53 replies to this topic

[nairi]

Boys will be boys and some girls too.

Bell:

Your eyes: the deep blue sea,
your brows: the clouds at night.
Your cheek and face are aglow
and rose-petal-bright.
Wherever you go
no need for candle-light.
The shimmer of your breasts
brings the dead back to life.

[bellthecat]

Ahhhh, sweet. If it was written to a real woman then she was as lucky to receive such words as the poet was to be inspired by her beauty. Would women these days appreciate or deserve getting such things written to them, I wonder?

Is that another of Quchak's, Nairi?

Isn't he thought to have come from the Van region, which might account for the references to the sea and blue eyes (there are a lot of light-blue-eyed people in that region, and in a land-locked country the lake is as good a substitute for a proper sea as you could find).

[bellthecat]

Bell, you surely have never met an Armenian girl. You would have the same fixation

Or as Morrissey put it (back in the distant days when he could write decent songs unlike his current crap) "some girls are bigger than others"!

[nairi]

Is that another of Quchak's, Nairi?

Yes

Isn't he thought to have come from the Van region, which might account for the references to the sea and blue eyes (there are a lot of light-blue-eyed people in that region, and in a land-locked country the lake is as good a substitute for a proper sea as you could find).

Hairapetan writes that Arshak Chopanian claimed that all these hayrens came from one author, namely Quchak, who must have been a troubadour that had lived in Akn, wandering from city to city in western Armenia and Asia Minor and settling in Van where he died. He was buried in Kharakonis. Chopanian's opinion was based on these lines written in the colophon of a manuscript gospel in 1637: "Bethink of Quchak and his grandfather, master Nahapet, who was called ashgh (troubadour) Quchak...". Later, however, Abeghian "corrected" this view by saying that the hayrens were written by different people (see my previous post).

[nairi]

In The Heritage of Armenian Literature it says that Quchak was born around the beginning of the sixteenth century in the village of Kharakonis, in the province of Van. He died in 1592 and is buried in the Church of St. Thaddeus (Surb Tadeos) in Kharakonis.

[Harut]

Յովհաննէս Երզնկացի Պլուզ
1230-1293

i was just now going through his series of Հայրենի Կարգաւ in Հայ Դասական Գնարերգություն book. guess what i found; exactly same հայրեն that i also read in the book of Նահապետ Քուչակ.

[Armen]

Which one Harut?

[Harut]

... but he sure sounds like a devoted liberal.

Ով օտարին վատ ասէ.
ինքն այլ ղաիրպ լինենայ,
Երթա ի յօտար երկիր,
զղարիպին ղատրըն գիտենայ.
Ղարիպն ի յօտար երկիր՝
թէ ոսկի թաթաւ գա նորա,
Ի իւր սիրելեացն ի զատ
այն ոսկին մոխի՛ր չարժենայ:

this one...

i haven't gone through all of his writings though. there might be more.

[Harut]

well, apperently it was a regular thing to write about breasts when writing love poems in those ages. here is another one from...

Յովհաննէս Թլկուրանցի
(ԺԴ-ԺԵ ԴԴ.)

this one is not a հայրեն but two pages long poem. the whole thing is not that explisit, but close to the end...

Երեսդ է արև, ճակատդ է Զօհրան,
Կըլափդ է խընծոր, ծըծերդ է շամամ,
Զինչ յեկեմ դրախտի՝ ի քո ծոցըդ կան,
Երբ շաքարն ի մօտս՝ ինձ ի Մըսր ի՞նչ բան.
Սիրով մի՛ սպանաներ, ճէլլատ էֆէնտի:

and if you want to learn about the "resorts" of the time, read on...

Պագ մի յերեսէդ աժէ զԵզնկան,
ԶՀապաշ ու զԵմեն, զՏիլ ու զՀունաստան,
Երկու վարսդ է գին, է՜ Չին ու Խութան,
Պուլղար ու զԸստամբօլ ու շահրի Եազտան.
Սիրով մի՛ սպանաներ, ճէլլատ էֆէնտի:

[Stormig]

Shaddaim.

[Arpa]

Նահապետ Քուչակ
ԿԵՆՍԱԳՐՈՒԹՅՈՒՆ
Նահապետ Քուչակ, Նահապետ վարպետ աշըղ Քուչակ, Չիչակ, վանեցի կամ Վանլի Քոչակ [XV դ. վերջ կամ XVI դ. սկիզբ, հավանաբար գ. Խառակոնիս (Վանի նահանգում) — 1592, թաղվել է Խառակոնիսի Ս. Թեոդորոս եկեղեցու գերեզմանատանը], հայ առաջին աշուղ-երգիչներից: Նրա մասին եղած ժող. զրույցները և «Նահապետ վարպետ» կոչումը վկայում են, որ եղել է սիրված երգիչ և աշուղ: Ն. Ք-ի անունով գրավոր և բանավոր ավանդությամբ պահպանվել և առայժմ հայտնի են շուրջ մեկ տասնյակ կրոնական, բարոյախրատական և սիրային բովանդակությամբ աշուղական երգեր՝ հայերենով ու թուրքերենով, որոնցից յոթը՝ հայատառ թուրքերենով: 1880-ական թվականներից թյուրիմացաբար Ն. Ք-ին են վերագրվել նաև միջնադարյան հայրենները:
Այդ վերագրումն սկսվել է բանասեր Ա. Տևկանցի «Հայերգ» գրքից (1882) և հետագայում դարձել է գրական ավանդույթ, որին հետևել են նաև ուրիշ բանասեր-գրականագետներ: Թեև 1920-ական թթ. Մ. Աբեղյանը ապացուցեց այդ վերագրման անհիմն լինելը, բայց հետագայում ևս Ն. Ք. համարվել է միջնադարյան հայրենների հեղինակ, նրա անունով են հրատարակվել և բազմաթիվ լեզուներով թարգմանվել այդ երգերը: Այս իմաստով Ն. Ք. դարձել է պայմանական և հավաքական անուն, որով լայն շրջաններում հայտնի է հայ միշնադարյան քնարերգության այդ մեծ և հարուստ ժառանգությունը:
Երկ. Հայրենի կարգավ (նախաբանը և ծանոթ. Ավ. Ղուկասյանի), Ե., 1957: Песни любви, пер. А. Амбарцумяна, СПБ, 1904; Стихотворения, пер. Ал. Степана, предисл. М. Мкряна, Е., 1941; Сто и один айрен, предисл., составл., подстроч. пер. Л. Мкртчяна, Е., 1976.
Գրկ. Տևկանց Ա., Հայերգ, մեղեդիք, տաղք և եդգք, Թ., 1882: Չոպանյան Ա., Նահապետ Քուչակի դիվանը, Փարիզ, 1902: Նույնի, Հայրեններու բուրաստանը, Փարիզ, 1940: Մնացականյան Ա., Հայրենների և Նահապետ Քուչակի մասին, «ՊԲՀ», 1958, N 2: Եգանյան Օ., Նահապետ Քուչակի հայատառ թուրքերեն տաղերը, «ԲՄ», N 5. 1960: Աբեղյան Մ., Երկ., հ. 2, Ե., 1967: Tchobanian A., La roseraie d'Armenie, t. 2, P., 1923, p. 179-194.
Ս. Հարությունյան
I had known that “kocek” meant “dancer”, not unlike the Arabic male “rakkas” and the female “rakkasa” , which at times is used as a substitute to ”loose woman”.
My miniscule Turkish dictionary defines “kochek” as “boy dancer”.
Look here;
An excerpt
http://en.wikipedia....rg/wiki/Köçek
An excerpt;
The word is derived from the Persian kuchak, "little," "small," or "young."
The culture of the köçek, which flourished from the 17th to the 19th century, had its origin in the customs in Ottoman palaces, and in particular in the harems. Its genres enriched both the music and the dance of the Ottomans.
The support of the Sultans was a key factor in its development, as in the early stages the arts form was confined to palace circles. From there the practice dispersed throughout Anatolia and the Balkans by means of independent troupes.
Köçek
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The köçek phenomenon (plural köçekler in Turkish) is one of the significant features of Ottoman Empire culture. The köçek was typically a very handsome young male rakkas, "dancer," usually cross-dressed in feminine attire, employed as an entertainer and sex worker.
Köçek with tambourine
Entertainers and sex workers, köçeks were in high demand in the Ottoman Empire. They were sought by high and low, up to the Sultan.
Photograph, late 19th c.
The köçeks were usually children of non-Muslim dhimmi peoples living under Ottoman rule. Their ranks were filled from the ethnic groups - mostly Christians - subdued by the Turkish empire (such as the Circassians, Balkan Slavs, Armenians, Jews, Roma, Moldavians and Greeks) since the profession was held to be below the dignity of a Muslim and thus forbidden to Muslim boys.
[edit] Roots
The word is derived from the Persian kuchak, "little," "small," or "young."
The culture of the köçek, which flourished from the 17th to the 19th century, had its origin in the customs in Ottoman palaces, and in particular in the harems. Its genres enriched both the music and the dance of the Ottomans.
The support of the Sultans was a key factor in its development, as in the early stages the arts form was confined to palace circles. From there the practice dispersed throughout Anatolia and the Balkans by means of independent troupes.

[edit] Culture
Köçek troupe at a fair at Sultan Ahmed's 1720 celebration of his sons' circumcision. Miniature from the Surname-i Vehbi, Topkapi Palace, Istanbul.
A köçek would begin training around the age of seven or eight, and would be considered accomplished after about six years of study and practice. A dancer's career would last as long as he was beardless and retained his youthful appearance. Dancers would get married when they were around 25 or 30, and then could become organizers of a new köçek troop. Köçeks were organized into companies known as kol. Twelve such companies were counted in the mid-1600s, each company averaging about 250 dancers.
Their erotic dances, collectively known as köçek oyunu, blended Arab, Greek, Assyrian and Kurdish elements. They were performed to a particular genre of music known as köçekce, which was performed in the form of suites in a given melody. It too was a mix of Sufi, Balkan and classical Anatolian influences, some of which survives in popular Turkish music today. The accompaniment included various percussion instruments, such as the davul-köçek, the davul being a large drum, one side covered with goat skin and the other in sheep skin, producing different tones.
Pair of zils; Khan el Khalili market, Cairo.
A köçek's skill would be judged not only on his dancing abilities but also on his proficiency with percussion instruments, especially a type of castagnette known as the çarpare. In later times these were replaced by metal cymbals called Zils. The dancers were accompanied by an orchestra, featuring four to five each kaba kemence and lauto as principal instruments, used exclusively for köçek suites. There were also two singers. A köçek dance in the Ottoman Seraglio (palace harem) involved one or two dozen köçeks and many musicians. The occasions of their performances were wedding or circumcision celebrations, feasts and festivals, as well as the pleasure of the sultans and the aristocracy.
The youths, often wearing heavy makeup, would curl their hair and wear it in long tresses under a small black or red velvet hat decorated with coins, jewels and gold. Their usual garb consisted of a tiny red embroidered velvet jacket with a gold-embroidered silk shirt, shalvars (baggy trousers), a long skirt and a gilt belt, knotted at the back. They were said to be "sensuous, attractive, effeminate," and their dancing "sexually provocative," impersonating female dancers. Dancers minced and gyrated their hips in slow vertical and horizontal figure-8's, rhythmically snapping their fingers and making suggestive gestures. Often acrobatics, tumbling and mock wrestling were also part of the act. The köçeks were available sexually, often to the highest bidder, in the passive role.
The names and backgrounds of köçeks in Istanbul in the 18th century are well documented. Among the more celebrated köçeks from the end of the 18th century are the Gypsy Benli Ali of Dimetoka (today's Greece); Buyuk (big, older) Afet (born Yorgaki) of Croatian origin, Kucuk (little) Afet (born Kaspar) of Armenian origin, and Pandeli from the Greek Island of Chiros. There were at least fifty köçeks of star stature at the time. The famous ones, like the Gypsy köçek Ismail, would have to be booked weeks or months in advance, at a very high cost.
Western visitors were variously taken with the - for them - unusual sight of pederasty unleashed. One impression is preserved in Don Leon, a poem anonymously written in the voice of Lord Byron:
Saki (1609) by Reza Abbasi (1565 - 1635). Moraqqa’-e Golshan, Isfahan, Iran; Golestan Palace.
Here much I saw – and much I mused to see
The loosened garb of Eastern luxury.
I sought the brothel, where, in maiden guise,
The black-eyed boy his trade unblushing plies;
Where in lewd dance he acts the scenic show –
His supple haunches wriggling to and fro:
With looks voluptuous the thought excites,
Whilst gazing sit the hoary sybarites:
Whilst gentle lute and drowsy tambourine
Add to the languor of the monstrous scene.
Yes, call it monstrous! but not monstrous, where
Close latticed harems hide the timid fair:
With mien gallant where pæderasty smirks,
And whoredom, felon like, in covert lurks.
All this I saw – but saw it not alone –
A friend was with me, and I dared not own
How much the sight had touched some inward sense,
Too much for e’en the closest confidence. (441-8).
In his travels to the Levant, Byron had indeed been present at such a dance as described above. His traveling companion, John Cam Hobhouse, relates in his diary that on Saturday, May 19th, 1810:
This day, went with Byron and a party to the wine houses of Galata. Took pipes, and saw two old and ugly boys, who wrung the sweat off their brows, dance as before, waving their long hair. Also they spread a mat and, putting on a kind of shawl, performed an Alexandrian woman’s dance – much the same, except that they knelt, and, covering each other’s heads, seemed as if kissing. One of Mr Adair’s Janissaries, who talks English and has been in England, was with us. I asked him if these boys would not be hanged in England. “Oh yes, directly. De Turk take and byger dem d’ye see?”
For this beastly sight we paid fifty-five piastres, five to the boys each, and five to all fiddlers and singers and performers &c., nor is this dear, I understand. Turk boys are not allowed to dance. Excerpt from Hobhouse's diary
The youths were held in high esteem. Famous poets, such as Fazyl bin Tahir Enderuni, wrote poems, and classical composers, such as the court musician Hammamizade İsmail Dede Efendi (1778-1846), composed köçekces for celebrated koceks. Many Istanbul meyhanes (night-time taverns serving meze, raki or wine) hired köçeks. Before starting their performance, the köçek danced among the spectators, to make them more excited. In the audience, competition for their attention often caused commotions and altercations. Men would go wild, breaking their glasses, shouting themselves voiceless, or fighting and sometimes killing each other vying for the boys' sexual favors. This resulted in suppression of the practice under sultan Sultan Abd-ul-Mejid I. Köçek dances were officially banned in 1856, and many of the boys left the country to practice their profession in Egypt and elsewhere. With the suppression of harem culture under Sultan `Abdu'l-`Aziz (1861-1876) and Sultan Abdul Hamid II (1876-1908), köçek dance and music lost the support of its royal patrons, and gradually disappeared.
The other type of rakkas, or male dancer (from raks, "dance") was the tavşan oğlan, "rabbit boy," a young dancer dressed in provocative male clothing: tight pants and a jaunty hat. The non-Muslim tavşan oğlan are thought to have come mainly from the Greek islands in the Aegean and the Sea of Marmara. They performed mainly during Ramadan, working as sakis "wine boys" in the meyhanes otherwise, when not dancing at special occasions.
Köçeks were much more sought after than the çengi, their feminine counterparts. Some youths were known to have been killed by the çengi, who were extremely jealous of men's attention towards the boys.

[edit] Modern offshoots
Male belly dancer in Istanbul Turkey.
At present, the same-sex love and sexuality aspect of köçek culture is considered to have been "a privilege of the powerful economic classes or the world of the arts." Though no new compositions or performances have taken place in the last hundred years, male dancers dressed as women still perform in some areas of Turkey, though their art is no longer primarily of a sensual nature and is seen primarily as folkloric.
The style however continues to inspire modern musicians. Ulvi Cemal Erkin (1906-1972) is a Turkish classical composer whose most popular masterpiece is Köçekçe a dance rhapsody composed in 1943, and perhaps the best known single piece of Turkish music abroad. It was first introduced to the public in 1943 with Ernst Praetorius conducting the Presidential Symphony Orchestra.
Another modern interpretation is the movie Kocek (Küçük cadi 1975) by director Nejat Saydam. It is probably the first Turkish movie to deal with the topic of homosexuality and change of gender role. At the same time, young male dancers dressed in sparkling costumes are again finding favor, despite the objections of conservative commentators. Known as rakkas, they have become a common feature of dance halls and night clubs, performing seductive belly dances, and are reputed to be "as sexual and popular as any of the best Turkish female belly dancers."

[neko]

The köçek phenomenon (plural köçekler in Turkish) is one of the significant features of Ottoman Empire culture. The köçek was typically a very handsome young male rakkas, "dancer," usually cross-dressed in feminine attire, employed as an entertainer and sex worker.

Is there a cultural connection with this?
Kandahar, a city of Pashtuns noted for their gaiety, so to speak...

[hagopn]

This posting is of fascination to me for a variety of reasons, but not due to the poetry itself.  Quchak is certainly not one I respect nor enjoy, honestly, except for some rare moments of true spirituality that reflect an older mythological layer manifesting itself.  His imagery of water as the metaphor for the spiritual is of more value if even in a single verse, than all his boorish ottomanized quasi-pornographic rubbish.  

 

His (or, as Abeghian would say, "the trend", an anthropomorphic "trend") overall a sure sign of a pederastic/pedophiliac cultural milieu that objectifies women, a culture of rape and disrespect, of dehumanization and toxification of relations.  It is the equivalent to Hafez' (who also was an avid pederast) "put a rose on her breast upon defilement" (i.e., give the gift of a rose after you finish with the rape) principle, typically muslim "shariat" in character, a culture of total and utter hypocrisy encapsulated in poetry.

 

It's not surprising that people are now taught that "it was always this way, and only those bad old Christianos forbade us and kept us from our libido and our fulfillment, that is until Saint Sigmund came into the picture with that wonderful Anal based theory."  Lots and lots of free prostitutes become magically available.  I was in Vegas a few days ago, and, let me tell you, it is a dream for the pederast to be there. (i.e. prostitution advertisement on large trucks, or cards with sexual organs and a phone number for some "services" passed around to passers by - to preteen children included - by mostly Mexican runners for hire, huge billboards of semi nude figures every where, etc.). 

 

Arpa, in case you missed it, this is exactly in line with the posting I did in 1994 about the pedophilia/pederasty practices in all conqueror cultures, all empires, with the singular exception of (at least officially, which is in doubt due to the Hellfire Club phenomenon as an indicator of what the "elite exemption" of the era consisted of, something which discouraged Calvin from trekking to England proper prior to that time frame) of the vast European colonial ones as well as the Byzantine empire.  Christianity seems to have muffled the pedophiliac traditions. 

 

Your words above of "frustration that we have sterile, non-sexual poetry as the norm" tells me that you have accepted the Freudian "theory" of man's psyche.  Freud, as a good author, Rushash Rshduny has written, is merely a Christian in Penitence who, however, avoids the moral implications and benefit of such penitence by instead committing to and then repenting on the guilt to one's ego alone.  This is some serious fallacy in character that just has managed to make the world really insane. 

 

Sayat Nova, Harutyuan Saatyan, was a healthy eroticist in his own right, but one who didn't succumb to the low quasi-pornographic, ottomanized (in terms of poor imagery) and pederastic rants of the quchak "phenomenon."  At the least the Persian traditions that his sourced from (although his musical content is most Armenian and hymnal in character, especially his arrhythmic improvisations) used imagery very skillfully, but I can imagine the climate under which the Quchaks came to be.  Յը՜խ։

Edited by hagopn, 01 February 2014 - 06:24 PM.

[hagopn]

I also refuse to accept the notion that Sayat Nova was a continuation or result of, or even associated with, this trend.  Paruyr Sevak insists that there is a link and continuation, and I say merely exposure and sourcing of ideas.  Sevak's earlier writings on the topic didn't offer evidence, only assumptions, and for this reason he retired the idea entirely and did not mention it in his main Sayat Nova thesis.  As far as I can tell, it is simply widespread myth.

Edited by hagopn, 01 February 2014 - 06:34 PM.