses, and had calculated where they might’ve each of them been observable. Now, some conclusion… According to this theory, the solar eclipse during the crucifixion of Jesus Christ described in the New Testament, so that to be observable where it is described in the Book, should’ve taken place in 1054 A.D. Fomenko strongly believes that this is when it has taken place, and has come up (following Morozov) with another theory onthe echo of historical events to the future, and moreover, of their echo to the times before their occurrences. He brings a whole host of examples and arguments, manifesting for example, that the Greek philosopher Plato has lived in fact in the late first millennium A.D., and the Plato we are aware of in the B.C. era, is his backwards echo. There are many other such interesting arguments and stories. Many of his claims are rejected by other historians. What Postnikov claims is “this is an interesting methodology, it doesn’t necessarily mean that this is what has happened, but if you follow this methodology, you consistently arrive to these conclusions.” I think every other methodology leads to its own results.

Also, let’s recall how has Stalin rewritten the entire history of Russian Revolutions, and how convinced the absolute majority of the USSR population had become in the correctness of this history – just in one generation. Imagine that the regime had lasted for several hundred years, as it has done with the Roman or Ottoman Empire. Would’ve the people of USSR had any doubts about the history of Revolution? Or imagine that the Nazi Germany had won the WWII, and had conquered the whole world. Would’ve we spoken about the atrocities of Nazis, or the Jewish Holocaust, or would’ve we glorified “Hitler papi.” Like the “Lenin papi.” Wouldn’t we have many Armenian poets, among others, writing verses on “Hitler grandpa?”

You may recall that in the past, in our forum I have resented our national masochism, and have even quoted Anan. I am not a masochist, I think our nation is a very positive one. It is just going through some very difficult and painful transition. We are not better than many others, and we are not worse than many others, either. I just think that in building our nation and country, we have followed false methodologies and values, and have paid a very high price for it.

I think we have an incredible chance to finish the build-up of our nation and our country at this very critical juncture. It just requires down-to-earth philosophy and vision, pragmatism, but also imagination. As to the imagination we, as Armenians, are not short of it. We have plenty of it. As to the pragmatism and to the down-to-earth mentality, on a personal level, we have a lot of it, too. But when we get together as a nation, in our collective consciousness it disappears. But I believe a new generation of Armenians is coming. This generation is smarter than past ones, it is more aggressive, and more capable. There is only lack of leadership. Otherwise the material is there.

I just think that we have to build a new type of Armenia, liberate ourselves from the heavy burden of our painful past, and move on to assert our value through our present and future endeavors.

This is a big topic, and I am sure we can continue it in other threads.

Berj,

I have posted my last reply before reading your last one. I have to go now. Will reply to you perhaps in a couple of hours.

I don't think you need encouragement. This is just to set a positive atmosphere for your next posting.

Berj,

Indeed I consider the Armenian Church to be an institution, and that’s what it is, I think.

See, another disagreement I have is about the institution vs. clergymen. I don’t think that the clergymen are bad outside the framework of the institution. To claim it would remind me the statement I have heard a lot in the old days: “Our Soviet Union is a good system. Our leaders are bad.”

As I have said many times, I think the Armenian Church needs a good shake-up, and it needs to undergo a thorough self-cleansing process. To me, the Church is not the assembly of the buildings. The buildings themselves, other than their limited architectural and historic value, don’t have any other value. In a way, not any more value than the ruins of Erebuni or Garni. Unless the Church manifests itself as the Body of Christ, as it is supposed to be, I don’t see its role in modern Armenian society, and it will die regardless of what we see or think. And this transformation is what the Church has to go through, so that to claim my respect. And I believe I am not alone with this reservation of mine.

Narekatsi. The entire essence of Narekatsi’s work is contrary to the concept of the Church as institution. Narekatsi is the first liberated of the slavery of the institution Christian that I am aware of. The Church has not in fact embraced him - the people have. Interestingly enough, the people have made up stories of him of being just an amazingly kind shepherd, who has never raised his voice even on sheep. When their children have gotten sick, people have read Narek at their beds, and have put his writings under the pillows of their children. The ordinary people have accepted Narekatsi more readily than the Church has done. I think Narekatsi is the utmost Armenian pride, but have you ever heard the Church mention Narekatsi?

As to my main underlying idea on the Armenian issues, you are half way through to correctly understand me. It is not “Believe only in yourself.” It is “Grant the benefit of the doubt to everyone. Believe in everything and everyone, unless you have reasons to believe otherwise, but rely only on yourself.”

Try it. It works.

Finally, I don’t just say I am Armenian. That’s how I feel.


[This message has been edited by MJ (edited January 06, 2001).]

Dear MJ,

I agree with your points regarding the issue of Armenian Church, but I want to comment on 3 points I quoted above.

1.Exploiting the 1700 in its fullest capacity means that the product must be presented as an original product with good quality. Every product develops a history, which makes its value (together with quality) distinct for the buyer. The quality of our Christian culture is OK for sales if we don't dis-advertise it.

2.For building a new Armenia we don't need to demolish everything. Ironically MJ, it is a very communist idea (Mi stari mir razrushim, i novi mir postroim... ). I think we don't need to question the validity of our Christian culture. It's same as all others. As you said it before (don't remeber the exact words), we need to prevent the Disapora from funding the Church in those astrological amounts. I think if all non-wealthy-businessmen Armenians would be employed by the Church, we would all live happily. If they stop investing in Church that much, all the Church money-makers will become ordinary businessmen and only those who really care for smth spiritual will continue their honest job. But again, we don't need to rewrite the history for that.

3. This must be the position of state officials, public servants and not ordinary people. Ordinary people need smth they do not doubt.

You're in wrong business MJ

1. Don’t you think, Berj, that others are not that stupid? When we are alleging good quality for something, in this particular case the Church, are we trying to cheat others or ourselves? Try to give this sales pitch to an educated foreigner. What he/she does under the best scenario? Looks at his/her feet, and smiles. (: If you think anybody outside Armenia and Armenian Diaspora is going to take this celebration at its face value – think again. My reservations about the substance of the issue are not motivated by the skepticism whether the date was 301, 314 or 451. Who cares? As I have said before, I am all for the celebration – for the same reasons you have expressed support for it. Armenia needs positive marketing. At least in its subliminal form, if nothing else. Even if it is about celebrating the 4000th anniversary of the first ever Olympiad, which has been held in Armenia (just kidding ). Whether Armenia has indeed become Christian in 301 or not, it is not important. The important thing is that Armenia reintroduces itself to the world, and makes claims beyond financial aid, terrorism and ethnic war, which are how others know us, if only they have heard of us. See for those who have heard of us, Armenia frequently exists in a pair with Azerbaijan or Romania. You say “I am from Armenia,” and typically there are two reactions: 1. Romania? 2. Ah, you were in war with Azerbaijan, weren’t you? Sure, in Southern California Armenians are well known in a different ways. See, I think this forums average intellectual capacity should be above the average capacity of the “ordinary people.” It would shine in much better light I think, if we can present ourselves in a bit restrained way during the celebrations, and put things in perspective especially in this forum. I also hope that the moment may be ceased to educate our nation on Christianity, and not to make fools from us, preaching Christianity to others, while not having ever studied what the Christianity is about. There are ample examples of it only in our forum.

2. You have wrong perception of me. I am not for demolishing anything, but I am for a new Armenia, which should not follow the examples, and more importantly, the outcomes of old Armenias. What I claim is our centuries old pathos, and the centuries old ideology, and the centuries old clichés are bankrupt. Our history is the best proof of it. Some say because of the injection of these slogans we have survived. I would claim that because of injecting these slogans, we have become weaker and weaker and weaker, and smaller and smaller and smaller, and so on. I am just very reluctant of flying on the bubbles…

3. The state officials, public servants, etc., come from the ordinary people. If the ordinary people are not wise enough, they cannot produce wise state officials and public servants. Besides, they won’t be tolerated by the ordinary people, if they are not like them.

Tell me what business should I be in, Berj,

OK, let me paraphrase it this way:

"It is wrong that you're in business MJ"

Do you mean I should be out of business?

Astvats chani MJ jan

You should be in the government.