81 replies to this topic

[khodja]

Ali,

Did anyone here realize that love kills, but hate perpetuates a minority population? Here in America there are many Turks who have married Northern European descended Americans. Many Turks have converted to Christianity. Thus, in a few generations they will disappear.

Despite the fact that many Armenians will disagree with the DNA studies until their death-bed, many Armenian Jews assimilated into the Armenian genepool. The original Armenian Church was very Judaic in belief and liturgical practices. Books have been written on how Judaic were Armenian liturgical practices and church music. The Byzantines constantly accused the Armenians of Judaizing Christianity. In this accepting Armenian atmosphere, Jews disappeared through assimilation.

Had it not been for the earlier massacres of Armenians and the Genocide, Armenians in Turkey would have eventually disappeared. If Turkey ever became a truly democratic nation, the Armenans would have eventually disappeared through assimilation. Does anyone realize that the Azeris were once called Albanians and were predominantly Christian? So the Ittihadists gave the premise of the perpetuation of the Armenians a big shot in the arm. Nothing works like the ultimate alienation displayed in Genocide to perpetuate a culture.

[sen_Vahan]

" Did anyone here realize that love kills, but hate perpetuates a minority population?"

obviously we do not, because we are merely gravediggers from the Ararat Valley.

" Here in America there are many Turks who have married Northern European descended Americans. Many Turks have converted to Christianity. Thus, in a few generations they will disappear."

So, what's your point?

" Despite the fact that many Armenians will disagree with the DNA studies until their death-bed, many Armenian Jews assimilated into the Armenian genepool. "

Good theory. Since its supporters have arguments like "DNA studies is the-state-of-the-art ... " or a similar crap, consequently one should count on that, the theory will have no future.

"The original Armenian Church was very Judaic in belief and liturgical practices."

Well, I would not like to address third class discussion about the Armenian church, but your generalization is irrelevant.

" Books have been written on how Judaic were Armenian liturgical practices and church music."

Oh, dearest, your "vast knowledge" of church music prevents you probably to listen to it.By the way, why did you decide to write about that in this topic?

"The Byzantines constantly accused the Armenians of Judaizing Christianity. In this accepting Armenian atmosphere, Jews disappeared through assimilation."

Compare the ortodox and armenian christianity and try to find differences. Emphasize the judaic origin of theology and liturgy. maybe after that you will correct yourself.

" Had it not been for the earlier massacres of Armenians and the Genocide, Armenians in Turkey would have eventually disappeared. If Turkey ever became a truly democratic nation, the Armenans would have eventually disappeared through assimilation."

How about the Armenians in Lebanon or Georgia?

[Twilight Bark]

[ March 11, 2002, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[khodja]

Sen_Vahan,

Are the Armenians really loved in Lebanon or Georgia? I have read that at times in Lebanon the Armenians are still considered alien and in Georgia the same. How much intermarriage is there?Intermarriage is the key to eventual assimilation.

As for the present differences between the Armenian and Orthodox churches, they are not as dssimilar today as they were in the early days of Christianity. The Byzantine Emperors saw to that. They eventually brought Armenian belief closer to their beliefs.

[Twilight Bark]

Let me try to summarize in one paragraph. "Nothing happened. Well, if something happened, it wasn't that big a deal. Well, if it was a big deal, we suffered even more. Well, even if they suffered more, they deserved it. Well, even if they didn't deserve it, they couldn't have suffered much because they hardly existed to begin with. Well, even if they existed, they didn't have an official existence. Well, even if they had an official existence, it doesn't count because they hadn't had a state for a long time. Besides, are they really a nation anyway? We doubt it. Even if they are, that was a mistake. Anyway, don't get us angry, or we will do it again; not that we did anything to begin with."

P.S. It was more than half a million.

[ March 11, 2002, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Twilight Bark ]

[Arpa]

Excellent points TB.
I have said it before and wil say it again.
Is it Genocide you want? WE will be so glad to oblige!
Don't provoke us. Don't extend you "nose" (neck) further than you can protect. Armenians seem to have done the "right" thing at the "wrong" time, even the Artsakh saga was one such, however when it reaches here, ther is no other way.
Remember the song Sardarapat; "Yerb chi mnoum yelq ou char...". I only wish we would learn to in act advance rather than react belatedly and from a position of weakness.
And yea! Was it 300,001 or 1,499,999?

[Twilight Bark]

They existed as a distinct, coherent entity for at least 3300 years in recorded history. We don't know how much more before then. However, if the Armenian words for lullaby and milk are common with Sumerian, an important part of their ancestors must have been in the region for ~5000 years or so, without knowing that they were Armenians

It is true that most Armenians would have a hard time justifying the move, if it involves being dropped in the middle of a dirt road and be left to tame the place with their personal means. However, things would change somewhat if the compensation is channeled into making the place acceptable for a reasonable existence. It would also help the local Turks and Kurds immensely. A win-win situation.

Recognition and repentance are to the Turkish people's benefit, not the Armenians. It is an important step on the way to an enlightened existence. Compensation is meaningless for the betterment of the Armenian culture and existence, if it is to go into personal bank accounts. To make hagarag happy I do think that "proven" claims should go to the legitimate heirs. But the much larger, general compensation would be meaningful only if it were channeled to the reconstruction of Armenian communities in Eastern Anatolia (and no big loss to Turkey since the money would stay in the country and be used for something nice for a change; and this is probably the only way Turkey can afford to pay monetary damages for the Genocide). Normalization of relations are beneficial to Armenians only if Turkey becomes an enlightened country. Otherwise it simply encourages Armenian dependence on a country that is deep down hostile. And if Turkey becomes enlightened, most of the "separate" points discussed here become irrelevant (i.e. merge into the greater issue of true reconciliation).
That is very nice of you to say. Then I assume you are also in favor of making the necessary changes in the philosophy and structure of the Turkish state. Strong local autonomy, only nominal presence of the "central government" and absolute cultural freedom are the necessary (but insufficient; lots of money is the missing ingredient) conditions for such repatriation. It is also the litmus test for the sincerity of the noble viewpoints declared.

Absolutely. The alternative is either repugnant or impractical (in many cases both).

In any event, all of this is pure fantasy. I fully expect the region to keep toiling in spiritual and material misery for the forseeable future, even though the way out is in principle not so complicated, except for the inexhaustible supply of stupidity generated by chauvinism.

[khodja]

Twilight Bark,

Although I would not move to Turkey, I would have no problem with maintaining the endeavors of my great-grandfather and grandfather there for the benefit of all peoples of the region. My great-grandfather had set up eating places where all the poor of the region, Turks, Assyrians, Armenians could get a free meal. Most of the acreage he had in production of various foods is now barren. Why the Turks have allowed this to happen is anybody's guess. With some form of restitution, if the political and social climate of Turkey changed, I could even maintain a residence in Istambul.

But from what I see the Turkish authorities really do not want Armenians there. They often do not even allow established churches to make necessary repairs.

[Twilight Bark]

They don't want them here, and they don't want them there. They don't want them anywhere. Maybe they should all read "Green Eggs and Ham" .

[aurguplu]

hi

"love kills, but hate perpetuates a minority population".

i beg to differ. sibel (my wife-to-be) is an orthodox christian (not religious, though), and i happen to be a sunni muslim (not religious, though), and no-one is trying to assimilate the other.

i wonder what would happen if i got assimilated into the christian community inside turkey, with all my aristocratic turkish background and strong turkish identity (i do have a strongly turkish identity, believe it or not, just it is not a barrier between me and the rest of the world)? curious.

cheers,

[aurguplu]

yepp this is more or less the turkish position, and of course the turks have to be reminded of three of their own proverbs: "you cannot smear the sun with mud", "the candle of the liar burns until night sets in", and "he who has an wound, let him itch".

i know it was more than half a million, i was just quoting the official stuff.

cheers,

[sen_Vahan]

"i know it was more than half a million, i was just quoting the official stuff."

Right. And you probably know that Armenians were in a minority according to the same official stuff. But indeed they were not. Good progress.

So then, Armenians were in majority in some vilayets by the 19th century, there was a massacre (with more that half million people killed), historical and religious monuments were mainly distroyed by the Government's order, the country(eastern vilayets) was "cleaned" (I mean no more Armenians). Moreover, what is perfect is that you recognise that those territories were Armenian although were taken from Byzantians. All right, then let me ask why the present Armenia does not have the chance to take back those some vilayets? I guess just because the official Turkey will not do that step - nobody would do. OK, and all that Turkish garbage in the literature about Armenia's history and Armenians in general does not make any sense.

Hagarag, there was always an influence of the Imperors on the Armenia in general, including the church. But those little differencies in theology beginning 5 or 6th century still remain. Monophysits (I am not sure it is the right name in English literature) - Armenians, Kopts, Ethyopians, had and have some theological differencies comparing with the Orthodoxy, but these are not judaic.
Relations with Georgians after Soviet's collapse got worse. But do not forget that even before the revolution in Russia Tiflis was one of the biggest Armenian cultural centers. And there were some inter-national merrages. Talking to ARmenians from Lebanon I do not hear anything negative. But maybe they just do not like talking about that.

Regards,
Vahan

[sen_Vahan]

Hard? What do you mean? "Veshi nado nazivat' svoimi imenami", as Russians say. Do you agree that Ali nothing to do with the things I wrote? but he is the only person we have the dialogue with.
Vahan

[sen_Vahan]

Come on... I am not doing any generalization calling that a Turkish garbage. And I guess you know what I mean by that. And Ali has nothing to do with it. I think that it is a garbage and we should not refer to that any more as a literature source for genocide or our relations (especially as a historical source). And please do not show me your way of thinking, I can always apologise if it is necessary.

Vahan

[sen_Vahan]

Where have I shown you my way of thinking ?

You show me your responce,Domino, but it does not mean that I was writing it with a negative tone in order to insult Ali. No way!

"You talk about Ali changing the subject, then you talk about return of land... what this has to do with the recognition ?"

First of all, I am not talking about the return of land I am just asking which means I want to know his opinion. Second, I think Ali knows much more about the subject than I do but everybody has its own interests except the facts alone.
Third, recognition for the Turkish state has something to do with the lands and Turks are far more careful and diplomatic in in this problem. I feel that Ali is a real patriot of his country and he probably knows what I mean. I would like to know his opinion.

"This person came here to discuss, he may have wrong informations it is to you to show that they are wrong, it is not by calling something trash that it show that you have a point. "

In general you are right,Domino, but not in particular. Pay attention to what I am calling trash. May I ask you whether you agree with that? In my opinion, to have progressive and good dialogue we should try to improove the topic but not just refer to some traditional literature that we as well as many Turks know to be trash. (Here I mean the Armenian trash too which is not less than the Turkish)

There is too much useless stuff now (Arm&Turkish) in literature, relations. But shouldn't we throw them away in order to understand each other better?

Regards,
Vahan

[bellthecat]

Ali, I didn't think Turkey ever had an aristocracy along European lines. Position was, at the start of the empire, attained mostly through ability and luck, and at the end, mostly by bribes. And everything could be lost at the whim of the sultan. Very little was to do with the "natural" inheritance of power and position over others as if it were a god-given right, which is the essence of aristocracy. Or have I got it wrong?