85 replies to this topic

[raffiaharonian]

I am interested to know the basic principles that deferentiate the GOD of each relegious group.

Is the God of Christians the same God as the one of the Muslims and the JEws?

Can we accept the notion that He is the same and unique devinity?
If so, what are the implications of this belief?

Dante has his own opinion on the matter, but what is your belief on the subject?

Is anybody knowledgable enough to summarise the ideas of Dante on this subject? (my knowledge is limited and maybe inadequate.)

[ThornyRose]

Muslims claim it is the same god. In fact, you will see that Arab Christians refer to God as Allah, and this predates Islam, I think. (One of the greatest "political" mistakes of one atheist site put up by a Turk was claiming that the word Muslims used for their god was but a grammatical inflection of "ilah," used for gods other than "the One True God" [like "god" with a small letter], unless he wanted to sling a shot at Arab Christians as well.)
But I suppose Christians don't think the Muslims worship the same god, in the same way that Jews probably disregard both, for Muslims claim that the Christians have deviated, strayed, etc., from the truth, while Christians probably say the same of the Jews.
Muslims accept the bases of all the previous books, and they recognize all the prophets. The disciples and saints, obviously, they do not.
And of course you probably also know that Muslims claim that "Son of God" was meant to be used as "prophet" anyway and the Christians misunderstood Jesus or something.
How much of your admittedly inadequate knowledge of what Dante says can you relate to us? I am not familiar at all with what he said on the subject.

[Anshnork]

In fact, the phrase "Son of God" was used readily in the time of Jesus. It was often used by Jews to address other Jewish males, since every Jewish man was considered to be a son of God. It did not apply to ONE person exclusively. Additionally, it was also used as a way of showing respect. Thus, wouldn't Jesus' followers naturally call him "Son of God" to show their love and respect for their leader, and not to assert that he was THE SON OF GOD? And Jesus himself never actually claimed he was the son of God. So, could the Christian belief that Jesus IS the SON, actually be based on a complete misunderstanding of an early Jewish tradition? IS JESUS GOD?

[khodja]

Azat,

Millions of the followers of Jesus were exterminated solely for expressing what you have expressed in this forum.

[khodja]

Last message was for Anshnork

[dragon]

Anshnork,

Jesus is not God, He is son of God.

''Kanzi Hayru megu chi tader, haba amen tadasdan Vortiyin dvav. vorbeszi amenku badven Vortin, inchbes hayru gu badven: An vor Vortin chi badver, zaniga ghrgogh Hayru chi badver: Jshmarid, jshmarid gsem tsezi, te An vor im khosks mdig gneh yev gu havada anor vor zis ghrgets, havidenagan gyank ouni ou tadabardutian dag chiynar, haba mahvne tebi gyank antsadz ee'': (Hov: 5: 22-24)

'' Vasnzi inchbes Hayru ir antsin mech gyank ouni, aynbes al Vortiyin dvav, vor ir antsin mech gyank ounena, yev tadasdan unelou ishkhanoutiun al dvav anor, kanzi aniga Vorti marto ee'': (nouyn, 26-27)

[ThornyRose]

Well, see below, and I will still think that this "son of God" business is unresolved. What startles one is that Muslims also claim that pork is prohibited to Christians as well - that, like the Jews before them, Christians were told they couldn't eat pork, but Christians somehow strayed and started eating it again, while Muslims set it straight or something. I have seen a tapestry in the Vatican Museum depicting the Last Supper (very, very old), with a pig small enough to fit his plate in front of Christ. Was that li'l pig put there deliberately or what, and why?
Either way, Muslims also fail to come to the conclusion that eating pork shouldn't be a problem since nowadays the supervision of vets is a requirement and they are free of diseases and what-not, although they also claim that their religion tells them to "conform and change according to the changing times," a line often used by Turkish Muslim "moderates" to claim that the head-scarf and what-not rules for women (a very sensitive issue) are out of date and that we shouldn't drag them around with us longer than is their due, because somehow men a few centuries ago were supposed to be less capable of controlling themselves in the wake of their sexual urges than now - beats me.

[dragon]

Jesus is Son of GOD

''Deru zis sdeghdzets ir kordzu usgselou aden,
Yergiru sdeghdzele aratch,
Ir kordzin sgizpu,
Tarer aratch shinvetsa:
Sgizpen, yergiru gazmvelen aratch:
Antuntneru chghadz,
Arad chureroun aghpiurneru cheghadz yes dznadz eyi:
Lerneru chdeghavorvadz,
Plourneren aratch yes dznadz eyi:
Dagavin yergirn ou tashderu
Yev ashkharhis hogheru chsdedzgdzvadz,
Yerp yerginkneru gu badrasder
Ou antuntneroun yeresin vra
gamar gu tsker, yes hon eyi:
Yerp veri amberu goujovtsner
Yev antuntneroun aghpiurneru gu hasdader,
Yerp dzovoun ganon gu tner,
Vorbeszi chureru ir hramanen turs chellen
Ou yerp yergri himeru gu tsker,
Ayn aden yes anor kov jardarabed eyi
Yev amen or ANOR zvarjoutiunn eyi
Ou mishd anor artchev gurakhanayi:
Yes ashkharhi mech ou pnageli yergri vra gurakhanayi
Ou im zvarjoutiunus martots vortineroun hed er'' (Aragats 8: 22-34)

[MJ]

The identity of Jesus is the subject of historically most uncompromising debates in Christianity. Clearly, while most of the Christians currently agree on it, this issue has been the source of major division.

The Holly Trinity is basically the answer to this issue, as much as one may find clarity in it. Basically, the message of Holly Trinity is that The Father, The Son and The Holly Spirit/Ghost are the same identity, or just different persona/masksof the same identity.

Btw, by some stupid historical mistake, Armenians have been labeled as monophizits - i.e. recognizing only one identity of Jesus. It couldn't be further from the truth.

Jesus himself says, “I am the door of God,” meaning that one can enter into Gods Kingdom only through Jesus.

[ThornyRose]

I'm trying to remember the date of the tapestry, but can't. Shucks! Not even the century or whatever... Maybe I SHOULD go one last time to check... LOL...
So, MJ, what is there to be said about this pork-eating business? I don't think it is that important, but the way the Muslim clergy can think they can poke their nose in like this leaves one no choice but to tell them off, IMO.

[khodja]

In another translation Jesus stated "I am the way" to God. It is the interpretation of this that has been the issue for 2000 years. The established churches have chosen to exterminate those whose interpretation deviates from their own.

[MJ]

I have heard from many Muslims that the prohibition of eating pork in Islam has been imposed only due to health reasons. Additionally, the Old testament provides another list of animals/birds wish are "not clean" for consumption purposes.

[ThornyRose]

So Christians have carte blanche when it comes to pork? I'm curious, what other animals/birds are deemed unclean by the Old Testament? Crustaceans and the like come to mind - but anything with scales is OK or something...

[MJ]

I am not aware of problems with pork for Christians. As to the other animals, I think eating dogs or cats, and the like is prohibited. From the list of the birds I recall only swallow. Don't have the time to check it today.

[khodja]

Why discuss the silly prohibitions that have been placed upon believers? Why not discuss the larger theological issues that confront us?

How many ways can you split a pea?

[ThornyRose]

Swallows? Poor little critters, <sob!sob!>...

-----------------------------------------
More on Muslims patronizing Christians: I remember their beliefs about what happened to Christ after he was crucified being very different from Christians' - and, again, they claimed the Christians knew it all wrong. (I've never visited any answering-islam-type sites, so I don't know what Christian fundamentalists [or whoever] say about Muslims - they probably aren't disrespectful, though.) I can't quite remember now - maybe I can ask at home ("Why the sudden interest, Filiz?" asks aunt, with a raised eye-brow.)

[MJ]

My remark meant that it is prohibited by the Old Testiment to eat swallows.

[gamavor]

"Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food."

All other prohibitions are from the Satan.

P.S. Raffi, I still wonder who was this "titan of the thought" who included Dante's "Hell" into high schools curriculums. For a 16 years old school boys and girls it is a bit too much. I remember writing an essay on the subject in my school years. If I have time I will contribute to this topic.
Dante’s approach is rather metaphysical and non-religious, employing religious characteristics to make his point more understandable. Actually his work, (I’m not aware of anything else besides “Hell” is rather socio-political-psychological than theological.

[MJ]

Having control doesn't mean eating them, right?

Additionally, I do distinctly remember a whole list of animals qualified as "unclean" for consumption purposes in the Old Testament. Now, who has writtent the Old Testament may be a subject of wider discussions.

[gamavor]

Control, if understood as disposition or something that you have possession over or the ability to exercise your will might be interpreted as the power to consume them. In some other translations of the Bible the right to "eat" them is explained more explicitly. That of course doesn't mean that you are expected to do that, or obliged in any way to do it.