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Jews and Antisemitism

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#21 F.A.F.J

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:38 PM

In this article of mine, I wish to explain to you some truths about the Armenian Question with the intention of at least partially removing the scales from your eyes:

I want to speak of two large minority [populations] that competed with one another within the Ottoman Empire for centuries, that is to say, the Jews and the Armenians. The disputes between these two minorities derived not from the land dispute [that, originating with] the Young Turks [and continuing] down to the establishment of the Union and Progress Party, but with the struggles between these two groups for commercial advantage. The Armenians were always much more capable artisans than the Jews and [so the latter] did not engage in commerce apart from through fraud and dubious dealing or by creating all manner of division and dissent against their competitors, because the society was not familiar with their culture. That’s how it was with the Jews, it was part of their ideology; that’s what it meant to be Jewish.
In the 1870s two branches of Judaism, the Sabbateans and the Jews,[14]began to organize among themselves and gain in strength. Through the assistance of the French, Italians and other foreign powers they began to understand the dimensions of their own united power in the economic field. They began to [work toward] destroy[ing] the [Ottoman] Empire and planting the seeds of an entirely new state that they themselves would establish. But naturally, as part of this plan they could not be on friendly terms with the Armenians, who were their biggest competitors. For this reason you cannot find Armenians among the Young Turks or the [Committee of] Union and Progress. They embarked upon preparations for the whittling down and elimination of the Armenians. What they intended to do was to eliminate the Armenians, who for centuries had established a powerful minority community within the various cities and centers of Anatolia, and to establish a state in which the control and administration would be in their own hands. This was what Sabbatai Sevi had intended in the 17th century. The Armenians would be eliminated and they themselves, that is, the Sabbateans, the majority of whom were wealthy and powerful, would come from the Balkans to Anatolia and settle there. In this way the Jews would also be rid of the their strongest competitors.

from:

http://www.armenianw...enian-genocide/

Edited by F.A.F.J, 16 December 2012 - 04:39 PM.


#22 F.A.F.J

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:13 PM

" They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I'll tell you what they don't want: They don't want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don't want well informed, well educated people capable of critical thinking. They're not interested in that. That doesn't help them. Thats against their interests.

Thats right. They don't want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they're getting f***ed by a system that threw them overboard 30 f***ing years ago. They don't want that!You know what they want?

They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork."

By George Carlin

Edited by F.A.F.J, 17 December 2012 - 12:16 PM.


#23 F.A.F.J

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Posted 18 December 2012 - 03:05 PM

"We Jews, we the destroyers, will remain the destroyers forever. NOTHING that you will do will meet our needs and demands. We will forever destroy, because we need a world of our own, a God-world, which it is not in your nature to build." Maurice Samuel

Edited by F.A.F.J, 18 December 2012 - 03:05 PM.


#24 hagopn

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 08:26 PM

Hmmm.  Can't delete and redo?


Edited by hagopn, 31 January 2014 - 08:28 PM.


#25 hagopn

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 08:50 PM

here we go again.

I just can not understand this obsession with the jews among my people, insted of searching for excusess somehow we overlook our short commings in our history.

when do we stop seeing our selfs as underdogs?
talk about the future, look forword and make sure Genocide never happens again.

I'm sick and tired of hearing the word genocide

 

Fascinating question, Ed.

 

Obsession on one side (the side that wants answers about Jews, customarily called "the anti-semite" by that other, "political correct" side who is the "healthy in mind but likes prozac" sort - i.e. the "leftist fascists and totalitarians who think they are democratic liberal minded" sort) begins when these facts are ignored by the "establishment," and people start asking this question.  Interestingly enough, the more they get resistance from the 'establishment" (such as the standard non-responses above), the more suspicious they become.  Hence the "obsessive" and "repetitive" behavior ensues. 

 

It is rather healthy, actually.  Sheep don't ask questions.  They say "ba-a-a-a-a".  But human beings, men in particular (it is true), ask lots and lots of questions.  Jewish organizations actually keep tabs on stuff like this, but “they are not obsessed. Oh no”.  For example, these organizations do have statistic on the gender distribution of “certified anti-semites,” and the males win it out, hands down.  I still carry the ADL membership, left over from my younger college days when I joined every human rights organization one can think of with the hopes of gaining allies for Genocide recognition.  Imagine the degree of disappointment.

 

To ask questions when noticing anomalies and contradictions, when noticing dissonance between presented "established facts" versus noticeable reality, that's called Critical Thinking.  How easily we forget this when dealing with Jews, and I find this even more obsessively fascinating!

 

So, the best thing is to let it out in the open and let the matter be discussed.  Usually discussion of anything with regards to Jews is discouraged.  At Hyeclub dot com, for example, the word Jew is even edited out by an automatic filter routine!

 

I was called, quite automatically, an "anti-semite" by some Thoth on this forum for saying that "Jews have a bias in historiography that favors them."   How "outlandish" a claim that is, to say that Jews have biases.  It cannot be!  - [ :)]

 

But, before I said this, I merely said "and then there are the Jews," after naming every other sort that is involved in some form or another historical revisionism against Armenians, which are not really that many, once you calibrate things properly.   It is really one or two columns against Armenians.  Others simply don’t matter.  No one got upset or went about name calling until I said “and then there are the Jews.”  That in itself is an interesting topic!

 

It is ironically not the genocide that is of the hottest contention.  It is ancient Armenian history!  To understand this, you have to think like a zionist, the one people on the planet who invaded and occupied land based on, well, ancient mythology!  Who like that wants competition, eh? 

 

What I was going to say, before the "politically correct" parasitic noise began was that Jews, as any other people who depend on their mythology in order to validate their identity and especially political (and territorial, subsequently) claims, will dislike any possible historiographical paradigm that might upset that balance and throw their "our mythology is real history" notion out the window and downgrade it to what it should be; i.e. myths and legends based on half-truths and half-facts.  That condition of having a mythology of hyperbole, symbolism and metaphor is quite normal, but few will achieve to sell those as factual and historical chronicles.  Therefore, I am fascinated, and somewhat obsessed, with this skill set of achieving "magical thinking" among even objective masses and selling myth as history.

 

Armenians are historical (and moral/future again) holders of the Land of Ararat where, as Arpa says aptly, that “drunk landed his large ship” perhaps because his GPS didn’t take him to Sinai like he should have.  You have to understand, the GPS system, that pigeon (ok, “white dove”) he launched, he liked Armenia probably.  (Am I now re-editing the story?  Hey, is that not also my prerogative?)  Armenians, then, have the audacity to think that the Tapan landed on Mount Ararat, Massis, and then they go off into owning the Bible and so on.   Jews probably get really upset and don’t say anything outright.  They just say "you don't have a history."  But, really, wouldn’t you be?   “Hey Schmulik, what the &*%^$%* are these Minnai doing with our boat?  Oy vey! I swear mother told me it landed on Sinai!” 

 

You have to admit, it is fascinating.

 

Now, here's how my obsession began:

 

I am sure that you do know Berich Hrozny, a Jew "by birth" (as it is often said, but why? Was he an elephant “by death”?).  I read an article by an archeology student, I think graduate student, at the University of Prague named Nshan Martirossyan who at the time was studying under Hrozny.  Martirossyan was expressing puzzlement as to why Hrozny was so "adamantly against accepting the possibility that Hayassa can in fact be the same Hay ethnonym."   After reading this, I, too, was in "puzzlement" (Yul Brynner, _The King and I_, my favorite.)

 

Needless to say, my puzzlement soon grew to become keen interest.  And then interest became a full time obsession.  The problem with this obsession is that the more you dig, the more dirt seems to surface, thus perpetuating itself as an obsession.  It is rather a sad commentary on things if every bad suspicion turns out to be right, and yet you find that there’s even more to the story. 

 

So far we have found, as much as we are reluctant to find:  

  1. Tala’at Mausoleum that has a six pointed star, which confirms Rafael de Nogales’ comments on Tala’at about the latter having been a “rogue Jew.”
  2. Emanuel Carasso/Karasu’s involvement in the attempt to bribe Hamid to acquire Palestine and then the return of Karasu during Hamid’s abdication. 
  3. Then we have this weird “coincidence” of the “sabbataean” identity of Mustafa Kemal.

The list is quite large, and it is growing (with current Armenian Republic political figures included).  Even the Israeli author, Auron, about whom I am sure you’ve discussed, has mentioned that the Sephards were right there alongside the muslim Turks, especially in Smyrna, killing and looting.

 

is that a good answer?


Edited by hagopn, 31 January 2014 - 08:56 PM.


#26 hagopn

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:03 AM

Great post Ed. :thumbup: Let me nominate you the King of Armenia. :king:
I still wish that our ads and mods make this thread to disapper.

 

Haha, I knew it!

 

It would be preferable to keep this and get rid of some of the "why do we date turks, jurds, burds" trash



#27 hagopn

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 01:28 PM

Item #4.  Armin Vambery, http://en.wikipedia.... in partnership, essentially, with a Tatar figurehead, clearly the figurehead, Ismail Bey Gasprinski.  Vambery was the ideologue who concocted a "glorious Turkic empire" vision that still is the basis for Turkism. 

 

Even so-called leftists and progressives in Turkey are adherents of this false paradigm.  A while back I had a long debate with a Turkish musicologist with regards to origins of musical instruments, and he was evoking "Gok Turk origins", clearly a fictitious concoction, of various instrument types due to the "shape of the (particularly stringed) instrument's acoustic body."  He said, "don't worry.  I am not a nationalist.  You can speak freely with me."  Then, as I started speaking freely, such as the likehood that Dravidian sources are better explanations for the non-Hittite origin instruments, and that there is much evidence to suggest this, he was in fumes!   He adamantly denied the possibility of such a thing, despite existing genetic, linguistic evidence, and direct instrument examples that exist.   To his credit, he didn't take the route of a typical facsist, who would have easily resorted to the ridiculous - and yet surprisingly mainstream - ruckus about "turkic origins of Sumerians."  Regardless, the fact is that even leftists are saturated with Vamberian propaganda.

 

http://www.zemarchus...emid=16&lang=en

 

Apparently the Russophobia (with regards to Imperial Russia) of the British Empire also fueled this movement.  Also not a surprise due to an immense amount of background information that exists about this topic, but is, also not surprisingly, ignored by "the establishment".


Edited by hagopn, 01 February 2014 - 01:28 PM.


#28 hagopn

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Posted 01 February 2014 - 03:11 PM

Actually, I suggest that the title of this thread be changed.  it is rather telling that this "Jews and Anti-Semitism" is the selected title.  I would say that the person who started this thread is clearly baiting, making the customary attempt at agitating, a standard agent provocateur.  That seems to be a frequent phenomenon on Armenian forums, where sometimes even a Turk or Azeri poses as an Armenian and starts blurting out Jewish hatred nonsense.

 

I will tell you further as to why the title of this thread needs to change.  Save for some petty and easily discredited fabrications by Azerbaijan of late (such as the Guba fiasco), for example, there is no record of actual discrimination or actions against Jews by any Armenian kingdom or state.  "Armenian anti-semitism" is simply a non-topic.  It does not exist.  Even the eventual participation in the Wehrmacht by Drazdamat Kanayan http://en.wikipedia....astamat_Kanayan was entirely for the purpose of avoiding massacre of Armenians under the strangely broad ethnic cleansing program of Germany at the time, which also was targeting Czechs, Slovaks, and others deemed enemies of Uber Deustchland at the time.

 

What does exist is an Armenian reaction to general Jewish Anti-Armenianism.  Indeed, Armenians react to the actions of the state of Israel, AIPAC in the USA, the ADL, the various intellectuals and ideologues (such as the very founder of pan-Turkism, really, Vambery mentioned above), Turkish Republic figures, Young Turk party heads of Jewish ancestry, even the lion's share of holocaust authors, and the list goes on.   These actions are nothing less than the endorsement of a fascist and anti-Armenian Turkish regime.  In fact, not one, but two such regimes exist.   The phenomenon of Georgian anti-Armenianism is also a curious one, in a not much less extreme form, which is perhaps not entirely due to Jewish involvement.  Nevertheless, Israel's endorsement of Georgian interests also bleeds into the Javakhk issue, and Armenians notice this.  Israel's endorsement and alliance with Azerbaijan also automatically impacts the Artsakh (unfortunately better known in its Russianized form of "Nagorno-Kharabkh") issue.

 

Also, even though all anecdotal, and some real, instances of interaction with the general Jewish populations throughout the globe reveal general sympathy toward the Armenian cause, particularly genocide recognition, still the leading institutions of Jewry are against Armenian interests, often indirectly, but sometimes directly.

 

However, to be fair, there is also the common issue of other ethnicities and nation-states, such as the OIC members - with the notable exception of Iran - who are also providing the no vote in Artsakh's recognition.  Every state in Europe is also voting no on that issue, as well as every state in Latin America and North America.  Part of this can be attributed to joint Jewish and Turkish lobbying efforts, as is the case in the USA, France, England, and elsewhere, but much of it is due to economic relations with Turkey, which in turn is a loop back to Israeli involvement in keeping Turkey a "NATO member" and ally, a welfare state, huge recipient of aid and arms support, a huge recipient of political, intelligence and strategic support from entities that, aside from the obvious Israel, clearly are heavily influenced in their regional foreign policy by Jewish as well as the resultant strength of Turkish lobbyism.

 

It is a truism that much of the US financial support to Turkey takes a ricochet right back to PR efforts at Madison Avenue and lobbying efforts at Pennsylvanian Avenue.  Turkish economic successes have direct relations to Jewish efforts in geopolitics in the region, both domestically and via foreign relations efforts by the Jewish influenced foreign offices of the various economic powers mentioned.  

 

But the most important source of Armenian resentment and reaction is absolutely the utter hypocrisy of it all in relation to Genocide versus Holocaust recognition.  This is such an obvious and glaring case of hypocrisy, that to speak any more of it in detail would be truly redundant and insulting to the average Armenian's intelligence. 


Edited by hagopn, 01 February 2014 - 03:13 PM.






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