My cousin is dating other race!!!
Posted 04 October 2000 - 01:47 AM
Posted 04 October 2000 - 03:06 AM
At least it is good to know that you would accept marriages of Armenians with black Indians, though, unfortunately you wouldn’t accept marrying Chines or Jewish. Good that Mamikonyans and Bagratounys have lived before your times
I, for example, am my own man. Nobody else owns me. As far as the illegitimacy of my reproduction is concerned, I am the law in that issue, so anything I decide is legitimate. And my personality is my essence – not my nationality, since I have control over my personality, while the control over my nationality belonged to my parents.
Since you are a liquid,I presume - beer, you have no rights It’s hot outside your bottle. Beware of evaporation
[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 04, 2000).]
Posted 04 October 2000 - 07:14 AM
So, your lectures about ethics and forum discipline were just means of getting forum rating. It's OK. But don't fool yourself in the future I can call myself what I want, you don't have that right. You crossed all the personal borders I can imagine.
Black Indians of India are not Indo-Europeans. They are the race who lived in India before the Aryan conquest of North India. The pure Indo-europeans are consentrated in Punjab, Kashmir, Rajasthan and most of them are Sikhs and are also very, very white. The black Indians are the same race with Sri Lankan population.
Bagratounys' being Jewish is not yet proved. It's even very, very far from being proved. So don't strech facts out of their limits. I can accept that adding Chinese flavour in 2-nd century BC was my company's smart strategy, so in 5-th century it gave a good result. However 99,99% of the product was local.
I have been out of my bottle a lot. Outside it's much cooler than in our plant. When you get out of the plant you see that you have a good quality and the marketing is going easy. I saw the prodution of our plant spread all over the world enjoying popularity.
Posted 04 October 2000 - 07:42 AM
I sincerely apologize if I have crossed your personal space. It has not been my intention. I just tried to contradict you in the humorists language you had introduced a message ago. If it was a bad humor, I am really sorry. I just wanted to tell you that in my view your previous statements go against your personal rights, of which I am not a denier but supporter.
All I wanted to do is to make a point that if you think you belong to your “company,” then it is the “company’s” prerogative to defend its “copyright,” not yours. Obviously, I don’t think this way, I think the opposite – you and everybody else have all the rights as it pertains to your/others’ life, and are the masters of your lives.
I didn’t even cross my mind to insult you, nor I needed ratings in the forum. After all, I am not profiting from these discussions, nor am running for an elective office. Those who are looking forward to high ratings, have a more assured way of doing it – just bash the Turks. Give me that much credit, please. Again, on this subject I have nothing else to add, but to apologize again.
On the subject of Bagratouny, unless I am going to question Movses Khorenatsi’s authenticity, and not to take his word for granted that he was ordered to write the history of Armenia by ishkhan Bagratouny, whom he apparently knew very closely, I have no reasons to suspect in Bagratounies ethnic origin. If you think what I said is a stretch, you should redirect your claims to Khorenatsi.
I think it is fruitless to argue about the genealogy of Indians in our forum.
As far as your quality is concerned, I have not a slightest argument with you on that issue. I don’t mean undermining your/our quality whatsoever. To the contrary, I expect all of us living corresponding to that quality.
Posted 04 October 2000 - 04:20 PM
Mind you. I have read the the new post recently , and I think some of it is really quite interesting. It made me think. I do think if we want to talk about racial issues we should do , but to keep it a bit more polite and calm than previous, and not get so heated up and feiry (myself included!)
Anyway. while i'm here I have have had a look at he lit section of this forum, and Garo put some poetry there, with reveiw and comments. Another person on it suggested that we should organise it, and have lots of different sections on authors, etc. I think this is a very good idea. If any one of you know of any sites on poetry literature, music, lyrics, biographies of high-profile famous armenians, I think it would really be helpful and good.
Also: things about what's going on in Armenia and the communities there?
Speak to you all soon take care.
Posted 04 October 2000 - 05:43 PM
Posted 05 October 2000 - 11:43 AM
You know I like sarcasm and I will never get offended by that. If smb. does that to me what I do is I respect him. Let's leave aside why I responded in that way.
Yes, my statement underminds my rights. That's because I have responsibilities towards my country and ethnos.
MJ, by Movses Khorenaci not only Bagratounies and Mamikonyans, but also Amatounies, Kamsarakans, Gnounies, Khorkhorunies, Artsrounies weren't of Armenian decent. Some scientists say this was an order from major nakharar families to increase their nobility level, to be different from lower nakharar families. And note that all of them were engaged in fights for the throne. All of the stories on this families by Khorenatsi are leading to links with royal dinasties from abroad. He proves them to be relatives of Jewish, Assirian, Median etc. royal families, to have more chances for the throne. Because when Khorenaci was writing his "History of Armenia" Armenia did not have a king.
OK, let's leave Indians alone.
Posted 05 October 2000 - 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Half Breed:
How Berj! Me injun too remember! Whoops, I forgot, you are talking about the other Indians!
Hoooow Snake's Eye! Old Uncle Berj has a sclerosis. He only smells you Aryan blood.
Arayzh...I mean Ouwoo-woo-woo...
Posted 05 October 2000 - 03:43 AM
Probably we all here feel responsibility for our nation and country, otherwise it wouldn't make much sense to spend this much time in the forum. But all of us probably have their ways of feeling responsible, and have maybe different solutions. Non of us are the patriarchs of the nation, so let's grant everybody the right to proceed the way he/she thinks best suitable.
In my view, for example, when the country requires undermining the rights and interests of its individual members, that country cannot be strong, because the country's strength is in the strength of its individual members. After all, what means Armenia? It is not an abstract concept, or a map, right? I think it is us - collectively.
As far as Khorenatsi is concerned, I don’t remember him questioning the ethnicity of Kamsarakan or Khorkhoruni, or some others. But, on the other hand, I have read him about 20 years ago. I also don’t buy your argument that because Armenia didn’t have king in his lifetimes, his credibility can be questioned. If this was the criterion, then we should accept the credibility of only one historian - Pavstos Busand, whoes ethnic origin you may also question I think there is nothing surprising that a lot of Armenian noble families were of non-Armenian origin. This phenomenon was common also in Europe and Russia. Why is it not possible that indeed all of the royal families had foreign origin? I have no such information regarding the Ervandians, but Arshakuny and Bagratouny families surely had originated from foreigners. It seems like all accounts on this regard coincide. To me it is very acceptable, and doesn’t undermine my pride at all It also means that Armenia was an open society.
[This message has been edited by MJ (edited October 05, 2000).]
Posted 05 October 2000 - 07:25 PM
Probably we all do. I don't think talking on the forum proves that much. Our nation has always granted its representatives the right to proceed their own way, that's why we have so many parties, because every Armenian has a solution for Armenia. And every one is almost free to come up with new ones and implement them. That's the lack of "petakan mtatsoghutyun".
If Armenia is us collectively, than we must have collective thinking on at least one subject. Let me give you an example, go to the "Armenian poetry" thread.
Posted 05 October 2000 - 08:25 PM
First, I disagree with your remarks about so many parties. I think we don’t have many parties. We have just a couple, maybe three. I don’t think that the diversity of opinions is a sign of a lack of statesman’s mentality. To the contrary, I think the non-availability of diversity is a sign of absence of mentality, at all. I would love to see something like that happen in Azerbaijan, for example. I indeed think that if the old ideas are bankrupt, then we should come up with new ones. On the other hand, who is the judge of which ideas are right and which ones are wrong?
I don’t find your statement of Armenia being “us” implying lack of diversity is a valid one. I indeed think Armenia is “us,” and that’s why it is diverse. Otherwise I don’t understand what Armenia means. Is it a concept, geographic location, what is it?
Posted 29 November 2000 - 03:46 PM
Those of you who who belongs to Armenian Apostolic church may be interested to know the church's opinion on the mixed marriages issue. Those of you who dont care what the church has to say about it, I still recomend reading this article that I am borrowing from http://www.hyeetch.n...raments_p1.html.
It is an undeniable fact that the more the number of common denominators between individuals entering into the marriage bond, the greater are the probabilities that they may enjoy a peaceful and harmonious life together. Certainly, sharing the same faith and traditions can spare them from many serious problems and strengthen their family ties.
If we consider the theology, teachings and didactic concerns relate to the Marriage Sacrament of the Armenian Apostolic Church, and realize that the Church represents a unity in terms of its doctrine and mission, then we may understand that the Church cannot put itself in a contradictory position, i.e., preach the faithfulness of our beliefs on one hand, and preach the eternality of the same beliefs on the other. Therefore, it should be clear to all, as to why the Armenian Church does not, and cannot, encourage mixed marriages between and Armenian Apostolic and a non-Christian to be absolutely impossible. This is not a matter of prejudice and/or unfair discrimination, but rather, it reflects the principles of remaining faithful to our faith.
If we confess that the utmost objective of the Marriage Sacrament is to view the union of marriage as an integral part of our faith in Christ, which is expressed by the participation of the couple in the life of the Church, that is, the body of Christ, then it becomes clear that the participation of an individual outside of our faith, or religion in the Marriage Sacrament can ultimately be destructive to the integrity of the Church¡¦s doctrines as well as to the self-respect and dignity of the non-Apostolic believer.
All the sacraments of our Church, including marriage, originate with the Sacrament of Baptism. Therefore, it is an absolute prerequisite for marriage that both candidates be Christian believers, baptized and confirmed in the name of the Holy trinity, for they are called upon to be the people of God and members of the Church. Those who are fundamentally opposed to the beliefs, doctrine and mission of the church, should not choose ecclesiastical marriage as the means of commencing their conjugal life.
When we look upon the issue in its literal context, the only "mixed marriage", which can take place within the Armenian Church is the one between an Armenian Apostolic and person belonging to a non-Armenian Apostolic Church.
The Armenian Apostolic Church considers Churches as Christian and orthodox if they specifically confess the Divinity of the Holy Trinity, believe in the perfection and unity of the Divine and human natures of Christ and use the formula, "In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" during baptism.
As stated, the Armenian Church does not encourage such mixed marriages; nevertheless, it does not refuse to perform them either, since, in terms of its mission, it must care for the spiritual well-being of the Christian believers. At the same time, it is thought that the non-Armenian Apostolic Christian can share the ecclesiastical Sacrament to a certain extent without being unfaithful to his/her church and beliefs.
This "deviation" from the accepted ways, in ecclesiastical terms, is called "economy", i.e. to utilize the Church¡¦s mission with hope for the future.
It must be clear, however, that the participation of a non-Armenian Apostolic in the rite of the Marriage Sacrament of the Armenian Church does not result in automatic change in the confession of faith of the individual; nor does it grant him/her the right to participate in other sacraments of the Armenian Church.
Often, however, after acquaintance and some deliberations, the Candidate may wish to accept the Armenian Apostolicism, either prior to the exchange of the martial vows or subsequently. In such cases, the wish of the candidate is naturally granted, once he/she has received the necessary doctrinal instructions.
In any event, the Armenian Church does not force, nor does it exert pressure on others to accept Armenian Apostolicism. The candidates are accepted within the Church only when they apply for it by their own free will.
There are three classifications of mixed marriages in general, non-theological sense of the word:
¡P Individuals from non-Christian religious or heretical sects;
¡P Individuals from non-Apostolic Christian Churches;
¡P Individuals from other Apostolic Christian Churches.
The Armenian Apostolic Church blesses the Sacrament of Marriage between an individual of these classifications and an Armenian Apostolic after the following conditions have been met.
Individuals of non-Christian religious and/or heretical sects:
¡P Marriage between an Armenian Apostolic and a non-Christian is prohibited as long as the latter has not expressed the desire to accept our Church¡¦s confession of faith, baptism and mission through its sacraments, by his/her own free will in an explicit manner.
¡P The following are regarded as non-Christian and heretical; Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Taoism, Paganism, Zoroastrianism, Fetishism, Naturalism, and Atheism. Among the schismatic faiths are Mormonism, Jehovah¡¦s Witness, Scientology, Christian Scientist, Salvation Army, Quakers, etc.
¡P First, these individuals should express their desire to become a member of our Church, then receive serious instructions in its catechism, accept its rites, get baptized, and, in this way, obtain membership in the Armenian Church under the supervision of the Pastor.
¡P In such cases, the candidates are required to confirm, with a written promise, that they shall raise and instruct their children in accordance to the doctrines and teachings of the Armenian Apostolic Church.
Individuals belonging to non-Apostolic Churches:
¡P By the term "non-Apostolic", we refer to those Christian Churches, which were not founded by the apostles, and by their doctrines they deviate from the teachings of the churches founded on Apostolic traditions, particularly, in their perception and priesthood. By non-Apostolic churches in general we understand the traditional Protestant or Evangelical churches, such as Lutheran, Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.
¡P In this case as well, the marriage of an Armenian Apostolic to a non-Apostolic individual is prohibited in the Armenian Church and according to its rites, as long as the individual doesn¡¦t express the desire to accept our Church¡¦s confession of faith in an unsolicited and explicit manner, acting on his/her own free will.
¡P These individuals should also be instructed in the catechism of the Armenian Church and accept its doctrine. If they are baptized, they must be confirmed and take communion according to the rite of the Armenian Church and, in this way, obtain membership in the Armenian Church, under the supervision of the pastor.
In such cases, the candidates are required to give a written promise, that they will raise and bring up their children according to the doctrines and teachings of the Armenian Apostolic Church.
Individuals belonging to other Apostolic Churches:
¡P By "Apostolic Church", we mean all those churches which are considered to have originated through apostolic tradition and which accept the Holy Trinity, the Nicene Creed, the Church¡¦s seven sacraments and the Church¡¦s hierarchy.
Those classified as Apostolic Churches are: the Oriental Orthodox Churches, the Eastern Orthodox Churches and the Catholic Church.
¡P As stated above, the greater the common bonds existing between the two candidates for marriage, the higher the probability for a more solid marriage. However, when an Armenian Apostolic and a non-Armenian Apostolic decide to get married, the Armenian Church will grant their wish, after examining and satisfying the following conditions:
o Verify and confirm that the non-Armenian Apostolic candidate has been baptized and confirmed by his/her church and/or administer whatever is necessary and proper.
o Acquaint him/her with the doctrine and history of the Armenian Church.
o Enroll him/her as a member of the Church, upon his/her request.
o Receive assurance that, after the wedding the children will be brought up and educated in accordance to the teachings of the Armenian Church.
Forbidden marriages according to the Canon regarding incest:
¡P Parents with their own children, grandchildren or great grandchildren
¡P Brothers and sisters with each other.
¡P Uncles and aunts with nieces and nephews
¡P Foster parents with foster children
¡P Foster children with the children of foster parents
¡P Godfathers with goddaughters
¡P Godfathers with the mothers of their godsons
¡P Godchildren with the children of their godfather
¡P Godmothers with their godsons
¡P Godmothers with the father of godsons
¡P Brothers-in-law with sisters-in-law
[This message has been edited by surorus (edited November 29, 2000).]
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