62 replies to this topic

[TigranG]

Lately I have been hearing a lot of Armenian people on this forum depicting Armenia to be a European country and its culture as European...
I still cant understand why people ignore facts so here is a little information on this matter...

Lonely Planet website states the following:

"If you're unsure what the flavour of southwest Asia is, a quick look around Yerevan will tell you it's Middle Eastern, albeit Middle Eastern without mosques and Islam".

http://webcenter.tra...ia/culture.html

Although "Lonely Planet" recognizes the correct geographical area of Armenia (Southwest Asia), with much ignorance they still list it as part of Europe...

I believe that in certain areas, America, though being an Industrial giant, lacks much education, or atleast the common Americans do...

Edited by TigranG, 29 September 2005 - 12:41 PM.

[Arvestaked]

You've created a thousand topics with the same goddamn subject. Honestly, if I ever did, I no longer give flying crap about your issue with people claiming the Europeanness or Caucasianness of the Armenians. Move on, already, for Hell's sake.

[TigranG]

I will not move on untill the people who claim Armenia to be culturally European, explain their reasoning for such statements!

This topic has nothing to do with the race issue...

Edited by TigranG, 29 September 2005 - 12:43 PM.

[Arvestaked]

Ok. Not moving should include not typing.

[Harut]

i would like you to descibe the european and middle eastern cultures, so i can identify to which one of them the armenian culture belongs to...

[DominO]

Tigran, I fail to see the aim of starting multiple threads. Are you attempting to alienate those that support your position?

It's a worthless discussion, Europe is a social construct, debating about this, is like debating if race exists as biological basis.

[Vanetsi]

Why do you feel the need to categorize Armenians? You act as though we're refusing to make the concession of being Middle Eastern... as though we're claiming to be European to feel superior. This is simple-minded bigotry. NO RACE IS INNATELY BETTER THAN ANY OTHER.

[TigranG]

MUSIC
"Folk music is still very much alive in Armenia and in the diaspora. Armenian music in its authentic, unadulterated form belongs to the Middle Eastern tradition". (zurna,davul,dhol,doumbek,santur,kemenche,tar,oud, kanoon, saz, etc)...

http://www.geocities...tomzara/tai.htm

FOOD
Shish kebab, lavash, kofta, pilaf, matnakash, tabouleh, etc...

CUSTOMS
Tradition of rug making (mostly middle eastern), the use of henna with the wedding ceremonies (middle eastern), traditional clothes (middle eastern to a certain degree), traditional dances (middle eastern to a certain degree)...

ANCIENT ARMENIAN CULTURE
Armenians worshiped Assyrian and Zoroastrian gods in the pre-christian era... (Khaldi,Tesiheba, Shivini, Khutuini, Turani, Ua, Nalaini, Shebitu, Arsimela, Anapsha, Mihr, Astghik, Vahagn, Tir, and Anahit) Armenian culture strongly resembled the pre-islamic Persia... Even now Armenian culture is the closest to Persian, without Islam of course...

Edited by TigranG, 29 September 2005 - 02:01 PM.

[TigranG]

I agree that no race is better than any other...

The reason why I started with these topics is because I am tired of Armenian people disguising themselves in America and Europe, to be European, falsifying that Armenia is in Europe... I am sick and tired of Armenians trying to disconnect themselves from the rest of the middle eastern people...

I am not starting a new thread to gain support, I started this spacific topic to break away from the issues in my other thread such as race...
Because I did not receive any explanations as to why Armenian people consider their culture to be European, that is all...

"Europe" in its purest form is nothing more than a region which was created by ethnically/culturally political and physically geographical borders...

Edited by TigranG, 29 September 2005 - 02:04 PM.

[phantom]

I agree that no race is better than any other...

The reason why I started with these topics is because I am tired of Armenian people disguising themselves in America and Europe, to be European, falsifying that Armenia is in Europe... I am sick and tired of Armenians trying to disconnect themselves from the rest of the middle eastern people...

I am not starting a new thread to gain support, I started this spacific topic to break away from the issues in my other thread such as race...
Because I did not receive any explanations as to why Armenian people consider their culture to be European, that is all...

"Europe" in its purest form is nothing more than a region which was created by ethnically/culturally political and physically geographical borders...

I touched on this in the other thread under History, but I think that "Europe" does not so much identify a particular culture as it does a unique idealogy or set of values. There is no one "culture" in Europe. The Swedes have their own culture, holidays, foods, music and traditions, while the Greeks have a totally different set, which is different from the Dutch. But they all embrace a set of values relating to civil rights, women's rights, education, high literacy, respect for different religeons and cultures, etc. I think it is this idealogy that forms the concept of "Europe". It's not a geographic limitation, a religious limitation, or a physical limitation. If Armenians tend to embrace the same values, then we can say that we embrace European values or that our tendencies are European. What's wrong with that. Plus, I think it is true, particularly when compared to everyone else in our neighborhood? Don't we embrace the values of Europe more than we do those of Iran and the rest of the middle east today? Perhaps, we don't fully embrace all of the "European" values that, e.g., Denmark embraces, but we certainly embrace more European values than the majority of Turks and they are aspiring to be part of the EU.

So when we hear Armenians saying they are European or more European than others, I think they are referring to European ideals more than they are to geography or genetics, wouldn't you agree that in that sense we are certainly more European than any of our neighbors. Also, if being European is only about the color of your skin, then we are more European than the Portuguese, Italians, and Spaniards, because they are generally darker than us.

[TigranG]

The correct way to interpret that, is to say that Armenians are thriving towards the western ideology not spacifically European, because the first nation in the west to adopt "freedom" and "open-minded" ideas was America when they wanted more freedom from Europe...

You are wrong in terms of "Europe being an Ideology", it is a region/a geographical term. What you are describing is the western Ideology...
Many Asian countries practice the same ideology, without the claim of being European!

Edited by TigranG, 29 September 2005 - 02:47 PM.

[phantom]

The correct way to interpret that, is to say that Armenians are thriving towards the western ideology not spacifically European, because the first nation in the west to adopt "freedom" and "open-minded" ideas was America when they wanted more freedom from Europe...

You are wrong in terms of "Europe being an Ideology", it is a region/a geographical term. What you are describing is the western Ideology...
Many Asian countries practice the same ideology, without the claim of being  European!

I guess I need to clarify. I realize that Europe is a geographical location. But what I meant to say is that when Armenians say they are European or like Europeans, I think they are thinking of the term "European" as an idealogical identification rather than a geographical identification. And frankly, I tend to hear Armenians argue that they are Western in orientation more than they say they are European. So perhaps your view that the ideology I described is better described as Western has not been lost on most Armenians.

[TigranG]

Well said! I wish more people had the mentality to explain it as well as you have...
Instead of arguing...

Edited by TigranG, 29 September 2005 - 02:58 PM.

[TigranG]

So we have finally come to a conclusion after all this time...
Armenians are geographically and culturally middle eastern, but with western orientation, which they very are proud of... Finally

Phantom, thank you for your dead-on explanation...

I am glad for this lengthly topic to end!

[Zartonk]

European or Middle Eastern? I say none, because it is Armenian.
Now, I am not dismissing the Western ideological orienation, nor the Eastern antiquity it posseses, but Europe and Middle East are just georgraphical terms, best left to the cartographer. As QueBeceR mentioned, this is a topic of social construct. European or Middle Eastern: how and why does it matter..?

Edited by Zartonk, 29 September 2005 - 03:14 PM.

[kakachik77]

if we are so welcome in the Middle East why did they have to ethnically cleanse us from Anatolia based on our religion/value system etc.

[kakachik77]

So we  have finally come to a conclusion after all this time...
Armenians are geographically and culturally middle eastern, but with western orientation, which they very are proud of... Finally

Phantom, thank you for your dead-on explanation...

I am glad for this lengthly topic to end!

ONLY YOU came to that conclusion. As you understand, we Armenians don't like to be dogmatized and think alike. We cherish our individualism and the idea that we can have a pluralist society idealogicly speaking. While there are numerous disaggrements about this very topic that you keep bringing up God only knows for what reason - you get as much variety in answers as possible. And I feel extremely sorry for you to categorize America as the first country to adopt values of freedom. One simple example, in 1918 when Armenia became independent women where given the right to vote without any debate, in America women got this right only in 1919 after years of struggle. Something to ponder about.

[hytga]

don't you have anything else to talk about other than posting the same topic under different titles and slightly modified versions?

Edited by hytga, 30 September 2005 - 05:21 PM.

[gamavor]

I will not move on untill the people who claim Armenia to be culturally European, explain their reasoning for such statements!

I'm afraid you don't know much of Armenian culture. What you have been saying all along is the fact that the Armenian culture was Middle EAsternized which is undenying fact. However, if you keep reading the forum you might discover things that otherwise your petite and stagmatized brain have no chance to comprehend. Elaborate Tigranoglu, elaborate...

[Melikian]

Lately I have been hearing a lot of Armenian people on this forum depicting Armenia to be a European country and its culture as European...
I still cant understand why people ignore facts so here is a little information on this matter...

Although "Lonely Planet" recognizes the correct geographical area of Armenia (Southwest Asia), with much ignorance they still list it as part of Europe...

I believe that in certain areas, America, though being an Industrial giant, lacks much education, or atleast the common Americans do...

Tigran

Present day Armenia is technically in Europe, the continental line is not straight. I was surprised when I discovered this from a encyclopedia.

Both of my parents were Armenians as am I, we all consider ourselves as Europeans.

I was born in the US and think that Americians are well educated, but are not knowledgeable on many things, history, culture, geography, politics, ETC. Educated people can be ignorant.

Respectfully

Melikian