53 replies to this topic

[sen_Vahan]

Living in the US one starts to think more and more about the Genocide issue and a probable solution to the problem. Whereas there are those doing certain steps to normalize the relations btw Armenia and Turkey, such as TARC, most of us do just reading, talking, thinking, etc. And it seems there is no coherence in our thougts around this vital issue.
There was a Genocide Commemoration day recently around here where Armenians as well as Turks were present. I could not help thinking that we already don't know what we want and we don't have a real, constructive idea of how to find a dialogue with Turks. One of the invited scholars started to bring old sayings about the genocide, what the genocide means, that 2.5 mln Armenians lived in the Ottoman Empire, and the other one went even further answering Turkish students after the lecture that if the genocide is recognized "those" provinces whould be given back to Armenia. Turks' reply was "Ok, thank you." Is this how we are going to form relations with Turkey by recycling stupid things?
Talking with the Armenians after the Commemoration I figured out that everybody has different opinions about this issue. Why does this happen? Are our political organizations different around this problem, do we have clear approach how to normalize the relations with Turkey? Even an easier question might be asked - do we know what we want, do we know the official position of the state of Armenia? Didn't this become something for just keeping the ethnic identity?

I would like to know your points.

Vahan

[THOTH]

Very good points and questions....of course there is no way I can answer for other Armenians.

For me - I want recognition from Turkey and the world. I want the "history" to me made right - pretty much uncontested - that our people and nation suffered a great wrong - in all respects equivalant in horror and barbarity to that of the Holocaust (for example...I don't mean to be making a comparision here per se...).

I want recognition - again from Turkey and the world - that Armenians were driven from their historic homelands...but I do not see any relevance or reality to any kind of mass land claims with any changing of national soveriegnty - though Ani should be made fully accesable to Armenia - and perhaps could be at least a symbolic gesture from the Turks to cede it to Armenian - such a small piece of property with no relevance/value to the Turks...).

Certainly I think that Turkey (and the Turks) must humble itself/themselves before all Armenians and ask for forgiveness (and certainly stop these outrageous counter claims). I think that Turkey should offer some compensation (at some point - and considering how it is able) - though this is not as imporatnt to me as proper recognition.

Turkey should provide Armenians with speical status to purchase property and live in Turkey if they wish. Turkey should be required to recognize and protect Armenian monuments, any remaining structures of signifigance and sacred sites and the like. And the Turks must teach the truth to their people and not attempt to bury the history/presence of Armenians in Anatolia and in the history of that land - prior to and after the arrival of the Turks and establishment of their Empire.

And I hope to see a reconcilliation between our peoples - and this requires some degree of reasonableness and understanding and forgiveness from the Armenian side...

Obviously we have a very long way to go before any of these things is close to reality...

Hows that?

[Stormig]

Actually, Turkey should cease protecting all Armenian monuments and such outside the touristic regions (that pretty much leaves out all Armenian stuff and the main attention-gatherers are the Greek and Roman stuff) and leave them to UNESCO - or something. Well, at least Ani should be on the World Heritage List, so that her rape is at least stopped.

[Stormig]

Also, the "thank you" said there means a lot. That Turk there probably WAS thanking sincerely. I leave the rest to your interpretation.

[Sasun]

...though Ani should be made fully accesable to Armenia - and perhaps could be at least a symbolic gesture from the Turks to cede it to Armenian - such a small piece of property with no relevance/value to the Turks...).

I hope that we will be able at some point to realistically claim at least some portion of Western Armenia. But if not I think it would be even more significant if Turkey ceded mount Ararat (certainly a bigger territory but not much valuable, maybe militarily it is useful). I mean, could you imagine we actually had Ararat? Of course Ani could be attached to that piece of land.

At any event, assuming that the Genocide has been recognized by everyone including Turkey, I don't think it would be easy to convince the generations of Armenians that land claims should not be made, for whatever justification. On a simplisitic level, it is like proving the crime but not convicting the criminal. Maybe it will have the same degree of unfairness as not recognizing the Genocide in the minds of Armenian people. With all the good will on part of Turkey that we hope there will be, a lot of Armenians would feel suspicious its sincerety as long as Turkey rejects any land claims. One could analyze this as an exercise in game theory.

Yes, really, we need to think about these and other questions mentioned above more seriously than we do. What happens after recognition? What does the majority of Armenian people think: do we have land claims or not? If yes, then exactly what lands are we talking about? It would be good to also find out what part of the Armenians worldwide and in Armenia really want to pursue the recognition of the genocide. It seems to me (and I could be wrong) that many are simply indifferent.

I think the answer to Sen_Vahan's question about the Armenian state's official position is that it doesn't really have anything more than international recognition of the genocide. Non-officially, the question is used as a small but effective tool to internationally embarass and upset Turkey.

[THOTH]

Kocharian stated - correctly - that the State of Armenia has no land claims whatsoever against Turkey with respect to the Genocide. Kocharian is a very clever man.

As much as I wish - like you and other Armenians whose families were from Anatolia - that we could have our ancient homeland back - I don't think that in the traditional sense (of nations with borders...) it can or will ever happen. One cannot really expect turkey to just give up this land. Other nations who have taken land (in the past) have not given it up. Remember this land was conquered in the 11th and 12th Centuries. There has been no Armenian nation in Anatolia since this time. Additionally, it would be immoral to take it back by force even if it could be done. Those who live on this land now are largely ignorant and innocent of any crime against us. And we would be forced to commit similar atrocities to seize "land" ...it would certainly put us in the best of companies - no? We must understand that - for all practical purposes - that is no longer Armenian land - and it never will be - not in the way that it was. Others live there now. Even if Turkey were to hand it over to Armenia or such - and all Armenians would be invited to come settle - how many would actually come? Some certainly (but compared to the numbers of Turks & Kurds who live there now?) - and look at Armenia today. People migrate towards oppurtunity and a good life for their families. What is there for Armenians now in Anatolia except for memories?

As for the Turks giving Ararat back. I don't see that either. The mountain has meaning to them and others as well - even if it perhaps has a much more central meaning for us. Ani clearly has no value to any group but Armenians - except perhaps for some future tourist value - even then...

And again- like Kocharian - I seperate the issue of personal land claims/compensation with that of state to state issues. Even there - if Armenia has land claims about Turkey - they arise not from the genocide - but after, when there was, briefly a republic which had internationally (treaty) recognized borders - and there is certainly no benefit making any issue of such (now) regardless...(and how pragmatic would it be to acknowledge such now? ...it would only confirm Turkeih paranoia and harden them even further...)

And i don't think that Armenia has a care to embarrass Turkey or such. In many ways just the opposite - they wish to be good neighbors. I think that overwhelmingly they want assurance that they will not be swallowed up and they want the oppurtunity to trade and prosper in the region. The Turks are the prime factor in each to a great degree...but certainly the Genocide issue is in the heart of every Armenian - so even if not in pure self-interest - it cannot be entirely forgotten or tossed aside...thus we sacrifice and are victimized still...

[Sasun]

THOTH, thanks for your comments. I think I clearly see your take on the issue, and it is certainly realistic for today. By the way, I tend to share your view that as it stands now change of borders is not realistic. I also agree that it is very important to state clearly, as Kocharian does, that Armenia doesn't have any land claims to Turkey. Saying otherwise would mean something like declaring a war - a very good pretext for Turkey to take counter measures.

What I really think we need today is a sort of a contingency plan for the future. Maybe more than one such plan. But for that we need a public debate. I don't know what most other Armenians think we should do.

Sometimes I think that a smart thing to do for Turkey would be to recognize the genocide and allow any Armenian (like you say above) to freely live in our ancestral homeland. Because there won't be many Armenians who would do so, and the question would be solved, apparently in the favor of Turkey. But I do hope this is not the case, that many Armenians would want to go, maybe not right away.

Regarding Armenia's international policiy, I think that we don't really need to embarass Turkey, but when Turkey is anti-Armenia (e.g. blockade, denying the genocide ) then the policy of international recognition of the genocide (presumably only a moral issue) turns into a tool against Turkish policy. And I find it incorrect that the previous Armenian gov't didn't do so.
Sorry, the way I understand there is hardly any morality in international politics Although we do understand that in this case having such policy is perfectly moral for Armenia.

[Arpa]

Good points Vahan.
The above subject topic may better be described as Armenian-Turkish Monologues (plural).
What is you definition of "dialogue"?
We have been hearing this word for quite sometime.
I have said this on numerous occasions, perhaps as recently as when we were conversing with Ali (Aurguplu). We came to the conclusion that two monologues do not a dialogue make. Two singers singing different tunes don't make a duet. In fact the whole music may be lost in a din and disc(h)ord.
As to reparations and repatriation, we may want to remember where Ali and I converged, when I said someting akin to "in kind" his affirmation was;"What is lost to the sword can oly be regained by the sword". Monologue, dialogue or any other "logos" will not resolve the problem.
How do we get into a dialogue?
There is no doubt that Turkey is lying. Armenian treason, uprisal, betrayal, war, famine, relocation for the protection of the subjects etc.

Now let's see if we are speaking the truth.
Myth- We were innocent victims and martyrs.
Innocent? Why? We were not innocent and rightfully so. We had awakened from a deep stupor of a millenium and realized that we had lost 90% of our lands and we were at the risk of losing all, including our identity and heritage. Can we be man enough and say these things intead of hiding behind such slogans of "innocence" and "maryrdom". The latter is the most disgusting term that some of still insist on. How were we "maryrs"? Did we extend our necks to be cut for cause, like religion or faith?

Nobody likes a sore loser, nobody likes a whiner. Is it a wonder that the world is turning a deaf ear to our plight? How long would you tolerate a constant whiner?
Why should the world correct a wrong that we ourselves brought upon us? How many times must the world do that?
Let's face it, we messed it up big time. Only we can correct it.
WE rose at the worst time ever, at a time when the world was busy livking their own wounds, when Russia was in the throes of a catastrophic upheaval and revolution.
What did we base our claims? Who had promised us assistance? Was it all in our imagination? Why did not we recognize the fact that the Ottoman Empire was a world power, armed to the teeth, and we poor peasants, did not even own a penknife. Whch lands were we struggling for? Tiflis, Istanbul, Tabriz or Isfahan? How could we defend our own lands when our entire intelligentsia and wealth was in Istanbul?

Can we stop lying? The world does not believe us. We even have doubts ourselves, we don't believe the lies that we perpetrated in the first place. There will be no dialogue until both parties start speaking the truth in their own turn. Until then we will keep singing "Dle Yaman" and they will continue singing "Yalan Yar" (Yalan=lie, untruth in Turkish).
Until we stand as a MAN, the Turks will dimiss us as "whining children".

Kocharian is no fool. He knows that the only was is.... see above. WE have not even finished the job to the "east", are we in any shape to face the "west"ern Armenia?

[THOTH]

Sasun, Arpa - very god points. And i certianly don't know any real answers - wish I did. I still calim that we were "innocent" - even - to some degree acknowledging certain (violent/reolutionary) activities...that, as you have said, had to happen - still, by and large the Armenian people were "loyal" (or simply just not politically involved) and innocent. And your points about the wealth and intlectuals being urban and primarily in/from Istanbul is also well taken. And are these the divisions that divide us still - or is it different/for differentr reasons today?

[Arpa]

Sasun, Arpa - very god points. And i certianly don't know any real answers - wish I did. I still calim that we were "innocent" -

Can we say NAIVE instead?
AS to Turkish ellgations of our betrayal and collaborating with the "enemy". Here is another lie (ours).
Yes we did collaborate with the Russians, with the British and with the French? Was it wise, specially at such a volatile time? The truth is that nations collaborate with oters against a common enemy. Did not the Americans collaborate with the Rusians during the Afghanistant saga? Did not the US collaborate with Syria,(a pariah and a terrorist nation according to US policy?) during the Gulf War I?
Why are we afraid whwn the Turks say so? Who should we have relied on? The Turks or the Azeris? No, maybe Kaysar's Germany!!

[sen_Vahan]

Arpa,

The above subject topic may better be described as Armenian-Turkish Monologues (plural).
What is you definition of "dialogue"?
We have been hearing this word for quite sometime.
I have said this on numerous occasions, perhaps as recently as when we were conversing with Ali (Aurguplu). We came to the conclusion that two monologues do not a dialogue make. Two singers singing different tunes don't make a duet. In fact the whole music may be lost in a din and disc(h)ord.

In my opinion, this is because the armenian side has its ambitions at the first place which does not let the dialogue begin. Not sure about the turks but they always seem to be more objective and less ambitious than our people. An armenian intelligent is having a hard time to face the reality and facts which is not true about the turkish one.

As to reparations and repatriation, we may want to remember where Ali and I converged, when I said someting akin to "in kind" his affirmation was;"What is lost to the sword can oly be regained by the sword". Monologue, dialogue or any other "logos" will not resolve the problem.
How do we get into a dialogue?
There is no doubt that Turkey is lying. Armenian treason, uprisal, betrayal, war, famine, relocation for the protection of the subjects etc.

I don't understand what you mean by Turkey is lying. Are we doing the same? And I have to agree with Ali that the-lost-by-sword may be taken back in the same way. Lands can be taken only by war - direct war or diplomatic.

Now let's see if we are speaking the truth.
Myth- We were innocent victims and martyrs.
Innocent? Why? We were not innocent and rightfully so. We had awakened from a deep stupor of a millenium and realized that we had lost 90% of our lands and we were at the risk of losing all, including our identity and heritage. Can we be man enough and say these things intead of hiding behind such slogans of "innocence" and "maryrdom". The latter is the most disgusting term that some of still insist on. How were we "maryrs"? Did we extend our necks to be cut for cause, like religion or faith?

Although I agree but I cannot imagine how stupid the armenian intelligencia in the Ottoman Empire could be not to use all the ways to stop the massacre. Moreover, who was one of the financial sources for the Young Turks?

WE rose at the worst time ever, at a time when the world was busy livking their own wounds, when Russia was in the throes of a catastrophic upheaval and revolution.

Well, if you are not sure you will win then the battle does not make sense. No? If you know that the result may be a massacred population then you are going in the wrong direction. Didn't armenians know all this?

What did we base our claims? Who had promised us assistance? Was it all in our imagination? Why did not we recognize the fact that the Ottoman Empire was a world power, armed to the teeth, and we poor peasants, did not even own a penknife. Whch lands were we struggling for? Tiflis, Istanbul, Tabriz or Isfahan? How could we defend our own lands when our entire intelligentsia and wealth was in Istanbul?

Exactly.

Kocharian is no fool. He knows that the only was is.... see above. WE have not even finished the job to the "east", are we in any shape to face the "west"ern Armenia?

Hoho, very ambitious, I am not going to fight for the west, and I am not sure there is enough potential for that in Armenia. Maybe I just imagine what it could be to deal with Turkey in any way other than diplomacy.



Edit Note: I hope you do not mind I corrected the quote problem

Edited by Azat, 05 May 2003 - 03:17 PM.

[sen_Vahan]

sorry for the last post, I did it in a wrong way

[Sasun]

Arpa, you are making a valid point that some Armenians were trying to collaborate with Russians and Europeans, and they were doing so naively. I think that's the better word to describe. I also agree that it is not a crime to fight for ones freedom. However, those who did fight were clearly a minority among Armenians, and the majority who were not involved in fighting or politics (or anything other than their daily lifes) were 'innocent' of the 'crimes' that Turks attribute to them. We can of course blame the Armenian leadership and political parties at that time for their follies, but what we don't understand, I think, is that it is a lot easier to see the past than predict what was going to happen at the time. First of all, there were no experienced political leaders, and we know why, because there was no established and experienced Armenian political entity where one could possiblly get experience. There was also very little political knowledge other than partisan ideology and romantic ideas from Europe. Secondly, the Armenian leaders believed in the Young Turk organization. I wonder how one could predict that they were lying, and that they were planning a full scale genocide.
If there was any guilt on part of Armenians, I think it was because they didn't organize a nationwide resistance to any Turkish government, instead of serving in the Ottoman Army and being loyal. Then again, it is easier to say this than to be around at that time and do so.

[sen_Vahan]

Very good points and questions....of course there is no way I can answer for other Armenians.

For me - I want recognition from Turkey and the world. I want the "history" to me made right - pretty much uncontested - that our people and nation suffered a great wrong - in all respects equivalant in horror and barbarity to that of the Holocaust (for example...I don't mean to be making a comparision here per se...).

I want recognition - again from Turkey and the world - that Armenians were driven from their historic homelands...but I do not see any relevance or reality to any kind of mass land claims with any changing of national soveriegnty - though Ani should be made fully accesable to Armenia - and perhaps could be at least a symbolic gesture from the Turks to cede it to Armenian - such a small piece of property with no relevance/value to the Turks...).

Certainly I think that Turkey (and the Turks) must humble itself/themselves before all Armenians and ask for forgiveness (and certainly stop these outrageous counter claims). I think that Turkey should offer some compensation (at some point - and considering how it is able) - though this is not as imporatnt to me as proper recognition.

Turkey should provide Armenians with speical status to purchase property and live in Turkey if they wish. Turkey should be required to recognize and protect Armenian monuments, any remaining structures of signifigance and sacred sites and the like. And the Turks must teach the truth to their people and not attempt to bury the history/presence of Armenians in Anatolia and in the history of that land - prior to and after the arrival of the Turks and establishment of their Empire.

And I hope to see a reconcilliation between our peoples - and this requires some degree of reasonableness and understanding and forgiveness from the Armenian side...

Obviously we have a very long way to go before any of these things is close to reality...

Hows that?

So,is this the turning point in our attitude, THOTH? If an armenian scholar claims lands, and as we know there's a lot like him, but many others just want the recognition of the crime then we are splitted. What I can see is that more and more armenians change their attitude meaning they stop talking about lands and just want the crime to be recognized.

[sen_Vahan]

Also, the "thank you" said there means a lot. That Turk there probably WAS thanking sincerely. I leave the rest to your interpretation.

Yes, I think he was doing it sincerely although I am not sure what you mean. He heard what he was expecting to.

[sen_Vahan]

I have another question to all,

Almost 90 years of the history after the genocide and nothing is really done. How much time it is going to take us to educate our people such that they keep away or even get rid of their ambitions and start thinking constructively to solve this problem. Ain't we become sick talking, talking about the massacres, about how our ancestors were killed, etc and doing no steps to proceed.
Are we ready to face the recognition? Won't most of us in Diaspora lose their identity after Turkey recognizes? What does really bind us to each other in this prosperous country? Every time having a meeting with armenians here I am having a sad feeling that it is NOT the language that binds us, it is NOT the common country that we share, it is NOT the history of Armenia but it is the genocide and the concept of the armenian church - the concept because I am not sure about its functions.

[Twilight Bark]

Hello all,
It's been a while, so I'll warm up by commenting on this topic.

As we discussed it many times here, many of us think that asking for lands outright is not only unrealistic, but also morally and philosophically questionable. However, asking for the restoration of rights (as a natural, neutral remedy) including re-settlement for those that wish it, and cultural and administrative autonomy for the settlers (to make the remedy meaningful) are not ridiculous propositions although pseudo-realists' knee-jerk reaction would be to characterize them as such. Whether such re-settlement is desirable is nobody's business but those that wish to do it. As for "punishment", I think that is not the proper context. A more proper term would be "paying a debt". Whatever it is, it would have to be devised in a way that would foster more friendly relations between the two peoples, rather than resentment on the part of the Turks.

If the Armenians had recovered from the trauma, the recognition business would be relevant only for Turkey. They are the ones that need to understand themselves and be able to truly move forward. The fact that they think it is not an important issue for them does not make it so. Only if the world were so simple. "I don't think it's important, so it's not". In what other context would one think it is a sane approach?

But most Armenians (who still identify themselves as such) have not recovered from the trauma, and are obsessed by the memory of it. In our case, the only thing at stake is to assure ourselves and the world (which does not really care one way or the other) that we were indeed victimized. Not a compelling "material" cause, but here we are. Even if something is not actually important, it becomes so simply because we think it is. This is of course so often the case with all facets of our individual lives as well. Unfortunately, the equivalent of a "shrink" for nations does not exist. They have to deal with it in a much more brutal environment.

If it were up to me, I would say let's just move on. Yes, remember it, and teach it. But don't let it become a block to your progress. Let it just be a block to the perpetrator's progress. But it is not up to me.

One ugly solution is to have a fake, hollow, "recognition" by Turkey, as Ali Suat suggested, coupled with a stupid guarantee by Armenia to not ask for land that it is already not asking (thus inaccurately admitting that Armenians were the initiator of the "chain of events", as well as the block to reconciliation). Large sections of the diaspora would melt away, their perverted center of culture having been taken away, and Armenia still not exerting a strong enough cultural pull. People and their offsprings would then move on, some as Armenians, most as entirely assimilated members of their host cultures, with newly assumed cultural identities.

I think I have indicated what the "beautiful" solution would be. But that counts on a true enlightenment among the Turkish elite (the population would follow, some silly "they are trying to break it to their population nicely" pontifications notwithstanding), which is happening at a snail's pace.

The ugly solution is unlikely to be acceptable to the Armenians, while the beautiful one has negligible chance of being acceptable to Turkey in the short term.

So there is good reason to be depressed. Those that can, should move on and focus their energies on contributing to Armenia and Armenians everywhere in tangible ways, or on raising their children as good Armenians that will do so in the future.

Twilight Bark

[THOTH]

I feel that all who have commented on this thread thus far have a good understandfing and perspective on this issue. I don't think this is at all the case for many Armenians - and certainly not most Armenian leadership/political entities that I am aware of (outside of perhaps the Armenian Government itself - which seems very well to understand its reality...at least with its near neighbors and it seems the relevance and the drawbacks/stumbling block of the genocide and of the continued falling out with the Turks).

I agree with your very concise and insightful post Sasun concerning the (different) naivities of both the Armenians (as a people) of Anatolia and of the political parties prior/during and after the war(s). The latter were idealists, children almost - politically speaking - who believed too much in the lies of others and who falsely thought (as much of the West did) that the Ottoman Empire was terminaly disinigrating (certainly true in part) and failed to see the fortitude and the wrath of the Turks (focused upon the Armenians and remaining minorities) and the ability of the Turks to rise up out of the ashes. The Turks were certainly blessed to have such a visionary, capable and terrible man as Attaturk at just the right time for them...though Talat did his part as well - no?

Prior to the Genocide (obviously) no one could immagine in their wildest nightmares what was to occur. Perhaps even the (Young) Turks themselves (and certainly not the idealistic Armenians who financed and supported them initially) could not have fathomed the lengths and depths they would go to to achieve their ambition. And of course, as in any revolution - particualrly one with such a violent and all encompasing upheaval of the status quo - there is always the danger of extreme actions by extreme/fanatical/desperate/greedy types. But I fear that we paid in (very dear) blood (and more) for a lesson that the world still doesn't fully comprehand (or in our specific case fully accept...perhaps there is just too much guilt to go around?). Thus history has and shall repeat itself - at least in theme and essential outcome (likely ending, one day, in a future genocide of all humanity itself).

As for now - for our situation - and this idea of Genocide recognition and beyond. Well I must agree with TBs (gloomy) assessment. Obviously (seemingly) much of the Diaporan Armenian political leadership understands at least some of this - thus they really see no need to change their (failed) tactics - being more tied to the perpetuation of the victimhood then truly wishing a solution. For this solution (Turkish recognition etc) would likely mean an end for their reason to exsist and an end of their unflagging support. Such a tragic shame - again we remain victims of genocide - but this time by both the Turks (Turkish Government/elites) and by our own representatives.

Again - I don't know the answers. I believe that I have a somewhat unique perspective however. Though I am (at least in part) Armenian - I am in no way connected to any Armenian organizations and I certainly by and large don't live as an Armenian or within an Armenian community. Yet I have educated myself regarding the history and the issues and I acutely feel the pain of our experience and of the tragedys of my family and of my family's family. Still I can also view the Diaspora and Armenians from an outsider (somewhat American perhaps...) perspective - though from a relatively informed (and concerned) vantage. Thus I have come to my conclusions/understanding/opinions...yet I am at a loss as to how to proceed - for myself and for us. This is an issue that I care deeply about. We are still terribly wounded as a people and we are cut off from much of our heritage. I see reconcilliation with the Turks as very important for our future (and equally - or perhaps even more so for theirs!) So for the meanwhile I can only do what I can to reach out to Turks (and Armenians) and do what I can to educate - and perhaps soften some (negative) attitudes that are so hardly held on both sides. And in the meantime I am still listening and learning.

[Twilight Bark]

Also, whether there were Armenians that "rebelled" against the empire is an irrelevant, almost information-free and insight-free issue. Of course there were. All the subjects peoples started agitating against the age-old domination by the empire, and Armenians were no exception. It is absurd to expect otherwise. If anything they were overall the most docile, and tragi-comically the most loyal millet to the very end. Many were led to their slaughter like sheep, thinking it's going to be alright in the end. The relatively unimportant "revolutionaries" provided no real reason for the genocide, even when one takes an immoral stand and tries to justify it as a repugnant but militarily necessary deed, say for example, as Romans would think in ancient times. Armenians were killed and their lands were Turkified because the government correctly estimated that it could get away with it.

So next time the issue of Armenian "revolutionaries" crosses your mind and wonder whether things would be different if there weren't any, you can instead start thinking on whether it would have made a difference if the sun rose from the West instead of the East, with no loss of potential insight to gain. Because there is none to be gained from the exercise.

TB

[sen_Vahan]

TB,

The efforts today need to be directed to openning the borders and lifting the blockade not preserving "good armenians" in diaspora that are always ready to help. We don't need an alternative Armenia we already have one and all the efforts should be made for her. In this respect, I see a great progress in the homeland with the turkish borders opened and the commercial and cultural relations started. For this to happen the genocide problem and all the claims must be solved and put aside. So, it might be that we need something in between the ugly and beautiful solutions by you.
As for the rebellions and whether or not tyhe massacres would take place if armenians did not do anything, russians say "net dima bez ognya", and athough no justifiation can be found for the Young Turk government but armenians had a big influence on their own genocide.