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#41 Johannes

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 03:34 PM

For example, they say dingir and tangri (Turkish god) are same,

#42 Johannes

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 03:40 PM

Sumerian dictionary
http://www.ping.de/s...fo/sumerian.htm
Does it remind us to any relation to any language?

Edited by Johannes, 24 January 2014 - 03:43 PM.


#43 hagopn

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 03:44 PM

Haha, Turks give me a headache, seriously.  The first source I had on this topic of the Sumero-Armenian link was Raphael Ishkhanian, someone the Monkeys Staring At The Banana considered "too conroversial a figure to allow to exist peacefully," someone the Soviet authorities had apparrently put under house arrest for his "radical natioinalist views."  Apparently saying that ARmenians were always ARmenians is a "radical concept," but Monkeys will be Monkeys.  THen I was given a book by Martiros Gavoukjian entitled Armenia, Subartu, and Sumer.  Fascinating set of ideas which were dimissed by the Monkeys as "nationalist mysticism."  Apparently seeing "saedhsyuo" to be the ancestor of "aj" is not mystical.

 

If you know any real sources of actual and honest comparisons online, please let me know.


Edited by hagopn, 24 January 2014 - 03:45 PM.


#44 Arpa

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 03:48 PM

Ajarian@ nuynkan heravor Hubschmannin vra himnelov ir skspnagan pul@ voroshadz e Gabign u Banani tez.   Yes arten hamozvadz em vor hagarag ir medz ashkhatankin hateb unetsats harkankis, terutyunner@ kidagan oren annereli en.


Yes Ajarian is a student of HMB (Hubschmann, Meillet and Benvenista) who were not Armenian. Remember that Urartu was discovered by non-Armenians as well.
I have said this before. Now we have the luxury of the access to much more sources, including the Internet. Ajarian lived and worked in the old stone age as opposed to the new stone age of Silicon**. Can he be corrected? Yes! Even I, as stupid as I am see and have seen many passages that need to be revised. Although, I am sure he could read the Arabic script, he totally ignores the Arabic origin of certain words, instead he cites the osmanli qamous. I am not sure if he bases his assumptions of Pahalavi origins, if he actually can read old Pahlavi or is it based on Arabo-Farsi script?
He often refers to the Assyrian, specially when it comes to our words ending in այ/ay as in քահանայ, աբեղայ etc. Seems like those and other words were qahanaY and abeghaY in the Assyrian.
**

sil·i·ca (sĭl′ĭ-kə) -A white or colorless crystalline compound, SiO2, occurring abundantly as quartz, sand, flint, agate, and many other minerals and used to manufacture a wide variety of materials, especially glass and concrete. -New Latin, from Latin silex, silic-, hard stone, flint.

Shall we rename Silicon Valley- Old Stone Age Valley, Karahunj, Stonehenge?
Also remember that some say Kilikia/Cilicia/Silicia means stony./calcareous/calculous.

#45 Johannes

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 03:51 PM

I don't have .
Many words are still in use in Arabic (some of them I think borrowed from Aramaic), in Arabic dialects, in Armenian, but most words are strange.
I think hurrian languages and Sumerian are far-near relatives. What you say?

#46 hagopn

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 04:38 PM

I don't know much about the Hurrian language directly, only the few scant words mentioned by Armenologists.  Gavoukjian didn't think that Armenian and Hurrian were related and even took S. Kramer's and I. Gelb's tentative views that somehow the Hurrian language is a relative of Finno-Magyar-Ugric, which is unprovable and probably not correct.  I have no way of veryfing regardless.

 

I found a much more comprehensive and accurate Sumerian dictionary here http://psd.museum.up...epsd-frame.html

 

The one you posted above seems like a melange of early Babylonian and late Lagash period Sumerian, which was already supposedly saturated with Amoritic vocabulary.  Bit for home?  Sounds like it is not original Sumerian. The only Armenian link candiate at the page you posted is Abomination = ANZILLU.  I have always been a skeptic of the "U" suffix they tack on to everything from all cuneiform writings.  Anzillu sounds close to Anitzyal. 


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#47 hagopn

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 04:50 PM

Yes Ajarian is a student of HMB (Hubschmann, Meillet and Benvenista) who were not Armenian. Remember that Urartu was discovered by non-Armenians as well.
I have said this before. Now we have the luxury of the access to much more sources, including the Internet. Ajarian lived and worked in the old stone age as opposed to the new stone age of Silicon**. Can he be corrected? Yes! Even I, as stupid as I am see and have seen many passages that need to be revised. Although, I am sure he could read the Arabic script, he totally ignores the Arabic origin of certain words, instead he cites the osmanli qamous. I am not sure if he bases his assumptions of Pahalavi origins, if he actually can read old Pahlavi or is it based on Arabo-Farsi script?
He often refers to the Assyrian, specially when it comes to our words ending in այ/ay as in քահանայ, աբեղայ etc. Seems like those and other words were qahanaY and abeghaY in the Assyrian.
**
Shall we rename Silicon Valley- Old Stone Age Valley, Karahunj, Stonehenge?
Also remember that some say Kilikia/Cilicia/Silicia means stony./calcareous/calculous.

 

Arpa, he was certainly not aware of Avestani and its distinction from Pahlavi and Old Persian.  He was also completely unaware of the absence of numerous Avestani terms in Old Persian, which is surprisingly something that would have bothered a more scrutinzing scholar.  Hovik Nersesian, howevever, was an expert in the old Avestani, the Zand Avesta dialect, Pahlavi, Old Persian.  His conclusion was that the Avesta, first of all, had Armenian origins, and the avalanche begins from there.  "From Pahlavi" is totally and absolutely inaccurate, but is somehow the dominant theme in the Monkey School of Ajarian whose course was set by Hubschmann, more so than Meillet.  Meillet at least was more open to suggestions that Armenian was indeed a more influential language in the other direction than generally believed.  The reality changes drastically once you read Nersesian's treatment of the Parthian/Sassanian pantheon.  You quickly realize that the Parthians borrowed much more from Armenians originally than realized.



#48 hagopn

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 04:53 PM

Hovaness, as far as Sumerian, that's a tough call.  Most words attributed to Sumerian were done so using the post Babylonian, SUmerian revival period, which was already a late period where Sumerian was corrupted, or, perhaps, the Akkadian phonetic reading is completely wrong and that we know little or nothing of the Sumerian language in actuality.  Regardless, no one wants to wake up the Monkey in the larger academic world. 

 

Short answer, I don't know if Sumerian is Armenian related or not, but there are certainly tantalizing clues that Sumerian culture and vocabulary were heavily influenced by Armenian culture and language.



#49 Arpa

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 05:03 PM

I don't have .
Many words are still in use in Arabic (some of them I think borrowed from Aramaic), in Arabic dialects, in Armenian, but most words are strange.
I think hurrian languages and Sumerian are far-near relatives. What you say?

I don't have .
Many words are still in use in Arabic (some of them I think borrowed from Aramaic), in Arabic dialects, in Armenian, but most words are strange.
I think hurrian languages and Sumerian are far-near relatives. What you say?

Վերէւ ես ասի որ Աճառեանը կանտեսէ Արաբերէնը եւ կը հէնու 0սմանլի քամուսի, լրիվ անտեսեէլով Արամերէնը: Միթէ նա գիտեր՞ որ օսմանա արաբերէնը մեծ մասամ Արամերէն է: Յիսուս Արամերէն կը խօսէր:Երբ նա ըսաւ Տալիտա Քումի , դա նաշանակի Աղջնակ ելիր, կանքնիր, յարուցիր:
Եւ երբ նա ըսաւ Eli, Eli lama Sabatini, Արաբերէն գիտցողները գիտէն որ այդ սա է: Ilahi, Ilahi lima sabaqni, Why did you get ahead of me, why did you leave me behin, why did you beat me at the foot race. Ինչու ինձ անցար, ինչու զիս ետ թողուցիր, ինչու ինձ յաղթեցիր մրցարշավի ընթացքին:
Օհաննէս մեզ գրիր թէ այդ խօսքը ինչպէս գրուի Արաբատառով:

Edited by Arpa, 24 January 2014 - 05:07 PM.


#50 hagopn

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Posted 24 January 2014 - 09:13 PM

Hagop,
They were our and other nations ancestors, but I don't believe that they were Germans or celts or Armenians or Iranians.
This is after ice age a million year ....!?
Երբ տրոհուեցաւ ՀՆխ, , այդ ժամանակ նախահայերէնի, նախագերմաներէնի եւ այլ լեզուներու եւ ազգերու ծնունդ տեղի ունեցաւ:

 

Յովհաննես, Եղբայր, Ինձ սխալ հասկըցար։

 

The Wurm ice age period started approximately 40,000 years ago and ended approximately 13,000 to 10,000 years ago, depending on location.  The Mammoth became mostly extinct except for a few cold climate pockets in Asia at about that period, and the quite sophisticated the cave cultures of southern France exemplified by the Dordogne and Chauvet caves ended perhaps in the 40,000 to 30,000 year period.  The opinion of many is that large migrations back to the east took place.  Asia Minor and especially the Armenian Plateau were warmer and habitable regions that also offered security from many elements due to the topography.  The neolithic period saw light in this era, an era that also saw Gobekli Tepe in addition to a very dense rock carving presence/culture that might very well be the ancestor of the later Mesopotamian/Ubbayid and the Kur-Arax (present day eastern Armenia and Artsakh, coincidentally) cultures. 

 

This is the period I am talking about. 


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#51 Johannes

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 09:54 AM

Վերէւ ես ասի որ Աճառեանը կանտեսէ Արաբերէնը եւ կը հէնու 0սմանլի քամուսի, լրիվ անտեսեէլով Արամերէնը: Միթէ նա գիտեր՞ որ օսմանա արաբերէնը մեծ մասամ Արամերէն է: Յիսուս Արամերէն կը խօսէր:Երբ նա ըսաւ Տալիտա Քումի , դա նաշանակի Աղջնակ ելիր, կանքնիր, յարուցիր:
Եւ երբ նա ըսաւ Eli, Eli lama Sabatini, Արաբերէն գիտցողները գիտէն որ այդ սա է: Ilahi, Ilahi lima sabaqni, Why did you get ahead of me, why did you leave me behin, why did you beat me at the foot race. Ինչու ինձ անցար, ինչու զիս ետ թողուցիր, ինչու ինձ յաղթեցիր մրցարշավի ընթացքին:
Օհաննէս մեզ գրիր թէ այդ խօսքը ինչպէս գրուի Արաբատառلي,

إيـلي إيـلي, لما سـبـقـتـني



#52 Johannes

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 10:00 AM

 

Յովհաննես, Եղբայր, Ինձ սխալ հասկըցար։

 

The Wurm ice age period started approximately 40,000 years ago and ended approximately 13,000 to 10,000 years ago, depending on location.  The Mammoth became mostly extinctԷ except for a few cold climate pockets in Asia at about that period, and the quite sophisticated the cave cultures of southern France exemplified by the Dordogne and Chauvet caves ended perhaps in the 40,000 to 30,000 year period.  The opinion of many is that large migrations back to the east took place.  Asia Minor and especially the Armenian Plateau were warmer and habitable regions that also offered security from many elements due to the topography.  The neolithic period saw light in this era, an era that also saw Gobekli Tepe in addition to a very dense rock carving presence/culture that might very well be the ancestor of the later Mesopotamian/Ubbayid and the Kur-Arax (present day eastern Armenia and Artsakh, coincidentally) cultures. 

 

This is the period I am talking about. 

Սիրելի Յակոբ, շնորհակալ եմ: Լաւ չեմ հասկցած, թերեւս անգլերէն շատ չիմանալուս պատճառով: ,,,Ինչպէս կարելի է գաղթականները հայեր անուանել, հայախօս եւ դեռ բոլոր ազգերուն ծնող ազգ համարուիլ... Իմ կարդացած գրութիւններուն մէջ այդպէս կը մեկնաբանուի:

 

Ես շատ հանդիպած եմ գիտաերեւակայական գրութիւններու, ուր հայանուն եւ օտարանուն հեղինակներ լուրջ-լուրջ կը յայտարարեն՝ բրիտները, բասկերը, կելտերը, գերմանները ծագումով Հայեր են:

 

թուրքերն ալ էտրուսկներուն թուրքական ծագում կը վերագրեն, հիմնուելով էտրուսկեան tarquinia եւ նման տեղանուններու եւ այլ անուններու վրայ:

ինչով տարբեր ենք թուրքերէն, պատմութիւն կեղծելու մէջ:


Edited by Johannes, 25 January 2014 - 10:17 AM.


#53 Arpa

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 11:59 AM

I am so glad to see our friends Hagop and Johannes talking again after a long well deserved nap./մրափ.
I dont intend to trivialize this serious and highly intellectual debate, but allow me to be a little silly :silly:
I am so glad to see that my old buddy Hagop has waken up after a long nap. We do appreciate his highly intellectual and well researched contributions.
Յագոբ Եղբայր ննջում՞, մրափում Էիր:
It spares me from singing this silly ditty.
----
Յագոբ եղբայր, Յագոբ եղբայր արթնցիր
Զանգակները կը հնչեն
Դինկ դանկ դոնկ:

Անգլերէն տարբերակը կասէ Օհան եղբայր:
---
Are you sleeping, are you sleeping?
Brother John, Brother John?
Morning bells are ringing, morning bells are ringing
Ding dang dong, ding da ng dong.
-----
Add the Armenian Ը as Frere /Ֆրերը. And Jacques/Ժաքը:
---
Frère Jacques, frère Jacques,
Dormez-vous ? Dormez-vous ?
Sonnez les matines ! Sonnez les matines !
Ding, daing, dong. Ding, daing, dong.
---
And now, after all that levity I will step aside and let Hagop and Johannes continue. We are so appreciative/ գննահատ and grateful, երախտապարտ.
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#54 hagopn

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:04 PM

Գիտերեւայականը այն է, որ կ՚անտեսէ փաստը «քանի որ չի կարելի թուրքին նմանիլ։  Ամօթ է»։  Շատ մե՚ծ տարբերութիւն կայ, բայց չենք ուզեր տեսնել։  Մեզ կապիկի նման սորվեցուցեր են անտեսել։  Ինչքան ալ փաստ ներկայացուի, զսպանակի պէս Կապիկի ձգտումը կը վերադարնայ։  Ոչ մեկ ժամանակ հայախոս կամ «հայ լինելու» պնդումներ չեղան։  Հայաստանի եւ հայ մշակոյթի ազդեցութեան մասին է խոսքը, եւ հայ գաղթի հետքեր փնտրելն է հարցը։

 

Կներես որ անգելերենով պիտի շարունակեմ։  ռ եւ ր գիրերու սխալ տեղադրումը ինձ շատ կը չարչարէ։ 



#55 hagopn

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:36 PM

If we understand ծագում as origin in the absolute sense, then there would be a problem.  "Yes. the Britons were Armenians."  There are possibilities as to why the British monk Bede said what he said.  Armenians didn't say it.  Khorenatsi didn't say it.  Bede the Monk wrote it!  http://en.wikipedia....Saxon_Chronicle

 

Ivanov-Gamkrelidze found the IE homeland to be Armenia, Van and vicinity.   

 

The neolithic era began there.  The Bronze first saw light there.  The Iron Age first saw light there.

 

So what do we do with this information?  Ignore it?  Hovaness, are you still worried about us looking like the ridiculous pan-Turks?  I am truly surprised you don't see the difference.

 

Tarqinia you say?  The entire "Turan" and "Tarku" and so on series is also probably of Armenian origin!  We have the "Torq" legend, the mythical giant, the king who sank ships by throwing boulders into the sea.  Khorenatsi remembers him as Torgom, an actual king, who apparently was ruler of the Angegh Tun, the Eagle Clan or Dynasty who ruled Taron, which is most probably the Turan in the Shahname. 

 

And why can it not be?  Because "amot e"? 



#56 hagopn

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 12:53 PM

What about that interesting Annolied http://en.wikipedia...._from_Armenians ?

 

Is that "fiction" as well?  The Bavarian name apparently is possibly of Armenian origin!



#57 Yervant1

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:18 PM

In the early nineties, I told an Irish teacher that his ancestry was Armenian! He recoiled and gave me the dirty look as if saying me descended after your people in amazement to which I said don't kill the messenger, just go and study world history since you're a teacher. :lol2:


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#58 Johannes

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:44 PM

If we understand ծագում as origin in the absolute sense, then there would be a problem.  "Yes. the Britons were Armenians."  There are possibilities as to why the British monk Bede said what he said.  Armenians didn't say it.  Khorenatsi didn't say it.  Bede the Monk wrote it!  http://en.wikipedia....Saxon_Chronicle
 
Ivanov-Gamkrelidze found the IE homeland to be Armenia, Van and vicinity.   
 
The neolithic era began there.  The Bronze first saw light there.  The Iron Age first saw light there.
 
So what do we do with this information?  Ignore it?  Hovaness, are you still worried about us looking like the ridiculous pan-Turks?  I am truly surprised you don't see the difference.
 
Tarqinia you say?  The entire "Turan" and "Tarku" and so on series is also probably of Armenian origin!  We have the "Torq" legend, the mythical giant, the king who sank ships by throwing boulders into the sea.  Khorenatsi remembers him as Torgom, an actual king, who apparently was ruler of the Angegh Tun, the Eagle Clan or Dynasty who ruled Taron, which is most probably the Turan in the Shahname. 
 
And why can it not be?  Because "amot e"?

Here is http://www.britannia...docs/1-448.html
Monk Bede said they came from Armenia, he didn't say they were Armenians. Britons are Celtic people.
Անոնք իրապէս տարածուած էին Սեւ Ծովէն մինչեւ Իբերական թերակղզի:
Galatians, celts, Galicia ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

Edited by Johannes, 25 January 2014 - 01:54 PM.


#59 Johannes

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 01:52 PM

What about that interesting Annolied http://en.wikipedia...._from_Armenians ?
 
Is that "fiction" as well?  The Bavarian name apparently is possibly of Armenian origin!


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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminius

#60 hagopn

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Posted 25 January 2014 - 03:14 PM

I interpret it as Bede having meant Armenians.  Celts were prevalent in Europe, the Balkans, only a small part of Asia Minor, and simply were not from Armenia proper. 

 

My assumption is that an Armenian speaking legion that remained on the British isles, originally perhaps  under Hadrian's command, was cause for this opinion.  Others are more bold and say that the Britons were in fact another tribe of the Thraco-Phrygian group of whom Armenian is a member by relying on Ellis' linguistic analysis.  The chronology of Celtic migration is up for grabs. 

 

Both languages are members of the IE group, but that is only relevant for relatively recent Armenian migrations.

 

There are interesting mythological and linguistic links, aside from the glaringly similar political model, between Armenians and Celts.  The only difference is that the Celts were more matriarchal in their mythology and political leanings than Armenians, something that Armenians also apparently once were.  The deities, such as Ara, that were feminine and local for Armenians that later became masculine, remained feminine, almost unchanged among the Celts.  

 

Now you say that Bede actually meant to say that the Britons were Celts who came from Galatia.  Galatia was a specific region of western Asia Minor where a small population of Gallic people, supposedly Celtoi, lived.  Galatia simple was not Armenia!   Unless, of course, Bede considered all of Asia Minor, the Armenian Plateau, the northwest Zagros, and the entirety of the Caucasus as Armenia, as the Arab chroniclers also often did.  This is possible, but doubtful.  Bede was specific: Armenia.

 

There are those who try to explain away why Bede says Armenia.  The Monkeys have done better than you ->:)  They have said Bede misspelled Amerois ( or something like that, I can't remember the concoction) or some other nonsense.






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