69 replies to this topic

[Armen]

Israel's recent move is surely not emotional/moral. Was it based on moral values in case of France, Canada etc? How much of it was moral?
How much control do Armenians as victims and Armenia have over the recognition process? Could it sometimes work against us?

[Sasun]

Very interesting topic Armen. I think in case of France it was not only a moral question but had to do with internal politics, perhaps it had more to do with politics than morality. In case of Canada I am not sure but the moral reason surprisiningly seems to have been more decisive when recongnizing the genocide.
I don't think any recognition may work against Armenia's interests, it may create temporary inconveniences though.
We have lot of control I think, if Armenians don't pursue and keep reminding nobody will recognize.

[ED]

Armen interesting, I doubted if the move has anything to do with morality, on the contrary this move by Israel IMO is just the opposite, using AG as a wild card to gain Turkish attention, most resent comments by Turkish PM and Turkish criticism in general of treatment of Palestinians, this has become a habit already in US to threaten Turks with resolution on AG, most recent in 2003 just before the war.

[DominO]

Israel's recent move is surely not emotional/moral. Was it based on moral values in case of France, Canada etc? How much of it was moral?
How much control do Armenians as victims and Armenia have over the recognition process? Could it sometimes work against us?

First before trying to answer such a question, one must ask the question: "Is the information provided true?"

There is still no support for the information about the said Israeli move... under those circonstances and will refrain from commenting.

[Armen]

I don't think any recognition may work against Armenia's interests, it may create temporary inconveniences though.

Susun, what would happen if Iran recognized it? Wouldn't it comlicate e.g. the U.S. or Israelian recognition for some period?

[Armen]

Armen interesting, I doubted if the move has anything to do with morality, on the contrary this move by Israel IMO is just the opposite, using AG as a wild card to gain Turkish attention, most resent comments by Turkish PM and Turkish criticism in general of treatment of Palestinians, this has become a habit already in US to threaten Turks with resolution on AG, most recent in 2003 just before the war.

I agree Eduard. But I want to discuss it more broadly and analyse more cases. I will post some more info for this discussion.

[Sasun]

Susun, what would happen if Iran recognized it? Wouldn't it comlicate e.g. the U.S. or Israelian recognition for some period?

Maybe for some period, but probably not at all. Why would the US and Israel look at what Iran is doing? They would act according to their interests I think.

[Armen]

First before trying to answer such a question, one must ask the question: "Is the information provided true?"

There is still no support for the information about the said Israeli move... under those circonstances and will refrain from commenting. 

Domino, even if the information is not true, a leek in media is usually considered a move.

[Vigil]

They are going to use the AG to keep Turkey out of the EU and no I do not think it is a politcal move. If Turkey joins the EU and the AG is resolved then Turkey will also turn to the EU for any sort of compensation, so, before Turkey can join the EU it must resolve its problems with the Armenians and the Kurds.

Edited by Vigil, 31 August 2004 - 01:42 PM.

[Vigil]

Israels moves on the other hand are VERY political and I dearly hope Armenians do not fall victim to them by trusting them. Israel as we speak is looking for another geopolitcal alliance, but since everyone accept Turkey mistrust them they are trying to "rebuild" ties. This is when Armenains and Armenia have a leverage and if they were smart they would ignore Israel and isolate her along with Turkey. Both are in the frying pan and now are selling each other out for hand outs.

[Armen]

Vigil, can you talk about something other than Israel? Because I kind of start thinking that you're a Jew

[Vigil]

Vigil, can you talk about something other than Israel? Because I kind of start thinking that you're a Jew 

OH sorry I thought the topic was about how the AG issue is being used as a politcal tool?

[Armen]

OH sorry I thought the topic was about how the AG issue is being used as a politcal tool?

Vigil, common man. You write about it in your every post. I mean go post about something else for a couple of days. Sports, sex... Take it easy...

[Armen]

Maybe for some period, but probably not at all. Why would the US and Israel look at what Iran is doing? They would act according to their interests I think.

Because this move would mean than Iran is trying to undermine Turkey as a regionl power. They would move to counter that by helping Turkey. In a simple situation (with Iran not recognizing it) they could as well press Turkey.
However, these are all just speculations and geopolitical models.

[Vigil]

Vigil, common man. You write about it in your every post. I mean go post about something else for a couple of days. Sports, sex... Take it easy...

ArmenSarg, I just critisize Israel because at every corner they stick the holocaust in my face and sorry if it sounds repeative. Anyways, I have given up trying to convince the opposition. They have been sucked into the Jewish camp already, so, why bother.

Edited by Vigil, 04 September 2004 - 04:30 PM.

[gamavor]

Recognition of Armenian Genocide by Americans and Brits is futile cause. Asking the murderer to recognize the crime of another murderer is just ridiculous. The focus of the Armenian Diaspora should be Republic of Armenia. We need strong economy, strong professional and effective military under civilian control, working democratic institutions and judicial system , and strong social security system.

[Vigil]

Recognition of Armenian Genocide by Americans and Brits is futile cause. Asking the murderer to recognize the crime of another murderer is just ridiculous. The focus of the Armenian Diaspora should be Republic of Armenia. We need strong economy, strong professional and effective military under civilian control, working democratic institutions and judicial system , and strong social security system.

HAHA...Armenians wouldn't understand nationalism if it bit the min the ass what makes you think they give a rats ass about the Armenian military? The best tactic for Armenians is to escape to other countries and protest the ill treatment of Armenians. Furthermore, most Armenian think they are losers, so, don't even bother trying to convince them that they must strenghten Armenia because in their heads they have already lost.

[gamavor]

Vigil, I'm talking about the focus of Armenian Diaspora, not the citizens of Armenia. If you are such a patriot, pack your staff and move there. Armenia is free and independant state.

[Vigil]

Vigil, I'm talking about the focus of Armenian Diaspora, not the citizens of Armenia. If you are such a patriot, pack your staff and move there. Armenia is free and independant state.

Gamavor, when have I stated that that I am this hard core nationalistic? I am not "asgasar", but at the same time I am not a hippie as well. My point is that you have members here that still can not define a what a Armenian is and yet you want them to "fight for Armenia"? The entire Diaspora is a joke and lastly, what the hell would my family react if I seriously wanted to "move back"? The Armenian youth is constantly ridiculed for even thinking about moving back and furthermore, nowadays, they even laugh at them for thinking about buying property in Armenia as well. Face it, Armenians, as a people, are the anti-thesis of nationalism and can be conquered with a smile.

[Armenian Highlander]

No matter how one analyses it, the Diaspora is hopeless and emphasizing its temporary existence is counter productive to our homeland. Our sacred homeland still contains large numbers of truly patriotic Armenians. All our emphasis must be on our homeland. Yes, there are those who leave the country and, yes, there are those who bring shame to all Armenians. Nevertheless, such sociological problems are natural for impoverished nations and Armenia today is an impoverished nation.

However, we in the Diaspora with our gargantuan egos, profound self-hate and utter cowardice are in not position to complain and criticize natives of Armenia. Don't forget, it was essentially natives over there who beat the Turks to a bloody pulp - not us. Instead of criticizing the general population within our homeland, try going over there and living the way they have lived for decades and see how patriotic and ethical you would be. Its always easy speaking from the warm comforts of your manicured neighborhoods.

As for me: I see Diasporan Armenian life as a pointless state of existence. All self-respecting Armenians need to plan for an eventual return to the homeland, even if this means just spending your summers there. Instead of wasting your money vegetating within places like the Bahamas and/or Hawaii go and at least support the tourist industry of your beloved land. I have been to our homeland several times, I have very good and patriotic friends there and, God willing, I am planning on moving my family there within the next five to ten years (once I am financially independent). As far as any one ridiculing me for my "tepi erkir" intentions - tkats unim bolorin vra.

And this is coming from a Beirutahai.