67 replies to this topic

[Sasun]

Let's see what the forumers think about this. Please note that one question can't exceed one line, so I had to keep it short. By "seeing" a miracle I definitely mean seeing in normal conditions healthwise as well as seeing without any unnatural influences such as drugs and alcohol. I also mean not just seeing but using other senses. Also you are convinced that it is not an illusion. For instance, water turns into wine in front of your eyes, you can smell and taste it, as well as check in the lab to make sure that it was definitely water and it is definitely wine now. You get the idea...

[Sip]

Sasun, before I answer, first you have to define "miracle" explicitly.

[Sip]

My dictionary has 3 definitions for it:

1. act of God: an event that appears to be contrary to the laws of nature and is regarded as an act of God
2. amazing event: an event or action that is totally amazing, extraordinary, or unexpected
• It’ll be a miracle if we get there on time.
3. marvelous example of skill: something admired as a marvelous creation or example of a particular type of science or skill
• a miracle of modern engineering

Encarta® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1999,2000 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.

Obviously 2 and 3 do occur in our daily lives and is more of a subjective view of a job well done. But I suspect you mean strictly the first one.

[Sasun]

Sasun, before I answer, first you have to define "miracle" explicitly.

Something that has no explanation by sciences. You can take examples of wideley known types of miracles, for example a man walking on the water.

So I guess it is number 1 from your definitions.

[nairi]

Sip, that's what I thought, and also, why should a miracle be necessarily religious or the work of (some) God?

Sure things happen around us that are hard to explain, but maybe that's just because we don't have the ability to understand them yet. I don't think every "miracle" is necessarily the work of God, if it is at all.

[Sasun]

Well, when I put up the questions I was not thinking exactly as acts of God, but let's say with or without the idea that it maybe an act of God.

[ED]

Today a miracle happened,

when i drove home from work, all along i had a loose tire, as soon as i exited freeway i made a left turn my car wobled and there was a gas station right next to it (union 76) the guy at the startion was amaized this tire dident go loose wile driving on the freeway, wow i.i.i.i guess ( as gas station guy told me ) I'm one lucky SOB not to loose it on the freeway.

[ED]

Courtesy of Roger Waters,
It’s a Miracle


Miraculous you call it babe
You ain't seen nothing yet
They've got Pepsi in the Andes
McDonalds in Tibet
Yosemite's been turned into
A golf course for the Japs
The Dead Sea is alive with rap
Between the Tigris and Euphrates
There's a leisure centre now
They've got all kinds of sports
They've got Bermuda shorts
They had sex in Pennsylvania
A Brazilian grew a tree
A doctor in Manhattan
Saved a dying man for free
It's a miracle
Another Miracle
By the grace of God Almighty
And the pressures of the marketplace
The human race has civilized itself
It's a miracle
We've got warehouses of butter
We've got oceans of wine
We've got famine when we need it
Got designer crime
We've got Mercedes
We've got Porsche
Ferrari and Rolls Royce
We've got choice
She said meet me
In the Garden of Gethsemene my dear
The Lord said Peter I can see
Your house from here
An honest family man
Finally reaped what he had sown
A farmer in Ohio has just repaid a loan
It's a miracle
By the grace of God Almighty
And the pressures of the marketplace
The human race has civilized itself
It's a miracle
We cower in our shelters
With our hands over our ears
Lloyd-Webber's awful stuff
Runs for years and years and years
An earthquake hits the theater
But the operetta lingers
Then the piano lid comes down
And breaks his f***ing fingers
It's a miracle

[Anoushik]

Sasun, before I answer, first you have to define "miracle" explicitly.

This was my first thought too after I read through the poll question

[Anoushik]

Today a miracle happened,

when i drove home from work, all along i had a loose tire, as soon as i exited freeway i made a left turn my car wobled and there was a gas station right next to it (union 76) the guy at the startion was amaized this tire dident go loose wile driving on the freeway, wow i.i.i.i guess ( as gas station guy told me ) I'm one lucky SOB not to loose it on the freeway.

Edward, I'm glad that nothing serious happened.

[Anoushik]

Sasun, how about:

9. Something that seems like a miracle could have a logical explanation; even if it's not found yet we'll find that logical explanation in the future.

...Or something like that

[DominO]

Self-awarness is a miracle.

[Armen]

Self-awarness is a miracle.

That's a mighty thought.

[DominO]

That's a mighty thought.

I will add that self-awarness is the only real miracle.

I can not answer Sasuns poll, nothing in the choices satisfy me.

A physicist observe light as particle, he just made light as a particle insteed of wave... he did miracle, but the reason why this miracle did happen was because he was self-aware in the first place.

Self-awarness is miracle, and every miracles are just the consequences of this miracle.

I watch the stars and have a mystical feeling, I watch nature, the trees and I have a mystical feeling... those miracles that are the stars, the trees, our Sun are just the consequences of the only real miracle. Self-Awarness.

[Siamanto]

Sasun,
You forgot number 10:

If I think that I'm witnessing miracles than either
a- I'm so exhausted that

I have a dream to sit down and relax under a palm tree

or
b- I had too much of

Wine...a Christian thingy

Edited by Siamanto, 23 February 2005 - 10:49 PM.

[shaunt]

I want to say that there can be no such thing as miracles, since everything that occurs in this world is a possible way the world could be. Logical laws determine these possible states of affairs; there can be no illogical event.

But that type of a response wouldn't do justice to the miraculous. We cannot overlook the miraculous as a cultural phenomenon, or else you get answers like the one I gave above. And this completely destroys the beauty of the miraculous.

Edited by shaunt, 24 February 2005 - 02:05 AM.

[Sasun]

Sasun, how about:

9. Something that seems like a miracle could have a logical explanation; even if it's not found yet we'll find that logical explanation in the future.

...Or something like that

Yes, of course, I kind of assume that miracle or not a miracle, if something happens it could not be illogical.

[Sasun]

I want to say that there can be no such thing as miracles, since everything that occurs in this world is a possible way the world could be. Logical laws determine these possible states of affairs; there can be no illogical event.

But that type of a response wouldn't do justice to the miraculous. We cannot overlook the miraculous as a cultural phenomenon, or else you get answers like the one I gave above. And this completely destroys the beauty of the miraculous.

Well, if you define a miracle as something illogical then there really are no miracles, we agree on that.

[Solaris]

Hey Sasun, was it my attitude to miracles that inspired you with the idea of this poll?

I'll pose the question differently: in my opinion the right question is not whether or not we believe in miracles, but whether we want to believe. Makes a lot of difference.

I've already said in that "wretched" thread on Jesus' birth that events usually referred to as miracles are not necessarily supernatural, 'cause there are always other possible explanations. We can be hoaxed, mistaken, or deluded, or the event isn't what it seems to be, or simply our knowledge is not enough to explain it scientifically. Consider if David Copperfield's show was performed before a person who has no idea that there exist such things as tricks. And the telephone would certainly seem a miracle to the contemporaries of Jonathan Swift.

The trick is that if we "fancy" a particular miracle, we may be inclined (perhaps subconsciously) to stick to the idea of miracle ignoring all other possible explanations, to the degree of defying them when they are being pointed out by someone else. A great many people seem to crave for some "tangible" mystic experience or proof of supernatural. If one believes in some religion, they'll simply want certain phenomena to be a miracles proving their beliefs (Sasun and his stigmata). They simply won't welcome rational explanations.

So if we see an "unbelievable" thing, we should neither believe nor disbelieve, but rather register the event and try and test all possible explanations. And the dosage of vino taken prior to the alleged mystic experience should be the first thing to check out…

And one more thing for you Sasun:

Imagine a friend (who has always been sober and stable as far as you know) comes to you to confide that (s)he hears voices and sees angels – symptoms that are common both for delusional mental illnesses and divine contact. You will:

a. Revere her/him as someone having contact with God;
b. Arrange a meeting for her/him with a good physiatrist.

What would prevail, your belief in divine contact or the concern and responsibility for the friends' mental health?

[Sasun]

Hey Sasun, was it my attitude to miracles that inspired you with the idea of this poll?

Yeah, you were very inspiring

I'll pose the question differently: in my opinion the right question is not whether or not we believe in miracles, but whether we want to believe. Makes a lot of difference.

It is another question, different from my question. Both are right.

I've already said in that "wretched" thread on Jesus' birth that events usually referred to as miracles are not necessarily supernatural, 'cause there are always other possible explanations. We can be hoaxed, mistaken, or deluded, or the event isn't what it seems to be, or simply our knowledge is not enough to explain it scientifically. Consider if David Copperfield's show was performed before a person who has no idea that there exist such things as tricks.  And the telephone would certainly seem a miracle to the contemporaries of Jonathan Swift.

Well, everything is possible, and if you are saying that one of the possibilities is that "our knowledge is not enough to explain it" then I don't have a disagreement. But I had the impression that for you delusion or hoax are more preferable answers.

The trick is that if we "fancy" a particular miracle, we may be inclined (perhaps subconsciously) to stick to the idea of miracle ignoring all other possible explanations, to the degree of defying them when they are being pointed out by someone else.

That would be another extreme. However, when you see a fellow walking on water then you should certainly consider a miracle as at least a valid possibility.

A great many people seem to crave for some "tangible" mystic experience or proof of supernatural. If one believes in some religion, they'll simply want certain phenomena to be a miracles proving their beliefs (Sasun and his stigmata).  They simply won't welcome rational explanations.

But you are not offering a rational explanation. Skepticism is not necessarily rational, and not even an explanation. I really don't see why skepticism is made such a big deal. Who cannot doubt? I have never met such a person who is unable to doubt. The article that you provided a link for does not mention a number of other people who have witnessed Therese Neumanns stigmata. That's kind of biased don't you think? Just pick a person's testimony who has doubts, but consider all those other folks who are sure of what they saw as delusional or faking, etc... very typical of skeptics

So if we see an "unbelievable" thing, we should neither believe nor disbelieve, but rather register the event and try and test all possible explanations. And the dosage of vino taken prior to the alleged mystic experience should be the first thing to check out… 

I can see why you think that way, because you are not aware of many instances of miraculous events
Actually what a skeptic would do is to check the for "vino" and other types of influences, and once nothing is found, conclude that the person is delusional. That's a sad level of investigation.

And one more thing for you Sasun:

Imagine a friend (who has always been sober and stable as far as you know) comes to you to confide that (s)he hears voices and sees angels – symptoms that are common both for delusional mental illnesses and divine contact. You will:

a. Revere her/him as someone having contact with God;
b. Arrange a meeting for her/him with a good physiatrist.

What would prevail, your belief in divine contact or the concern and responsibility for the friends' mental health?

Hmm... why would I revere just because someone had a divine contact? That would not be one of my choices. So my choices would be to either believe or disbelieve. But if it really happened I would be very curious to ask him/her how that happened, what exactly happened during that contact, etc... such things would shed more light on whether I would believe or not.

So now it is your turn to answer your questions I think it is pretty obvious...

Edited by Sasun, 24 February 2005 - 02:23 PM.