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#1 Gayane

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Posted 16 April 2001 - 12:36 PM

Sitting around the dinner table over Easter were the many women in my family: my grandmother the homemaker, my mother the doctor, myself, and my kid sister the overachiever, among others. As I considered each of our lives, I noticed a pattern all too common in many families, both Armenian and non Armenian -- the slow upward mobility of the women. From my third-grade educated grandmother to my overachiever kid sister who is poised to become an exceptional careerwoman -- that's what I call progress!

Yet progress at what cost? (as some would ask) Do women jeopardize the overall well being of their family and their children when they choose to have a career? What effect does a woman's committment to her career have on the children? Is there an effect? Is it negative? How severe? Is there a stigma attached to the mother who's careerminded and ambitious? How much of a stigma? What about society's perceptions of working mothers? How about the men? Do the husbands of working moms encounter challenges their fathers could not have fathomed? How does the husband's view of his career oriented wife impact their marital relationship? What is the husband's take on his wife's committment to her job? How does this play out in Armenian families? How prepared are Armenian women to juggle both work and home? How prepared are Armenian men to have successful wives? How accepting is our culture of overly ambitious, overly successful women? (I generalize when asking these questions, as avoiding generalization becomes difficult while dealing with such topics)

Views? (pick any or all of the issues I've raised)

#2 shiner

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Posted 16 April 2001 - 02:00 PM

I don't think women jeopardize the overall well being of their family when they choose to have a career. Jeopardizing the well being of their family often depends on the woman. Women that harm the well being of their family do so anyway, with or without a career. In addition, women not working (not having a career) is a mentality of the past. In today's world a woman not working is something that depends on the family's financial situation. I think that in the 21st century women are encouraged to pursue careers and higher levels of education as much as men (or at least almost as much as men).

As far as Armenian men being prepared to have successful wives depends partly on where those men grew up. In the 21st century, most Armenian men who grew up in western societies are pretty well prepared to have "successful" wives. I can't speak for other countries or other times.

I think the concept of an overly successful, ambitious woman is becoming more accepted in Armenian society. Based on what I have seen, parents encourage and want their daughters to be successful, educated, etc. as much as their sons.

The husbands of working moms might encounter some challenges their fathers might have not imagined, but they are able to surpass them because they live in a different world than their fathers did.

Of course, as Gayane mentioned, all we can do is generalize. There are all types of situations out there.

#3 Boghos

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Posted 16 April 2001 - 02:31 PM

Are Armenian men ready to deal with succesful carrer women ? Well, it depends. Here, in Brazil, thatīs a fact. And in the cases it has happened it has not affected their role as mothers, sisters, daughters, etc.

This is a problem I want to have.

#4 MJ

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Posted 16 April 2001 - 02:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Gayane:
Do women jeopardize the overall well being of their family and their children when they choose to have a career? What effect does a woman's committment to her career have on the children? Is there an effect? Is it negative? How severe?


It is very likely, however not necessary. It may vary. In general, the effect is negative, but in good families it may be mitigated.

The same concerns to career oriented dads. Kids need to spend time with their fathers, too. Frequently, the fathers' unavailability - whether due to his career or "nardi," also has huge negative effects. This is also a Women's Issue, in my view. Especially, if the father is not available due to "nardi."

This is not an Armenian issue, clearly. As always, "it is difficult to eat your cake, and have it." I don't know the answer. Both alternative lifestyles have their pros and cons. Each person should decide based on her/his values and circumstances.

#5 Pilafhead

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Posted 16 April 2001 - 10:28 PM

I agree with everyone above, especially what Martin said. Having been raised by a single working-mother and now, having a wife who has been slowly phasing out work to be with our son, I've lived both sides of this issue.

One parent needs to be home when the kids get home from school (unfortunately, this is a tremendous luxury in this day and age). Preferably the mother. I know, I know, you're going to wonder, "Why the mother?" There's a nuturing quality in mothers that even the most caring and loving fathers cannot provide. Little kids really need as much contact as possible with their mothers.

Plus, if the husband stays at home and the wife is the bread winner, I guarantee problems will arise. The traditional roles are just too topsy-turvy for it to be a lasting stable household. Societal norms are so strong that either internal or external influences will make one or both spouses unhappy and possibly bitter towards the other.

My recommendation to all women: get a good education and job prior to marriage so that you never feel overly dependant upon anyone. A confident woman makes a good wife and mother. When your children are little, work part-time in your field. It'll be best for your kids. This may sound neanderthal, but I cannot understand any mother that would put career above children. If you do not have kids, you may not understand this. I don't put my career first, but someone's got to work full-time. Better me than my wife when it comes to our son.

BTW, our relative salaries is why my wife is phasing out work, so ours was an easy decision. No slings and arrows please .

#6 Artur

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 01:54 AM

Well, i personally think that women should put their effort in education, carrear. However, i think if family can afford then, there is no need for a woman to work. And don't forget that the first duty and the first job of a woman is to be a mother, and nothing can be more important than the kids. If some women don't think this way, then she shouldn't be a mother.
And if God permits my family to be in good financial condition, there will be no discussions about my wife working.

Artur

#7 DoC

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 09:25 AM

Artur,
Just out of curiosity, how old are ya?

#8 Pilafhead

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 12:55 PM

He's 20-something going on 70-something.

#9 Kazza

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 01:53 PM

Just an extra thing - Gayanne that dad in the tread when you are talking about your day? He is acting like a real jerk! The sad thing is, he just doesnt know any better. Perhaps he thinks he's doing the right thing for his family, but the mum and son will end just being the victims of it all because he is controlling their actions. Is there not any way that you can get in touch with that mum at all? She can come to you if you enclosed tha addresses and everything in the information you gave her.

So many women do it all. Keep the house, have time for their mariage, work, and bring their kids up - I think it's absolutley amazing. Some mums are also single parents , and don't have a career but just need to take any job to put food on the table and I have a lot of admiration for these mums as well. (perhaps because they've never had the finances or opportunity for education, mabye married young ) One of the things here is a the point of the children being the proirity over the career. Perhaps the mum needs to take a job below her full capabilities, because she might not be able to manage a better career along side the extra commitments of the children, especially this is the case in single parents, male and female.

Where I live , there are a lot of single parents that need to be on benefits because they cant manage on a part time job. They can barely even manage on the benefit either but they are not allowed to work, so they end up doing a lot of part-time work on the side off the books, and hope that they are not caught.

What usually happens is when the children are older the mums go back to college or a career and try to start again that way,(I have a lot of people like that in my college) but often are tired out from the life of taking care of them, and drop out because they are not used to it, and jobs are less likely to take people on over 40 with little career experience. Times are tough!

I definatley adament that if you are going to decide to bring children in the world, that they are your priority. Career and other things need to come second while your child is a child and needs it's parents. If you cant handle giving your best to your child and fullfilling all nessesary responsibilites of being a parent, well..what are you doing having children in the first place. If I ever become a parent I will make sure I give them the best I possibly can!

I am not saying however that having a career will mean automatically that your children will come second. If you CAN manage them both then it's not a problem, what I mean is that if you cant, it's the career that has to go, not the care of the children.

I think also that having a carrer especially for mothers (If they are lucky enough to have extra emotional and finacial support from husband and family it makes it easier) will be emotionally and sycologically (Gayanne, I cant spell that!!!!I've tried and tried) positive for the kids to see the mum not only as the home maker but as a person acheiving other things outside that!!! I beleive it's very heathly and acheives reaspect for both parents if the responosbilites of home maker and bread winner are shared out. It also teaches them positive examples of roles both sexes from a young age.

It's true - BOTH parents need to be there for the child. Too much emphasis on the "typical " family, being the man with the career, and the woamn doing all the caring. Has any one thought that the man might be sick of this role? That he might wish to contribute more towards the day-to day childcare and be there in the parenting? Obviously we have heard from the women's side too - that they toowant to remain in the role of the carer but wish for room for a career and a lofe outside too. These day the arrangement is changing. here are more "House Husbands" (some one at my work said he wanted to be a house husband because he thought it was an easy ride!!!) and career bread winner wives, but i think that is wrong too and some how both roles should be evened out.

I also have a question and I would like to end on this note. Despite everything that has been said, women say they want a career . But at the end of the day in the courts fighting for custody cases, their ultimate descision is with the female parent because "the child belongs with the mother" think that's absolute crap because the children might be worse off with the mum and they will end up going with her.

Artur is /or going onto 18, I think. I am going on to 23!

#10 Azat

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 01:59 PM

Artur,
I sure hope you do not believe the all things that you say.
Azat

#11 Kazza

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 02:37 PM

Mabye everyone doesnt beleive the things they say!

#12 Artur

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 04:52 PM

DoC, Azat, i don't understand your reaction. What the difference make how old i am. For generations none of women in my family worked. I don't know any woman of all my relatives that is working.

I trully don't understand your reactions. Moreover it seems that you don't understand my attitude or it is strange for you.

I'll explain, the duties of men and women in the famaly:

Woman: cleans, cooks, takes care of kids most of the time, makes sure that the table is prepaired etc.
Man: earns money (takes care of financial aspect), makes sure that the kids and a wife get the best out of life etc.

Does this sound weird to you or what? For me, it is just the typical, the most efficient way, that most of Armenians apply to.

And about women, as my sisters, i seriously reject any attitutes towards working or earning money in regard to my sisters.

Artur

#13 Azat

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 05:35 PM

Artur, I do know that in many parts of the world including in Armenia this is how many(if not majority) of families function. I do however think that this is changing in Armenia as well where the most man(and this is not a sign of good or bad fathers) can not afford to raise a family with a single income. I think that you would agree with me that your way of thinking is old fashioned.

The thing that I was surprised/questioned is why a young man like you feels that woman's role is in the house cleaning and all the chores related to the family.

My mother quit work when she had kids until we were 10-11 year old, but returned to work after that. I personally think that a woman should work. I do not believe in a family where it is the husband working alone. And this has noting to do with weather I can afford to earn enough money to keep a family or not. Even if I had 10 million dollars, I would still work, so why shouldn't my wife. I think working women are more independent and can make decisions on their own and I respect/expect that from women.

I think(and I could be wrong, you guys know I am wrong all the time) an educated woman who has a successful career is much more interesting to converse with than one who is home all day taking care of the house.

#14 Azat

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 05:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Artur:

...
And about women, as my sisters, i seriously reject any attitutes towards working or earning money in regard to my sisters.

Artur



what does she want to do? if she wants to work, she should. If she does not, than she should not. I don't think that you should have a say in what your sister chooses to do. I hope you respect her enough to allow her to do what she wants.

#15 Artur

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 06:25 PM

First of all, she respects me and she won't go against my word. Maybe for you it is strange, because in American society, girls go against the word of brothers and a father, surely not in mine! It is disgrace when girls do that. But that's not the point. If my sister wants to be a painter, fine! Musician, fine! Doctor, good. But nothing that goes for earning money, i don't want her to learn the dirty world of money. That's the reason. I hope you understand.

My sister is only 14, and she is very good piano player, and if she decides to be pianist, i will be more than happy. But it surely will be like a hobby and not a job.

#16 dragon

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 06:26 PM

Working moms gain more respect than the others. Kids are pride if their moms have respectful career in society. Husbands must appreciate the effort their wives do.

Man and woman must be able to balance their in and out life.

Dragon

#17 Artur

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 06:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Azat:
Artur, I do know that in many parts of the world including in Armenia this is how many(if not majority) of families function. I do however think that this is changing in Armenia as well where the most man(and this is not a sign of good or bad fathers) can not afford to raise a family with a single income. I think that you would agree with me that your way of thinking is old fashioned.

The thing that I was surprised/questioned is why a young man like you feels that woman's role is in the house cleaning and all the chores related to the family.

My mother quit work when she had kids until we were 10-11 year old, but returned to work after that. I personally think that a woman should work. I do not believe in a family where it is the husband working alone. And this has noting to do with weather I can afford to earn enough money to keep a family or not. Even if I had 10 million dollars, I would still work, so why shouldn't my wife. I think working women are more independent and can make decisions on their own and I respect/expect that from women.

I think(and I could be wrong, you guys know I am wrong all the time) an educated woman who has a successful career is much more interesting to converse with than one who is home all day taking care of the house.



I understand your point. And i said in the beggining if a family is in good financial condition i don't think that woman working is necessary, and there can be only one reason for woman working is financial problems in the family.
Moreover, about woman cleaning washing etc. Which course are you doing? If you are doing business, then you should know that separation of target, when one person is taking care of one aspect and the second is the other side, then they will achieve the target more efficient. Same in the family: Woman - house, Man - work. And nothing wrong or extreme with that.

And from some point of view it is an "old-fashioned" way, but i regard it all-time "modern-effecient"


AA

#18 dragon

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 06:53 PM

I think you are more than old fashion, Artur. The worse thing is when woman works just for money! God forbid!!! I'll never let my wife work for money! It is more than killing all the lovely thing in woman!

Woman must work only to keep their career and themselves alive in society. Money can never bring happiness to the family, where woman works just to bring some money.

Thank God, I'm still alive!

Dragon

#19 Azat

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 07:52 PM

Gayane, are there such things are "not working moms"? Isn't it the fact that moms are always working harder than dads, even if they are doing their work at home?

#20 dragon

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Posted 17 April 2001 - 07:56 PM

Dragon my love, you are always right!


Mrs. Dragon




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