179 replies to this topic

[Siamanto]

Kakachik
I was thinking more in term of strength philosophically that is. Strong and confident people, nations can react generously meaning they have enough reservoirs of self-identity to accept their distant cousins as one of them. That is strong and that builds culture, economy since generous thinking has a ripple effect. The more we resist the deeper we sink.
Jewish comparison is valid since they accept each other to some degree even without any religious affiliation. Lot of Russian Jews who immigrated Israel and US were essentially atheists but still they got integrated into Israeli state.

Armat,
I agreed with the fact that rejecting the Hamshen will bring them closer to the Jurks and they MAY become Armenian if we accept them; but, I don't agree that "not identifying them as Armenians" is a sign of:
- lack of confidence
- weakness
- lack of generosity
- etc. etc.
I just like to call a cat a cat! Being Armenian is not merely a "nationality" like being American or - to a lesser degree- French! Being Armenian has also ethnic, Cultural and religious connotations.
(Personally, I'm not religious, but I consider myself an "ethnic Christian," because I grew up among Christians!)

The comparison between Jews/Israel and Armenians - not Citizens of the Republic of Armenia - does not hold!

PS. I would gladly welcome Italians, French, Slavs, Chinese, Native Americans etc. among Armenians! Personal choice!

[kakachik77]

Armat, your way of thinking is suitable for coutries such as France and United States or any other Western coutry, none of which are surrounded by hostile muslim nations ready any minute to crush Armenians. Based on our history some of which I desribed above we cannot quite be "generous" when it comes to our identity otherwise we'll just melt into the big muslim cultural and religious pot. And how we'll we ever "trust" Hamshen to defend Armenians and go fight against their muslim brothers (Azeris, Turks) let's say if there was a war, now which side would they take their religious side or their supposed ethnic side. I mean they already once chose to hide behind the Turkish veil and only chose to come out of their hiding (now) when being Armenian is not such a bad idea. How can you be sure that they'll be with us this time around. I guess the Hamshen identity is quite malleable bending to the side most favorable at that moment. As you already mentioned I believe, Armenians are nothing but stubborn.

Now I don't of course reject that Hamshen have ethnic Armenian origins, so do a lot of so called "true" Turks. The issue here is one of national identity, again I will repeat, I don't think we can afford as Armenians to be generous in this regard.

[Siamanto]

BTW, Siamanto, I am surprised your head doesn't send you rolling sideways or backwards sometimes as often as bolting forward into a crash.

Please, don't blame yourself if you can't grasp and comprehend it and remain surprised!
Intelligence has never been a Jurkish national trait.
It's not your fault!

[Stormig]

Please, don't blame yourself if you can't grasp and comprehend it and remain surprised!
Intelligence has never been a Jurkish national trait.
It's not your fault!

Can't grasp??? Don't make me laugh! Size that ego down, prick! Nobody in this forum is as interested in discussing themselves or others as you are, so know where you stand!

[Stormig]

Stormig I'm not limited on the question at hand, and I'm not just running around checking your multipal personalities,.....should I say more or you want to cut the crap?

Cut what crap? Has Nakharar admitted he's my alter ego yet?

[Med]

At least I'm not dumbed-down.

You must be giving a self-definition of yourself.

Can't grasp??? Don't make me laugh! Size that ego down, prick! Nobody in this forum is as interested in discussing themselves or others as you are, so know where you stand!

Go wipe your snot off your ratty snout.

Your Brain

Is that all you have got? Resorting to insults and cheapshots, because you're not capable enough to even articulate one sentence. There is a saying in your language: "Kızım sana söyledim gelinim sen anla". It seems to fit you.

[Stormig]

Your Brain

Is that all you have got?

You're a newcomer, so know your bounds as to what I say to whom and who says what to me. I don't crash into a forum you post in and start pontificating, do I? Moreover, this response you've quoted is long overdue if you consider what the Rat deserves for his stinky interjections, not the least of which was that my saying we have different talents and such because of the differences in our brains contradicted my saying that all human beings - male, female, of whichever race, etc. - are born equal, when lovely Rat spurts all sorts of crap whenever he is around any thread I've started, including the Meet the U.S. thread where his posts had to be edited out for childish gibberish. So kindly stay put and put away that keyboard, novice.

Edited by Stormig, 19 January 2005 - 01:38 PM.

[Med]

You are the one with interjections. You can keep your advice to yourself smilie face.

[Stormig]

You are the one with interjections. You can keep your advice to yourself smilie face.

Ain't that royal? Not only a novice, but a "No you are" as well.

[Med]

Why the incredulity? You are not the owner of this forum ain't ya?

[Med]

I think religion has more to do with it. The Hamshen Armenians joined the Turkish fold a long time ago. Some of them still might speak Armenian, but they are more or less assimilated and rather hostile if you make any reference to Armenians. My father told me an interesting story about his time when he did his military service in Ordu not far from where the Hamshen Armenians live. There was an Armenian doing his military duty there as well and their squadron came upon a group of villagers who invited them for lunch. When his friend heared the villagers say some words in Armenian, he was amazed and spoke to them in Armenian. The villagers were dumbstruck and asked him which village he came from. When he told him that he was Armenian they said that they are speaking their own language! I don't if they were aware, but maybe thirty years or so there were still some Armenian Shangri-la's lost in some valleys and insurmonutable mountains. Then they are Kurdicized Armenians who still retained their religion. They mostly lived in the Mush area but most of them left for Istanbul and Europe. The best known were the Armenian Varto clan who lived in Varto. They spoke Kurdish and tenaciously clinged to their religion as a reminder of their Armenian heritage. They survived the genocide because they were a respected and most importantly armed clan who would not have themselves pushed around. After the Varto earthquake in 1966 and increasing pressures from other Kurdish clans they moved to Europe. Most of them settled down in Marseilles and Brussels. A few live in Switzerland. They must number around 2000, if I'm not mistaken. I think religion is the main factor for Armenian self-preservation in this regard. Those who stayed in the Armenian Apostolic Church preserved the Armenian ethos and spririt. You can't say the same thing for the Muslim Armenians since they weren't touched, but only a insignificant number of Christian Armenians survived.

[Anileve]

I am confused...are we discussing the article and Armenians revealing their identities or we are attacking Stormy and her "alter ego"? Please let me know, I don't want to be left out of the loop. With all due respect kind Arpa, I do believe that this phenomenon has been common knowledge in the Armenian community across the globe. At least it was thoroughly discussed in the myriads of genocide publications. They were forced...they had no choice...they had to save their families....Now they are making a film about it, and the wheel keeps spinning. How about some positive stories about the life of Armenians in Turkey who really like their place of residence. I've actually met some on several occasions, but they are reluctant to reveal this information to other patriotic Armenians who glare at them with disgust and disapproval.

[Nakharar]

I'm supposed to be Stormig's alter ego?

Interesting topic by the way. Turkish or Kurdish "Armenians", it really doesn't matter nowadays. Even if they exist, there's not much out there for them.

[Arpa]

Armat,
.........
(Personally, I'm not religious, but I consider myself an "ethnic Christian," because I grew up among Christians!)
..........

No wonder we are growing smaller just as we speak.
When is the last time we added even ONE person to our ranks?
We have constantly lost and are still losing several hundreds, thousands every minute of the day. Be it through passive or active assimilation, alienation and rejection.
Is there a way to make being an Armenian so attractive that people will knock our gates down and enter begging to be accepted?

So you say you are Christian.
Do you read that Christian users' manual aka the New Testament?
Are you familiar with the below parable known as the Parable of the Prodigal Son, Anarak Ordou Arak@?
Maybe we should compile a profie of an Armenian and issue identity cards based on the features.
Let's begin;
An Armenian is if;
1.
2.
3.
4.
.......

Is not if;
1.
2.
3.
4.
..........
So they may be the Prodigal Son.
Can you find in yourself that Christian charity and forgiveness?

Scroll down to Ghukas Glukh 15.
http://www.armenianc...bible/Luke.html

10Ասում եմ ձեզ, Աստծու հրեշտակների առաջ այսպէս ուրախութիւն կը լինի մէկ մեղաւորի համար, որն ապաշխարում է»։ 11Եւ ասաց. «Մի մարդ երկու որդի ունէր. 12նրանցից կրտսերը հօրն ասաց. «Հա՛յր, տո՛ւր քո ունեցուածքից ինձ ընկնող բաժինը»։ Եւ նա ունեցուածքը բաժանեց նրանց։ 13Քիչ օրեր յետոյ, կրտսեր որդին, փողի վերածելով ամէն ինչ, գնաց հեռու աշխարհ եւ այնտեղ վատնեց իր ունեցուածքը, որովհետեւ անառակ կեանքով էր ապրում։ 14Եւ երբ ամէն ինչ սպառեց, այդ երկրում սաստիկ սով եղաւ, եւ նա սկսեց չքաւոր դառնալ։ 15Գնաց դիմեց այդ երկրի քաղաքացիներից մէկին, եւ սա ուղարկեց նրան իր ագարակը՝ խոզեր արածեցնելու։ 16Եւ նա ցանկանում էր իր որովայնը լցնել եղջերենու պտղով, որ խոզերն էին ուտում, բայց ոչ ոք այդ նրան չէր տալիս։ 17Ապա խելքի եկաւ եւ ասաց. «Քանի՜ վարձու աշխատաւորներ կան իմ հօր տանը, որ առատ հաց ունեն, եւ ես այստեղ սովամահ կորչում եմ։ 18Վեր կենամ գնամ իմ հօր մօտ եւ նրան ասեմ. հա՛յր, մեղանչեցի երկնքի դէմ ու քո առաջ 19եւ այլեւս արժանի չեմ քո որդին կոչուելու, ինձ վերցրո՛ւ

http://www.hti.umich...V2&byte=4704170

[Nakharar]

Excellent post Arpa! Rather concentrating on imaginary Armenians in Turkey why don't we concentrate on real, tangible Armenians in the Diaspora who consider being an Armenian as a burden. Some people are really changing the subject, because they do not want to look the unpleasant truth in the face.

[Arpa]

I think religion has more to do with it. The Hamshen Armenians joined the Turkish fold a long time ago. Some of them still might speak Armenian, but they are more or less assimilated and rather hostile if you make any reference to Armenians. My father told me an interesting story about his time when he did his military Varto

Can we make them recite; "Ne mutlu Ermeni im deyene"?
Can we convince them that being Armenian is more fortunate than...? How?
We would be very hard pressed.

[DominO]

Where is Kurdish remorse?

Recognising the genocide, as tool againt Turkey, is as, or even more disgusting as denying it. The genocide is not a war tool.

[Nakharar]

Everyone is doing that Domino. Do you think all these countries are recognizing the genocide because they feel so sorry for the Armenians. They could care less about Armenians. It's a bargaining chip against Turkey.

[Arpa]

Where is Kurdish remorse?

Recognising the genocide, as tool againt Turkey, is as, or even more disgusting as denying it. The genocide is not a war tool.

Well said Fado!
Is that a Kurdish Name?
In fact, as we speak the Armenians and the Kurds in a virtual "territorial" war.
Search and find some of the maps of Kurdistan that the Kurds have designed and compare that to some of the maps we wish to design. Note that many of their's include even Yerevan.
They have been aired here at various occasions.
Are they willing to share?

Here is one.
Can we claim at least Ani and Ararat?
http://www.kurdish-p...pkurdistan.html

Edited by Arpa, 19 January 2005 - 09:38 AM.

[DominO]

Everyone is doing that Domino. Do you think all these countries are recognizing the genocide because they feel so sorry for the Armenians. They could care less about Armenians. It's a bargaining chip against Turkey.

You're ignorant to say the least.

I followed all the process that ended up by the recognition of the Armenian genocide by the Canadian House of Commons... and it was a true recognition... the deputees of the liberal party have voted against their own ministers that voted no. This happen very rarely in Canada because of the party line. The Yes was not a political move, the no was. There are many such countries that passed a resolution or a law in all honnesty.

I have followed and participated in a Kurdish forum, everything was going well when discussing about Turkey and the genocide, but when the issue of lands, and Kurdish participation in the genocide was brought, they became like the most fanatic Turks I have accountered.

Take a look at the Kurdistan map, it even includes part of present day Armenia.