Easy there buddy! It's not a good idea to be so divisive. Besides, didn't you hear the most recent info to come out of Bolis is that the Patriarch there publicly spoke some very braves words about the 90th Anniversary of the Genocide. See the California Courier's most recent discussion about this on Groong. Anyway, we should all want Turkey to join the EU after it acknowledges the Genocide and opens its borders. That would be a good thing for Armenia to have a European and presumably less belligerent neighbor, wouldn't it?!.
Turkey's Accession To Eu
Started by
Maral
, Dec 13 2004 01:51 AM
89 replies to this topic
#81
Posted 05 January 2005 - 04:09 PM
QUOTE (Nakharar @ Jan 5 2005, 05:09 PM)
Easy there buddy! It's not a good idea to be so divisive. Besides, didn't you hear the most recent info to come out of Bolis is that the Patriarch there publicly spoke some very braves words about the 90th Anniversary of the Genocide. See the California Courier's most recent discussion about this on Groong. Anyway, we should all want Turkey to join the EU after it acknowledges the Genocide and opens its borders. That would be a good thing for Armenia to have a European and presumably less belligerent neighbor, wouldn't it?!.
#82
Posted 05 January 2005 - 06:03 PM
QUOTE (phantom @ Jan 5 2005, 05:09 PM)
Easy there buddy! It's not a good idea to be so divisive. Besides, didn't you hear the most recent info to come out of Bolis is that the Patriarch there publicly spoke some very braves words about the 90th Anniversary of the Genocide. See the California Courier's most recent discussion about this on Groong. Anyway, we should all want Turkey to join the EU after it acknowledges the Genocide and opens its borders. That would be a good thing for Armenia to have a European and presumably less belligerent neighbor, wouldn't it?!.
If there was an answer that would finaly make you decide to post here again, it was certainly this one.
BTW Phantom, I have to congradulate you for your way of dealing with denialists, you've become REALLY good at it.
#83
Posted 06 January 2005 - 11:03 AM
QUOTE (phantom @ Jan 5 2005, 11:09 PM)
Easy there buddy! It's not a good idea to be so divisive. Besides, didn't you hear the most recent info to come out of Bolis is that the Patriarch there publicly spoke some very braves words about the 90th Anniversary of the Genocide. See the California Courier's most recent discussion about this on Groong. Anyway, we should all want Turkey to join the EU after it acknowledges the Genocide and opens its borders. That would be a good thing for Armenia to have a European and presumably less belligerent neighbor, wouldn't it?!.
Sorry buddy. When I read the headline by that newspaper I got incensed. I'm not expecting them to rebel against their government but a little assertiveness would have been better. I read the statement by Patriarch Mesrob and I must say I am very impressed. Turkey will never join te EU whether we want to or not because let's face it they are very poor and underdeveloped. We shouldn't put our hope on that.
I'm going to visit Istanbul in February or March. Do you know Naregatsi Comic Cafe? Is it any good? I know that some of names on the menu have references to the Armenian Genocide. Deir Zor salad and such.
#84
Posted 06 January 2005 - 05:05 PM
QUOTE (Domino @ Jan 6 2005, 12:03 AM)
If there was an answer that would finaly make you decide to post here again, it was certainly this one.
BTW Phantom, I have to congradulate you for your way of dealing with denialists, you've become REALLY good at it.
BTW Phantom, I have to congradulate you for your way of dealing with denialists, you've become REALLY good at it.
Thanks Domino. The more I learn about the Genocide, the more irritated I get at the shallow denials you hear from Turkish people on the Internet. They seem so convinced of their position. Sometimes, I'm even convinced that they believe what they are saying. But with the ones who know more than the usual shallow "back-stabber" excuses, I think they know that it was a Genocide, but they are so afraid of it becoming common knowledge or acknowledged by Turkey, because they think they'll have to pay Armenians money or give up land. I think that the average Turk would rather cut off their own testicles and store them in a jar next to their bed than give Armenians anything, much less money or land. They don't like us, and with each passing day, I think they hate us even more, because of the seemingly renewed interest in this subject by academics and increased acknowledgment of the Genocide by goverments and also because of Karabagh. Anyway, it makes me sad, because I don't hate Turks and I don't want to hate them even though they do so much harm to Armenia and to Armenian history. I wish they would shape up so that I could feel good for once for coming from Turkey.
#85
Posted 06 January 2005 - 05:19 PM
QUOTE (Nakharar @ Jan 6 2005, 05:03 PM)
Sorry buddy. When I read the headline by that newspaper I got incensed. I'm not expecting them to rebel against their government but a little assertiveness would have been better. I read the statement by Patriarch Mesrob and I must say I am very impressed. Turkey will never join te EU whether we want to or not because let's face it they are very poor and underdeveloped. We shouldn't put our hope on that.
I'm going to visit Istanbul in February or March. Do you know Naregatsi Comic Cafe? Is it any good? I know that some of names on the menu have references to the Armenian Genocide. Deir Zor salad and such.
I'm going to visit Istanbul in February or March. Do you know Naregatsi Comic Cafe? Is it any good? I know that some of names on the menu have references to the Armenian Genocide. Deir Zor salad and such.
You know, I haven't been back to Bolis since I left there when I was 4, so I don't know about that cafe. My dad lives there though, and I can ask for the names of some good restaurants and find out if Naregatsi is any good. I'll also ask him if he knows of any other good Armenian owned restaurants.
#86
Posted 06 January 2005 - 05:34 PM
QUOTE (phantom @ Jan 6 2005, 06:05 PM)
Thanks Domino. The more I learn about the Genocide, the more irritated I get at the shallow denials you hear from Turkish people on the Internet. They seem so convinced of their position. Sometimes, I'm even convinced that they believe what they are saying. But with the ones who know more than the usual shallow "back-stabber" excuses, I think they know that it was a Genocide, but they are so afraid of it becoming common knowledge or acknowledged by Turkey, because they think they'll have to pay Armenians money or give up land. I think that the average Turk would rather cut off their own testicles and store them in a jar next to their bed than give Armenians anything, much less money or land. They don't like us, and with each passing day, I think they hate us even more, because of the seemingly renewed interest in this subject by academics and increased acknowledgment of the Genocide by goverments and also because of Karabagh. Anyway, it makes me sad, because I don't hate Turks and I don't want to hate them even though they do so much harm to Armenia and to Armenian history. I wish they would shape up so that I could feel good for once for coming from Turkey.
You are starting to feel exactly how I feel. Many claim sharing the same sentiment, but they do not share it. What you are now feeling is not what the typical Armenian feel, it is what many Armenian intellectuals feel after trying to debate in vain. You will realise, and probably already realised that you can not make them change. You already said to me in the past about just stopping this and letting them believe what they want... but you can't stop and you know it. Again the same example with the astrophysicist knowing that he will never find the secrets about all the universe, but he just can't stop wanting them... or a researcher that know he could not find the cure for all the diseases, but he can't prevent himself wanting them. You are here, finding some pleasure debating with Turks, even if their behavor disgust you, something in you is telling to continue doing that, again, again and again, when your reason is telling you it won't change them.
What you are doing is NOT WORTHLESS, you are defending history, you are preventing victims memory to be hijacked, this alone is enought of a reason to kick those denialist buts, and taking pleasure at doing it, again, again and again, knowing perfectly that you wont change them. Your goal should not be changing their opinion, your goal is to defend the truth, and to teach other young Armenians visiting those boards, and they will start immitating you... and in their turn, they will understand that they can't change denialist minds, but that that is not important. What is important is to make denialists realise that we are well armed, and we have answers for every trash they will spew...
You've become someone that denialists fear. And please, the next time don't tell a denialist when talking about me: "you don't know with whom you're dealing with etc." You're now a leading head in those forum wars, a JEDI, let others tell denialists they don't know with whom they are dealing with when talking about you.
#87
Posted 06 January 2005 - 06:40 PM
QUOTE (Domino @ Jan 6 2005, 11:34 PM)
You are starting to feel exactly how I feel. Many claim sharing the same sentiment, but they do not share it. What you are now feeling is not what the typical Armenian feel, it is what many Armenian intellectuals feel after trying to debate in vain. You will realise, and probably already realised that you can not make them change. You already said to me in the past about just stopping this and letting them believe what they want... but you can't stop and you know it. Again the same example with the astrophysicist knowing that he will never find the secrets about all the universe, but he just can't stop wanting them... or a researcher that know he could not find the cure for all the diseases, but he can't prevent himself wanting them. You are here, finding some pleasure debating with Turks, even if their behavor disgust you, something in you is telling to continue doing that, again, again and again, when your reason is telling you it won't change them.
What you are doing is NOT WORTHLESS, you are defending history, you are preventing victims memory to be hijacked, this alone is enought of a reason to kick those denialist buts, and taking pleasure at doing it, again, again and again, knowing perfectly that you wont change them. Your goal should not be changing their opinion, your goal is to defend the truth, and to teach other young Armenians visiting those boards, and they will start immitating you... and in their turn, they will understand that they can't change denialist minds, but that that is not important. What is important is to make denialists realise that we are well armed, and we have answers for every trash they will spew...
You've become someone that denialists fear. And please, the next time don't tell a denialist when talking about me: "you don't know with whom you're dealing with etc." You're now a leading head in those forum wars, a JEDI, let others tell denialists they don't know with whom they are dealing with when talking about you.
What you are doing is NOT WORTHLESS, you are defending history, you are preventing victims memory to be hijacked, this alone is enought of a reason to kick those denialist buts, and taking pleasure at doing it, again, again and again, knowing perfectly that you wont change them. Your goal should not be changing their opinion, your goal is to defend the truth, and to teach other young Armenians visiting those boards, and they will start immitating you... and in their turn, they will understand that they can't change denialist minds, but that that is not important. What is important is to make denialists realise that we are well armed, and we have answers for every trash they will spew...
You've become someone that denialists fear. And please, the next time don't tell a denialist when talking about me: "you don't know with whom you're dealing with etc." You're now a leading head in those forum wars, a JEDI, let others tell denialists they don't know with whom they are dealing with when talking about you.
True that! But let me tell you, every time I have to promise myself that I will remain calm and not get into an insult war with these people. And usually I manage to keep my answers directed at the topic and stay focused, but it is very difficult, because I attract the insults based solely on the position that I take. These forums are not designed for rational, objective, and unheated discussions. There is no control or no neutral bystander who steers the topic or mediates. Thus, it eventually turns into a situation where I am called a liar/fabricator/dirty lawyer, etc., and then the discussion ends, because I stop talking at that point. Denialists are good at changing the subject, deflecting, bringing up irrelevant facts or issues, and calling names, as you well know. Yes, I can't help myself, but at the same time, I feel stupid for bothering with these people in these forums.
By the way, to this day, I have never heard any Turk respond to the fact that in 1919, Turkish officials put the murder count during the deportations at 800,000. Have you ever heard an answer from a denialist about this fact? How do they manage to ignore it and still claim that only 300,000 Armenians were killed?
#88
Posted 06 January 2005 - 09:52 PM
QUOTE (phantom @ Jan 6 2005, 07:40 PM)
By the way, to this day, I have never heard any Turk respond to the fact that in 1919, Turkish officials put the murder count during the deportations at 800,000. Have you ever heard an answer from a denialist about this fact? How do they manage to ignore it and still claim that only 300,000 Armenians were killed?
Come on Phantom, it isn't the only thing that they won't ever respond directly. Remember at t.com when I had posted a bunch of questions for Turks to answer and they waren't even able to answer a single of them? The only crap they will cook about it, is that it was a propaganda from occupied Ottoman to please the allies. The only that really tried to answer why it appeared in Orbays memoir was the author of tallarmeniantale in a discussion at g.com(you probably remember it). He turned around the issue without daring to go directly and answering it.
Do you remember Iseewhitepeople? The foundamentalist Turk that wanted to keep me and exterminate the rest of the Armenians. Even though this guy was an extremist to the core, in such issues, when facts were presented, he never really tried to twist them. He accepted the 800,000 figure.
Isn't it funny that those that shout racism in every discussions are the first racists themselves. Some Turks are really cute when just after slandering, generalising Armenians they shout racism.
Anyway, consider hyeforum your internet home, and other forums as taking a walk outside your home, and come visit here more often.
Edited by Fadix, 06 January 2005 - 09:55 PM.
#89
Posted 07 January 2005 - 02:28 AM
QUOTE (Nakharar @ Jan 6 2005, 05:03 PM)
I'm going to visit Istanbul in February or March. Do you know Naregatsi Comic Cafe? Is it any good? I know that some of names on the menu have references to the Armenian Genocide. Deir Zor salad and such.
You must be joking. Dayr az-Zawr salad? Sarkis likely serves pop and tiramisu.
#90
Posted 19 January 2005 - 12:48 PM
EURASIA INSIGHT
TURKISH DRIVE TOWARDS EU INCREASES POSSIBILITIES FOR CHANGE IN THE CAUCASUS
Jon Gorvett 1/06/05
The European Union’s decision to pursue membership talks with Turkey could have far-reaching political and economic ramifications for the Caucasus. The accession process can stimulate democratization in the region, experts say.
The EU decided December 17 to open what promises to be a lengthy accession process with Turkey. Some political observers in Turkey say the decision immediately increased pressure on Ankara to normalize relations with neighboring Armenia. In recent months, Ankara and Yerevan have probed a rapprochement, but they have yet to make substantive progress in overcoming long-standing mutual hostility. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].
"If Turkey starts accession talks," adds Professor Gareth Winrow of Istanbul’s Bilgi University, "it will have to normalize relations with all its neighbors as a condition of future EU membership. Number one, this means opening all its borders."
Turkey’s has kept its frontier with Armenia closed since 1993. The closure is connected with a Turkish embargo designed to encourage Armenia’s withdrawal from Azerbaijani territory captured during the Nagorno-Karabkah conflict. [For additional information see the Eurasia Insight archive]. Turkish political leaders in mid-2004 mulled re-opening the border, but the idea met fierce resistance, both in Turkey and in Azerbaijan, and officials backed off the idea. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].
Turkish observers say the government will have a difficult time finessing the border issue, adding that despite the EU pressure, the status quo may not change in the near future. "If Turkey just opened the border because of EU pressure, there might easily be a backlash," warned Mustafa Sahin of the Ankara-based Eurasian think tank, AVSAM. "Azerbaijan is a very popular cause in Turkey. Also, Armenia still has territorial claims on Turkey that would have to be solved."
Turkish territorial concerns stem from Armenia’s refusal to recognize the Kars Treaty of 1921, which set the frontiers between the two states. Armenia claims there is no need for such recognition, as acceptance of the existing borders was implicit when both countries joined the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). Turkey, however, continues to seek a specific guarantee of Armenian recognition for the existing border.
Armenian President Robert Kocharian in late 2004 appealed to the EU to place the opening of the frontier among the pre-conditions for Turkey’s EU membership. "It is unacceptable for a country that is to have membership talks with the EU to keep its border closed with another country that is already in the neighborhood policy of Europe," Kocharian said.
The Armenian leader was referring to the EU Neighborhood Policy (EUNP), which was formulated to provide a framework for states bordering on the EU, such as Moldova and Ukraine. "The EUNP is designed to give support and dialogue to those countries that have no prospect of joining for now," adds Winrow. "At first, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan were excluded from the EUNP, but after the Rose Revolution in Georgia, the EU changed its mind and allowed them in." [For additional information see the Eurasia Insight archive].
If Turkey and Armenia can eventually settle their differences, some observers believe pressure could increase on the Baku and Yerevan to reach a Artsax settlement. Others, however, are guarded about the possibilities. "Accession talks won’t have any direct effect on the Armenian issue," suggested Ferai Tinc, a political analyst for the Hurriyet daily. "We’ve seen many times before these moves to sort out the border."
Nevertheless, Tinc and others say Turkey’s move towards EU membership cannot but have a positive impact on the Caucasus. "It will send a message to the region that will be good for the democratization process," says Tinc. "Turkey’s relations with the Caucasian states will be within a different framework – not as a big brother, but as a member of a community."
Sahin, the AVSAM think-tank expert, said that even though Armenia views Turkey with suspicion, a significant number of Armenians want to see Ankara’s accession effort succeed. "Armenia is a little split on the issue," Sahin said. "But even there, many argue that Turkey’s accession process will give Armenia greater leverage for change."
Meanwhile, others see Turkey’s European path as helping to widen EU influence with another regional big power, Russia. "Turkey can play a very important role here," says Winrow. "As can an organization such as the Black Sea Economic Cooperation (BSEC). Turkey can show its strategic importance to Europe and get better and closer regional relations through this."
Editor’s Note: Jon Gorvett is a freelance journalist based in Istanbul.
http://www.eurasiane...av010605a.shtml
TURKISH DRIVE TOWARDS EU INCREASES POSSIBILITIES FOR CHANGE IN THE CAUCASUS
Jon Gorvett 1/06/05
The European Union’s decision to pursue membership talks with Turkey could have far-reaching political and economic ramifications for the Caucasus. The accession process can stimulate democratization in the region, experts say.
The EU decided December 17 to open what promises to be a lengthy accession process with Turkey. Some political observers in Turkey say the decision immediately increased pressure on Ankara to normalize relations with neighboring Armenia. In recent months, Ankara and Yerevan have probed a rapprochement, but they have yet to make substantive progress in overcoming long-standing mutual hostility. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].
"If Turkey starts accession talks," adds Professor Gareth Winrow of Istanbul’s Bilgi University, "it will have to normalize relations with all its neighbors as a condition of future EU membership. Number one, this means opening all its borders."
Turkey’s has kept its frontier with Armenia closed since 1993. The closure is connected with a Turkish embargo designed to encourage Armenia’s withdrawal from Azerbaijani territory captured during the Nagorno-Karabkah conflict. [For additional information see the Eurasia Insight archive]. Turkish political leaders in mid-2004 mulled re-opening the border, but the idea met fierce resistance, both in Turkey and in Azerbaijan, and officials backed off the idea. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive].
Turkish observers say the government will have a difficult time finessing the border issue, adding that despite the EU pressure, the status quo may not change in the near future. "If Turkey just opened the border because of EU pressure, there might easily be a backlash," warned Mustafa Sahin of the Ankara-based Eurasian think tank, AVSAM. "Azerbaijan is a very popular cause in Turkey. Also, Armenia still has territorial claims on Turkey that would have to be solved."
Turkish territorial concerns stem from Armenia’s refusal to recognize the Kars Treaty of 1921, which set the frontiers between the two states. Armenia claims there is no need for such recognition, as acceptance of the existing borders was implicit when both countries joined the Organization of Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). Turkey, however, continues to seek a specific guarantee of Armenian recognition for the existing border.
Armenian President Robert Kocharian in late 2004 appealed to the EU to place the opening of the frontier among the pre-conditions for Turkey’s EU membership. "It is unacceptable for a country that is to have membership talks with the EU to keep its border closed with another country that is already in the neighborhood policy of Europe," Kocharian said.
The Armenian leader was referring to the EU Neighborhood Policy (EUNP), which was formulated to provide a framework for states bordering on the EU, such as Moldova and Ukraine. "The EUNP is designed to give support and dialogue to those countries that have no prospect of joining for now," adds Winrow. "At first, Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan were excluded from the EUNP, but after the Rose Revolution in Georgia, the EU changed its mind and allowed them in." [For additional information see the Eurasia Insight archive].
If Turkey and Armenia can eventually settle their differences, some observers believe pressure could increase on the Baku and Yerevan to reach a Artsax settlement. Others, however, are guarded about the possibilities. "Accession talks won’t have any direct effect on the Armenian issue," suggested Ferai Tinc, a political analyst for the Hurriyet daily. "We’ve seen many times before these moves to sort out the border."
Nevertheless, Tinc and others say Turkey’s move towards EU membership cannot but have a positive impact on the Caucasus. "It will send a message to the region that will be good for the democratization process," says Tinc. "Turkey’s relations with the Caucasian states will be within a different framework – not as a big brother, but as a member of a community."
Sahin, the AVSAM think-tank expert, said that even though Armenia views Turkey with suspicion, a significant number of Armenians want to see Ankara’s accession effort succeed. "Armenia is a little split on the issue," Sahin said. "But even there, many argue that Turkey’s accession process will give Armenia greater leverage for change."
Meanwhile, others see Turkey’s European path as helping to widen EU influence with another regional big power, Russia. "Turkey can play a very important role here," says Winrow. "As can an organization such as the Black Sea Economic Cooperation (BSEC). Turkey can show its strategic importance to Europe and get better and closer regional relations through this."
Editor’s Note: Jon Gorvett is a freelance journalist based in Istanbul.
http://www.eurasiane...av010605a.shtml
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