385 replies to this topic

[Eurocentric]

Molotov cocktails where being thrown at them. Why shouldn't the police have protected themselves against violent hooligans? Many of the hurt officers are in hospital with bullet wounds.

LTP should be imprisoned for life along with others that incited this riot.

[Z'areh]

Molotov cocktails where being thrown at them. Why shouldn't the police have protected themselves against violent hooligans? Many of the hurt officers are in hospital with bullet wounds.

LTP should be imprisoned for life along with others that incited this riot.

CREDIBILITY CREDIBILITY CREDIBILITY

"Armenia’s National Security Service (NSS) acknowledged on Thursday that the two men detained in Yerevan’s Liberty Square the previous night for allegedly urging opposition supporters to resort to violence were its employees."

Even if demonstrators through molotov cocktails, the public will not buy the governments arguments. the use of the word "hooligans" is not only passé it most certainly stamps the government guilt, it is similar to well-known Israeli government accusations of "terrorists hiding among civilians" when innocent people are killed.

Presence of riot police almost always ignites violence, add to that government agitators hidden among the demonstrators is a guaranty for justification for a crackdown.

The public perception will not be deterred by such justification and condemn the authorities for this. It might even get worse.

[Eurocentric]

CREDIBILITY CREDIBILITY CREDIBILITY

"Armenia’s National Security Service (NSS) acknowledged on Thursday that the two men detained in Yerevan’s Liberty Square the previous night for allegedly urging opposition supporters to resort to violence were its employees."

Even if demonstrators through molotov cocktails, the public will not buy the governments arguments. the use of the word "hooligans" is not only passé it most certainly stamps the government guilt, it is similar to well-known Israeli government accusations of "terrorists hiding among civilians" when innocent people are killed.

Presence of riot police almost always ignites violence, add to that government agitators hidden among the demonstrators is a guaranty for justification for a crackdown.

The public perception will not be deterred by such justification and condemn the authorities for this. It might even get worse.

Where is that snippet from?

Yes but how long would they have to let them cripple the city like that? They were there for days. When the cops showed up, sensible people would have left. It just happens to be that the masses there were all anban and angorts douchebags.

[Arpa]

CREDIBILITY CREDIBILITY CREDIBILITY

Why are we stopping there?
Let's go a step further and use one of our all time favorite word-
CONSPIRACY! CONSPIRACY!! CONSPIRACY!!!*
How about, "those were furkish provocateurs inciting the people to violence"??
*The Armenian word is գաղտնի համաձայնում= secret agreement, and the Latin word is from con=together and spire=to breathe/whisper.

[Z'areh]

I am in no way absolving the followers of LTP of any wrong doing, I am simply raising the soundness of the actions of the authorities. Yes in any capital of the world police would move in to disperse illegal demonstrators. My problem is the deaths that were caused, police and civilian. What the hell??? Sorry but I strongly believe it is up to the government to insure things do not degenerate to what we are seeing. They played right into the hands of Levon and his cronies.

the news snippet of above is from RFE/RL

www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2008/02/3E1DDCBC-7733-491B-9FD3-C134120D9633.asp

[Arpa]

I am in no way absolving the followers of LTP of any wrong doing, I am simply raising the soundness of the actions of the authorities. Yes in any capital of the world police would move in to disperse illegal demonstrators. My problem is the deaths that were caused, police and civilian. What the hell??? Sorry but I strongly believe it is up to the government to insure things do not degenerate to what we are seeing. They played right into the hands of Levon and his cronies.

the news snippet of above is from RFE/RL

www.armenialiberty.org/armeniareport/report/en/2008/02/3E1DDCBC-7733-491B-9FD3-C134120D9633.asp

Did you see that video where Dr. Samvel Harutiunian says that out of the 27 wounded they have recieved the majority are policemen?
Did the police burn those cars and throw those molotov (ironic!) cocktails?
I think LTP has overextended his welcome in Yerevan. How is TelAviv, or for that matter- Aleppo? Aleppines remember well those early days of Syrian independence when there were coup d'etat' s and assssinations twice every month.
Johannes can give us dates and names.
Maybe we need a dynasty of Assad's to smash a fezw heads and bring peace and prosperity to the country!
BTW. Why did Armenia of less than two million citizens have 9 candidates to the last minute when the US with over 300 million practically has 2, or a maximum of 3 candidates left? Are we to teach the world amen berne mi dzayn" cacophonic cacocracy/democracy"?
Why was I not the 10th candidate? Is it because I "have a life"? I only wish that those comedic buffoons of a candiate who only received negative votes, i.e stole votes from the front runners, would also "get a life", find another way of making a living. How about they dig ditches or fix potholes?!

Edited by Arpa, 02 March 2008 - 01:48 PM.

[MosJan]

hetaqrir e gites - mi qani shabat araj yes forumum mardkants xndrum eyivro bats forumum RR & SS masin vat baner chgren - irsk hima iyd nuyn mardiq dzen el chen hanum -

Kasharakerutyun@ hasel e amenabartser ketin - iyspisy kasharakerutyun Hayastan@ der Demirjyan Qochinyani oroq chi tesel
kasharq en vertsnum bolor@ - sksvats Mankapartezi Dayaknerits verchatsrats petutyan amenabartser andzinq
dramashorthutyun@ nuyna

iysinqn goyutyun uni orenqov sahmanvats arjeq - yev dran havelyal - ussutchi / bjishki / pahaki / directorii / vostikani / ......... koghmits sepakan yev ir sheferi hamar naxatesvats $$$ kasharq


sakan mez hima dzerq e talis vor SS darna / yev yerkir@ anpopx mna
serj@ mnalov himnakanum amen inch nuyn e mnalu, ogtvelov arritist um der cheyi karroghatsel mejteghist hanelu arden hanetsin, hima irenq en ( munq enq Mur Sarer@ )
Paylun kerppov RQ & SS karroghatsen irents miyatsnel yev ashxatel kusaktsutyuneri mets masin
sa lav er petq e lavn el asel
russastani & USa mijev lav Laraxaghatsy der en xaghum - sa el er lav
ashxaxqum inchqan $$$ ka vro kareli er berel Hayastan berum en - Lav en anum
bazmatov spyurqi kazmakerputyuner nerdrumner en katarum aveli hesht yev aveli vstahelov - ;av er brav irents
spyurqi anhatner nuynpes nerdrumner en katarum - lav en anum - shaterin ( qtsum en ) lav chen anum
yerkir@ kamats kamats tsaxum en russnerin - lav chen anum
inchpes LTP - ss & rq unen shoxqi tak kangnats mardiq / olegaxner, anarxistner, mauzeristner, orinakan yev anoren Gogher, maner xuliganner yve iylen ...................




lavn el ka vatn el ka bolorn el pit asvi

inchpes nayev LTP depqum - ka lav @ kar yev vat@ - kayin lav mardiq ir koxqin kangnats - kan nayev voch laver
arel e lav baner - arel e kam tuyl e tvel urishner@ anen vat baner
yerb urish vatutyun kam s@rikayutyun e arel chi brnel akanj@ qashi


ka nayev mek urish ban - inch el anenq mek e vochinch el chenq karrogh poxel - mez ov e lselu - mer asats@ ov e bani tegh dnelu ??


zarmanalin iyn e vor LTP + SS + RQ + VS + shat yev shat urish rekavarner + shat yev shat zinvorner Azatagretsin Artsax@ - iskj iysor atori k@riv en anum - yerkir @ bajanum - azg@ bajanum - hima inch mi hat el HAyastan sarqenq LTP hamar ?? ha de menq sovor enq yerku yekeghetsy - yerku Hovvapet, yerku yev kam aveli tesak HAyer - inch k@lini vor togh lini

[Aray]

What about the masses of people who have taken to the streets in support of LTP? Should they round up a third of the population and exterminate them as well?

I’m wondering where is the third of the population number is coming from? Official number backed by OSCE was 21.5%. What ever the percentage of that 21.5% are the criminals that were on the streets doing illegal protests and violence should be brought to justice as well.

[MosJan]

I'm wondering where is the third of the population number is coming from? Official number backed by OSCE was 21.5%. What ever the percentage of that 21.5% are the criminals that were on the streets doing illegal protests and violence should be brought to justice as well.

lets be nice


criminals - who are this criminals - people who have guts to stand up and protest, or people who just have had enough are called criminals now ?

my many of our brothers and sisters are protesting
many more have taking $$$ to vote for SS - you tell me who the criminals is a person who is standing up for it country or the one that's taking bribes and or offering them

this reminds me of CCCP calling our Fedayis a Separatist hooligans in 1990's

lets be nice, after all no one can tell if people burning cars and looting the stores was LTP supporters
do LTP supporters have horns or are numbered on their forehead ??

[Aray]

Having guts doesn’t necessarily mean not be a criminal. Most of the idiocy in the world done by people with guts.

When should we stop this nonsense? When are we going to learn to loose with dignity? Any body that expected elections in Armenia to be equal to Western standards delusional or does have a clue of internals in the republic. I would be the first to tell that OSCE and other Western so called “democratic” institutions had no business to monitor elections in Armenia, but they did. And they have expressed that elections in Armenia were mostly in line with international commitments. While it is in Western interests to destabilize Armenia and have ‘orange revolution’ (e.g. have ruler like Levon that will shift from Russia to the West), against all the odds in the world, West expressed the positive outcome of the election. What else do we need?

Yea, and let’s be nice and move on. Let’s accept the fact that SS is the president, and all that violence on the streets will not change a thing.

[Em]

I’m wondering where is the third of the population number is coming from? Official number backed by OSCE was 21.5%. What ever the percentage of that 21.5% are the criminals that were on the streets doing illegal protests and violence should be brought to justice as well.

OK, we will play with your numbers. Even so, the saying goes.."krivi vaxt meghr chen bazanum". In their opinions the violence is warranted. Nuynisk necessary to demand attention. If there is any other way to stand up against the current regime, please do buy a ticket to Armenia and go enlighten the masses.

[Aray]

OK, we will play with your numbers.

Who are we? Are you one of those 'tsuyts ev talan anokh' on the street of Yerevan?

Even so, the saying goes.."krivi vaxt meghr chen bazanum". In their opinions the violence is warranted. Nuynisk necessary to demand attention.

Well, if you demand attention by violence and think it is necessary, then don’t expect that authorities should play 'tun-tunik' with you. I will support authorities to use any kind of force against people of this mentality.

If there is any other way to stand up against the current regime, please do buy a ticket to Armenia and go enlighten the masses.

How you know where I am, and who are you to tell me where to go and what to do. And where have I indicated my desire to enlighten the masses against the current regime? Strange, really strange

[Aray]

Yeah...and i suppose that you're proper Armenian is much better than Kocharyan's. Please...stop with the BS western propoganda about democracy and liberalism...it's getting old now days. Let the real liberalism and democracy prevail in the west first, before you even speak about democracy in Armenia.

Bravo @nker

[alpha]

We have a pretty hostile group of people here. Being a long time member of this forum I see a lot of things have changed around here.

Let me answer some of the questions raised after my first post.

1. First of all I don’t intend to normalize relations with Turkey. The democratically elected president of the Republic of Armenia through means of constructive dialogue should lay the foundation of normalization. If England and France were able to normalize their relations after hundreds of years of hostility than I think there is a hope for Armenians and Turks too.

2. Liberalism - I might have a different worldview than some of the participants in this forum. I believe in liberal ideals. The ones that helped Europe heal its wounds after the WW II. While it’s true that things can not happen overnight, however without taking steps toward the final destination, without having the vision, one can never get anything done. Have you asked yourselves what’s your vision of Armenia? Armenia 2020 was an interesting project that gave a vision to possible outcomes.

[Aaron]

My opinion, not for LTP but for the country's stability, new elections should be called in the next 6-8 months ... I have no doubt LTP would lose!

Alpha, as for HHsh's liberal-democratic ideas, well I always thought they made sense on the very long run, they are in essence good ... but very idealistic and are out of touch with today's realities in the caucasus!

My point of view on what you said can be read in the following posts: 228934 and 229066

A.

[MosJan]

Shame, shame on these authorities!!! Shame on people who have tainted their hands with the blood of innocent people. Butchering its own people is analogous to treason. I am not an ardent supporter of LTP, however I agree with his liberal-democratic ideas. I am not an Armenian citizen, so I don't have a moral right to support anyone, all I can do is agree or disagree. I agree that the only way Armenia can develop into a modern democracy is through solving the Artsax problem. I agree that normalization of relations with all neighboring countries; yes all of them, including Azerbaijan, is imperative for normal development of the Republic of Armenia. Armenia ought to become a beacon of democracy and liberal ideas in the region. It has the potential to build a European country, based on the ideals of Voltaire and Jean Jack Rousso. The present situation has to change. The often used word, stabilitiy, should be used in positive content. Stability of what? Authoritarianism. The current regime resembles the autocratic middle-eastern regimes, Hosni Mubarak's Egypt, or Bashar Assad's Syria, just to name a few. Moral degradation has engulfed all aspects of the society. It's like a parasitic disease that's eating the country from within. Whoever can not be bought (like Arthur Baghdasarian), or controlled (like Artashes Geghamyan) is severely persecuted. Is this the type of Armenia you have dreamed of in 1991? Where the president is a semi-educated former communist mid-level bureaucrat? I am embarrassed time and time again when Mr. Kocharyan gives "speeches" in Armenian. His advisors should have recommended him long time ago to take Armenia courses. I don't blame him for not being able to converse in proper Armenian. In Artsax there were not many Armenian schools and the level of education was not at very high levels. Do you see his long time protégé, the so called black cardinal of Armenian politics as the third president of the republic? If you can envision that than I take my hat off to you, you must be a visionary that I am not.

Alpha jan Bari tesanq

[MosJan]

Having guts doesn't necessarily mean not be a criminal. Most of the idiocy in the world done by people with guts.

When should we stop this nonsense? When are we going to learn to loose with dignity? Any body that expected elections in Armenia to be equal to Western standards delusional or does have a clue of internals in the republic. I would be the first to tell that OSCE and other Western so called "democratic" institutions had no business to monitor elections in Armenia, but they did. And they have expressed that elections in Armenia were mostly in line with international commitments. While it is in Western interests to destabilize Armenia and have 'orange revolution' (e.g. have ruler like Levon that will shift from Russia to the West), against all the odds in the world, West expressed the positive outcome of the election. What else do we need?

Yea, and let's be nice and move on. Let's accept the fact that SS is the president, and all that violence on the streets will not change a thing.

du hashiv talis es qo xosqerin ???

yete im yexpiyr@ iyd tsutsararnerits mekn er urmen na el er HANTSAGORTS ??
Zinvori Miyr @ ov 2 zavak er korstrel Artsaxum - na el er hantsagorts
Zinvor@ ov 3 tary k@rvel er Hayreniqi hamar kortsrel dzerq@ - na el er hanstagorts
Bolor@ hantsagorts en tsutsararneri mej

du qez hashiv talis es te inch es durs talis / chap tur bernit

[Twilight Bark]

A few points:

* Looking to Ter-Petrossian as a representative of "liberal" ideals is misguided at best, and is probably just dim-witted. Supporting passionately one kleptocrat over another is moronic, and apparently an awful lot of people in the homeland are just that. The current thugs in power at least leave open the possibility of a slow, painful evolution over time towards something sensible and beyond. In the best of worlds, Ter-Petrossian's "vision" is to turn Armenia to the equivalent of Lesotho at the time of apartheid South Africa: A kind of harmless ghetto. More probably, though, just a different set of thieves would (re)take their turn, and as a "bonus" Western Armenians would re-assume their status as "foreigners" and "aliens".

* Whenever someone says "European" this, "European" that in "improving" Armenia, I immediately discount what they have to say to the B.S. category, unless a true gem of a thought is contained in there somewhere, which it never does. It takes too long to explain why. Just learn and think. And unlearn a lot too. It takes a while.

* The political culture is so hopeless that the only reasonable thing a person with resources can do is to do his/her part in laying down the foundations of an educated, well-trained, and intellectually hyperactive population and institutions. In other words, the salvation will come from the ground up.

* Unfortunately, when it comes to Armenians, money and vision repel each other. Apparently, the Armenian context with its complicated history and emotionally confusing elements is too complex to allow someone to understand it well enough and accumulate enough wealth to do something about it in one lifetime. Either that, or we are just not that bright.

Best wishes to all,
TB
P.S. In case you are confused about the last point: Yes, I do think it takes a lot of money coupled with the right vision to correct the current course. At this point in our evolution, only cold, hard cash, and lots of it, will be listened to, and get the attention and respect necessary for getting things done. And barring divine intervention, it can only come from an "outside" Armenian.

Edited by Twilight Bark, 03 March 2008 - 02:29 PM.

[vava]

A few points:

* Supporting passionately one kleptocrat over another is moronic, and apparently an awful lot of people in the homeland are just that. The current thugs in power at least leave open the possibility of a slow, painful evolution over time towards something sensible and beyond.

Firstly, I had never heard the term "kleptocrat" and it's natural extension, "kleptocracy" which I think is an appropriate descriptor for RA in it's current state. The question I have with regards to the eventual improvement as you describe above is "what will be left?". When the oligarchs are finished their plundering, what will remain, and will there be enough to build a nation?

Might one be tempted to think that at least some elements of the protest/opposition movement are simply voicing their impatience and/objection at continually being stolen from?

* The political culture is so hopeless that the only reasonable thing a person with resources can do is to do his/her part in laying down the foundations of an educated, well-trained, and intellectually hyperactive population and institutions. In other words, the salvation will come from the ground up.

This is a hopeful, and albeit a longterm (read: slow) outlook, nevertheless does make sense. But again, the pessimist in me wonders if nation will be able to withstand the continuing strains until such institutions are able to come into their own - particularly when it involves resisting not only the current hegemony, but also the political opposition.

Best wishes to all,
TB

Nice to see you back btw.

[Twilight Bark]

Sorry for butting in, even though I am not a supporter of any candidate, even in theory. As far as I know, they are either thugs, delusional mediocrities, or at best uninspiring. Your questions imply a binary and rather simplistic view of things. If you object to an LTP comeback you must be a Sarkisian supporter. If you dislike LTP's brand of "liberalism" (assuming he actually means it) you must be a nasty (it is implied) and outdated chauvinist (I object to the catch-all use of the term "nationalism" to mean chauvinism or jingoism or xenophobia). As far as nationalism and "what it led to in 1920", your implication is dead wrong. Armenians suffered not from an excess of nationalism but from a lack of it. Armenians at the beginning of the 20th century were not nationalistic enough. Put another way, there weren't enough nationalists among Armenians. That's true for both sides of the Ottoman-Russian border. To add to your quote, only European "Nationalism took a severe blow after the WW II". Europeans slaughtered each other and others on the planet on an industrial scale with little remorse for centuries both before and after their supposed "invention" of "european nationalism". They only came to their senses after an unprecedented orgy of killing and near-total destruction. And now they (or their surrogates) are in a position to lecture Armenians about Armenian nationalism? Huh!

Armenians should surely appreciate and learn about the intellectual accomplishments of western science, arts, and philosophy. They should, in fact, be better at these activities than the "west" itself. But to buy western self-delusion wholesale would be a big mistake. European style nationalism (which is closer to chauvinism than a true nationalism) is not the only way to develop a national ideology. Being lectured by europeans on nationalism is akin to a sexually active, healthy man being lectured by a supposedly reformed rapist-murderer on the benefits of voluntary castration.

To all supporters of Serje Sarkissian and Republican Party I have a few questions. Before you express your support to a candidate try to convince the opposition (i.e. me and like-minded people) by answering to the following questions:

1. Do you believe in nationalistic ideals set forth by Njdeh in the beginning of 20th century, which serve as the guiding force behind the ideas of the Republican Party? If you do, then don’t you think that most if it is outdated with current developments in the world? Nationalism took a severe blow after the WW II.

2. How can you believe a guy who has changed 3 parties since 1988 (Communist, HHSh, and Republican). Don’t you think that if opportunity comes he will desert the Republic for which it stands?

3. What’s your vision of Armenia and the model of development it should pursue? I see a lot of people here reject liberalism, but I don’t see the alternatives to it. To me the alternatives are isolationism and nationalism (we saw what it led to in 1920). Please educate.

4. Do you think a person who was in charge of the security services in 1999 has a moral right to serve as the president of the Republic, when the agency he ruled made fatal blows to the statehood of Armenia by failing to protect the National Assembly?