427 replies to this topic

[Rog]

religion is poison (thank you mao) is always and has been a form of tool, to manipulate, to control, to start wars (bush) and commit genocides
if someone has faith in humanity therefor the person can not be an atheist
its a very paradoxical question, the god syndrome, almost everyone has a idea what God is, but no one talks about God when they are rich, full, and happy
why do people remember God when they are down, to feel better, God is just a comfort word for ones who need "him" in the hour of need.

You make a great point about people seeking God only when they are in need. I am a Christian and that is NOT the type of faith I believe in or practice.

Edited by Rog, 13 May 2008 - 08:33 PM.

[garmag]

....
Hey, what do you know! We're all believers. Except obviously my bliefs are better than everyone else's.

Did you mean beliefs or bluffs

This topic should be under the heading of philosophical humor & sarcasm

If you can imagine a doctrin based on humor as religion, humanity would have been served a much better drug for self confort and fulfillment...

[DominO]

Sip,

So what do you actually believe and why do you think your beliefs are superior than others? What are you beliefs based upon?

Roger

Never heard of sarcasm?

[Sip]

So what do you actually believe and why do you think your beliefs are superior than others? What are you beliefs based upon?

That is a very general question so almost impossible to answer. What do I believe? In regards to what? I think it is clear by now I do not "believe" in the Bible's version of creation and God. But at the same time, I do not dismiss the possibility of the existence of Gods in various shapes and forms. What set the universe in motion? I have no clue. Where did people come from? Evolution certainly sounds a lot more plausible than creation.

Now the important part of what my beliefs are based upon. My beliefs are based upon observation, logic, and the scientific method. I believe testable hypotheses when they successfully predict future events as opposed to purely explaining past events. This is one of the reasons I am not here telling you evolution is truth since evolution is great at explaining things that have happend in the past but it is very difficult to test it for future outcomes (due to the rate at which it works).

Now why do I think my beliefs are superior? Well obviously by definition my beliefs are superior by the way I arrive at them! If there were superior beliefs to mine, then my bliefs would have changed to the superior ones

[Rog]

That is a very general question so almost impossible to answer. What do I believe? In regards to what? I think it is clear by now I do not "believe" in the Bible's version of creation and God. But at the same time, I do not dismiss the possibility of the existence of Gods in various shapes and forms. What set the universe in motion? I have no clue. Where did people come from? Evolution certainly sounds a lot more plausible than creation.

Yes, I know that you do not believe in the Bible's version of creation. You stated that you do not believe in the Bible's version of God either? Can you explain further what you mean about this?

Now the important part of what my beliefs are based upon. My beliefs are based upon observation, logic, and the scientific method. I believe testable hypotheses when they successfully predict future events as opposed to purely explaining past events. This is one of the reasons I am not here telling you evolution is truth since evolution is great at explaining things that have happend in the past but it is very difficult to test it for future outcomes (due to the rate at which it works).

Now why do I think my beliefs are superior? Well obviously by definition my beliefs are superior by the way I arrive at them! If there were superior beliefs to mine, then my bliefs would have changed to the superior ones

You state that you do not know what "set the universe in motion" and that evolution is more "plausible" for where people came from. Your arguments have no certainty to them. You say you arrive at your beliefs based on observation, logic, and the scientific method. But unless you have exhaustive knowledge and have access to observe and "test" every hypotheses, you have no certainty to your beliefs. You cannot object with certainty against the Christian position because your view is totally uncertain.

You may not accept my viewpoints, but at least my viewpoints are complete and I can give answers. My viewpoint explains where we came from, why we are here, and where we are going.

[Sip]

Yes, I know that you do not believe in the Bible's version of creation. You stated that you do not believe in the Bible's version of God either? Can you explain further what you mean about this?

I will use a specific example since you have addressed it before (regarding the Bible's stance on it). I do not believe there is a God that will punish humans simply for not believing in Him but otherwise are good people. In otherwords, I do not belive a God as grand as that set forth in the Bible would use something as irrelevant as "belief in God" as a requisite for "being good".

Why do I think this? Because as history has shown over and over and over, having "belief in God" does in NO way imply a "good person" and conversely, being a "good person" in NO way implies necessarily having "belief in God."

I can go into other specific examples why I don't believe in the Bible's version of God but I would think one example is necessary and sufficient.

[Sip]

You state that you do not know what "set the universe in motion" and that evolution is more "plausible" for where people came from. Your arguments have no certainty to them.

Is having "no certainty" a bad thing?

You say you arrive at your beliefs based on observation, logic, and the scientific method. But unless you have exhaustive knowledge and have access to observe and "test" every hypotheses, you have no certainty to your beliefs. You cannot object with certainty against the Christian position because your view is totally uncertain.

Nice try to circumvent things but there is a problem in what you are saying. I will give you an example of this whole certainty/uncertainty thing: Suppose I come and say "there exist black sheep". You could say "Well that's uncertain. One would have to have exhaustive knowledge to confirm or deny this fact."

But in that case, all I would have to do to establish a VERY high level of certainty, is to produce an actual black sheep as evidence

Now if I come and say "there does NOT exist any black sheep", then we either find a black sheep and with high certainty establish that what I said is wrong, or we don't find a black sheep and then will have to continue treating my statement with uncertainty.

How does this pretain to your God? Well you are saying God exists. I say show it and you resort to the Bible (and the whole circular definition thing which we have already beaten to death ... God put forth the Bible which put forth God and so forth). Of course I am NOT saying there is no God or Gods since that would require exhaustive knowledge which NO human has. But in this case, my uncertainty is justified because of that fact. However, the burden of establishing confidence is on you if you claim there is a God. I don't have to be certain in my position

Hope that made sense.

[Rog]

I will use a specific example since you have addressed it before (regarding the Bible's stance on it). I do not believe there is a God that will punish humans simply for not believing in Him but otherwise are good people. In otherwords, I do not belive a God as grand as that set forth in the Bible would use something as irrelevant as "belief in God" as a requisite for "being good".

Why do I think this? Because as history has shown over and over and over, having "belief in God" does in NO way imply a "good person" and conversely, being a "good person" in NO way implies necessarily having "belief in God."

I can go into other specific examples why I don't believe in the Bible's version of God but I would think one example is necessary and sufficient.

Thank you for the clear example. The problem with your example is that this is NOT what the Bible teaches. The Bible does not teach that God punishes "good" humans for not believing in Him. Nor does it teach that belief in God makes a person good.

The Bible does NOT teach that man is basically "good", but that man is basically "bad" (a sinner). The Bible verses that support this are:

Romans 3:11 "There is none righteous, not even one"
Romans 3:12 "All have turned aside, together they have become useless. There is none who does good, there is not even one."
Isaiah 53:6 "All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way."

Therefore the problem is that man is a sinner and there is a consequence for sin. Romans 6:23 states, "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." God is just and must punish sin. Therefore he can either punish man for sin or can punish someone else. Jesus took the place for you and God punishes Him on the cross. God made a way to be forgiven of your sins and that is through Jesus Christ sacrifice on the cross, therefore if you reject Christ, God will reject you and you will not be forgiven. That is why we say that if you do not believe in Christ, God will punish you. Fundamentally behind that statement is that God is going to punish man's sins, and belief in Jesus will cause God to substitute the death of Jesus instead of you being punished for your sins.

Therefore, you example is insufficient because the Bible does NOT teach what you say it does.

If you have another example, I would love to hear it.

I agree with you that belief in God does not make a man good. I have many moral friends who are not believers. And I know people who claim to be Christians but do not live moral lives. The Bible was not written to make bad people good, but to make sinners forgiven. And those who are forgiven of their sins are to live like it they are forgiven, lives that obey God's commands.

[Sip]

Thank you for the clear example. The problem with your example is that this is NOT what the Bible teaches. The Bible does not teach that God punishes "good" humans for not believing in Him. Nor does it teach that belief in God makes a person good.

The problem is your definitnion fo "good" and my definition of "good" are very different.

I asked you once if person A and person B are both good people, as in they both live identical lives, don't hurt another soul, eat vegeterian, etc etc all the good stuff, except A believes in God and B doesn't, what happens. You said:

Ok, I will give you a simple answer. Yes, person A will go to heaven and person B will go to hell.

THIS is the problem Rog. You (and your Bible and Your God) define "good" depending on whether one believes in God or not and completely dismiss what really matters which are actions (not beliefs). That is the version of God I really don't care for. I do NOT think that an all powerful God would define "goodness" in terms of sheer beliefs.

[LK82]

Hi, I'm looking to purchase the "How the freak do I get into Heaven for DUMMIES" book.

[Rog]

The problem is your definitnion fo "good" and my definition of "good" are very different.

Ok, so let's talk about this. What is your definition of good? What do you think my definition of good is?

I asked you once if person A and person B are both good people, as in they both live identical lives, don't hurt another soul, eat vegeterian, etc etc all the good stuff, except A believes in God and B doesn't, what happens. You said:

Yes, I did state this A will go to heaven and B will not. Why? Because man cannot be good enough to reach heaven. Therefore if man tries to reach heaven by his own "goodness" he will fail. You would have to be absolutely perfect, never sinning one time in order to reach heaven. Since all men are sinners and God will punish sin, there is only one remedy which is belief in Jesus Christ. Because Christ lived a perfect life and died for you and me. He took the punishment for sin that we deserve. Therefore since A and B are both sinners, A has his sin forgiven and B does not.

THIS is the problem Rog. You (and your Bible and Your God) define "good" depending on whether one believes in God or not and completely dismiss what really matters which are actions (not beliefs). That is the version of God I really don't care for. I do NOT think that an all powerful God would define "goodness" in terms of sheer beliefs.

Incorrect, I never stated that "good" depends on whether one believes in God or not. I stated that a unbeliever can be moral. But the problem is not whether one is outwardly good, because man has an inner problem and that is sin. Once again, man has a problem with sin and that must be forgiven, or man will bear the punishment for it.

[DominO]

Nice try to circumvent things but there is a problem in what you are saying. I will give you an example of this whole certainty/uncertainty thing: Suppose I come and say "there exist black sheep". You could say "Well that's uncertain. One would have to have exhaustive knowledge to confirm or deny this fact."

But in that case, all I would have to do to establish a VERY high level of certainty, is to produce an actual black sheep as evidence

Now if I come and say "there does NOT exist any black sheep", then we either find a black sheep and with high certainty establish that what I said is wrong, or we don't find a black sheep and then will have to continue treating my statement with uncertainty.

How does this pretain to your God? Well you are saying God exists. I say show it and you resort to the Bible (and the whole circular definition thing which we have already beaten to death ... God put forth the Bible which put forth God and so forth). Of course I am NOT saying there is no God or Gods since that would require exhaustive knowledge which NO human has. But in this case, my uncertainty is justified because of that fact. However, the burden of establishing confidence is on you if you claim there is a God. I don't have to be certain in my position

Hope that made sense.

[Sip]

Since all men are sinners and God will punish sin, there is only one remedy which is belief in Jesus Christ.

Incorrect, I never stated that "good" depends on whether one believes in God or not.

To me, those two sentences completely contradict. And again I will say it is because you and I have VERY different definitions of what "good" is. Let's even forget the specific word "good" and use the term "heaven-worthy".

You (and supposedly the Bible) are saying a man can ONLY be "heaven-worthy" if he believs in God (as a necessary condition). I am saying beliefs are entirely irrelevant in who should be "heaven-worthy". In life, ONLY actions matter. If you donate $80 billion dollars to charity, that makes you a GOOD person. I don't care if you did it for tax purposes or not or if you were trying to impress a girl. Also, if you sit at home thinking about having sex with dead babies, that does NOT make you a necropedaphiliac or something.

Edited by Sip, 15 May 2008 - 01:26 PM.

[Rog]

To me, those two sentences completely contradict. And again I will say it is because you and I have VERY different definitions of what "good" is. Let's even forget the specific word "good" and use the term "heaven-worthy".

You (and supposedly the Bible) are saying a man can ONLY be "heaven-worthy" if he believs in God (as a necessary condition). I am saying beliefs are entirely irrelevant in who should be "heaven-worthy". In life, ONLY actions matter. If you donate $80 billion dollars to charity, that makes you a GOOD person. I don't care if you did it for tax purposes or not or if you were trying to impress a girl. Also, if you sit at home thinking about having sex with dead babies, that does NOT make you a necropedaphiliac or something.

So are you defining good as doing something that you deem to be a good action? (i.e. giving $80 billion to charity).

Sure, we can use the term "heaven-worthy." Let me restate my positions because I feel you are using straw man arguments against me. I will be as clear as possible.

1. The Bible teaches that all men are sinners (Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God). Therefore, since men are sinners, they are not "heaven-worthy.'
2. There is an eternal penalty for sin (Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.")

So how does a person become "heaven-worthy"? There are two ways, either doing "good" deeds and earning his way to heaven, or by believing in Jesus Christ who paid the penalty for our sin.

3. The Bible says that it is impossible to earn your way to heaven (Ephesians 2:8 "God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.")

4. The Bible says that it is by believing (trusting) in Jesus Christ that we can become heaven-worthy (John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, 16 that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him).

I am saying beliefs are entirely irrelevant in who should be "heaven-worthy". In life, ONLY actions matter.

You are contradicting yourself. Do you believe actions are important in who is "heaven-worthy." Beliefs matter and are entirely relevant.

I will say this about actions. They are important in life, but they are not our actions that cause us to be heaven-worthy. They are the actions of the savior, Jesus Christ who died upon the cross for your sins and mine. (Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"). You can give up trying to be a good person and place your trust in the best person, Jesus Christ.

But this does not negate the fact that actions of a Christian are important. The actions do not cause us to be heaven-worthy, but they confirm that we believe in Jesus Christ. For example, if a person claims to be a Christian but has no good deeds in his life, than his claim is questionable (i.e. a hypocrite). But a person who believes (trusts) in Christ will go to Church, pray, give to charity, help the poor, etc. because he is forgiven by God and this reflects his new life.

[Sip]

So are you defining good as doing something that you deem to be I will say this about actions. They are important in life, but they are not our actions that cause us to be heaven-worthy.

You are repeating exactly what I said about how you see things. I don't see what your point is. I already know you think that way.

[nairi]

Also, if you sit at home thinking about having sex with dead babies, that does NOT make you a necropedaphiliac or something.

Only a twisted mind would come up with such an example!

Edited by nairi, 16 May 2008 - 03:50 AM.

[LK82]

Holy crap, are you guys still on this topic?

[LK82]

I've decided to give religon a chance. For a while I will only eat and drink Kosher foods from Coffee bean. LMAO. Let me know if you guys starts seeing a halo above my head anytime soon.

[Ashot]

LK WATCH OUT BUDDY, ALL I SEE IS THIS TO RED DOTS THAT APPEARED ON YOUR FOREHEAD... IS THAT THE SIGN OF THE HALO RING?

[LK82]

Why are you writing in large caps, does that mean youre screaming? There are no red dots on my forehead are you hallucinating?

Edited by LK82, 20 May 2008 - 11:31 AM.