29 replies to this topic

[nairi]

Well, I think it got its first big recent slap when the European Parliament pressed recognition as a precondition for accession of Turkey into the EU. This whole debacle was sort of expected. Anything to keep Turkey out for just a few more years, but not scare it away completely. Holland likes to kiss behinds. They'll follow any higher up decision. In this case the EP's. But it's nice to have it on paper anyway, and to see that the whole chamber agreed. Doesn't happen very often.

[Siamanto]

[The following is an automatic translation using Systran. Siamanto.]

Under discussion the debate concerning the European summit is.

The deliberation is opened.

* N

Mr Van Baalen (VVD): President.

It is well that the Netherlands as a President of the Union attention
has asked for the mass assassination in the first world war on the
assyrians and the armenians. That is none Kopenhagen-criterium,
but that does not mean that it is very important that Turkey the
history looks at right in the face and a conciliatory gesture makes.

Mr Rouvoet (Christian Union): You say correct that it none
Kopenhagen-criterium are. You say however also that it is very
important. Of how large importance is it for your fractie? The
European Parliament has adopted about this resolutions, which mean
that it is a condition. Does this question for you weigh how heavily?
What do does your fractie if that gesture is not made and the
history no right is done, to in onderwijsboekjes?

Mr Van Baalen (VVD): It is no criterion for starting the
negotiations. In the general consultation I have however already
indicated that the Dutch government must go, also when them no
President of the Union more is about this continuously in conversation
with the Turkish government. The government must constantly insist
that Turkey steps in by our desired direction puts. I think then for
example of scientific research, conferences and discussions with
people concerned.
In short: Turkey must do look at and try everything the history in the
eyes achieve propitiation. It is however none separate
Kopenhagen-criterium, nor for concluding the negotiations, nor for
starting of it.

Mr Rouvoet (Christian Union): Means this that Vvd-fractie
consider it conceivable that a country toetreedt to the European
Union that on a point if genocide does no right to its own history and
that in vague late?


Mr Van Baalen (VVD): We are glad that also Austria has recognised
its role in the history, but that was not yet the case then Austria
joined the European Union. We are also glad that Romania has
recognised the share of the Rumanian government in the holocaust, but
this has just happened at the end of the complete process of
accession. In other words: it be if would appreciate very Turkey these
takes steps, but Vvd-fractie do not link it with the criteria for
the beginning or the end of the negotiations.

The lord carpenters (PvdA): President. I agree with the analysis of
Mr Van Baalen concerning the Armenian question. That question has
remained underexposed in the conclusions of the European Council. A
number of members of has in avance, however, indicated the European
Council and the Dutch government that to that large behang was been
attached. Someone who wants determine component of a European value
community must peace has with its own past, among which also the black
pages of that past. That is not in all Member States of the European
Union 100% the case. Every country has its own haunts and is own black
pages which for everyone difficult are in clean come along.
It the Rumanians has succeeded by means of a commission of historians
come to a appreciatie of the role of the Rumanian government at the
holocaust and there heavy and difficult take off conclusions.
Datzelfde has also succeeded concerning the communist past in
totalitarian regimes in centrally - and Eastern-European countries. It
then also must is able succeed in Turkey what concerns the role of the
Turks at the Armenian genocide in 1915. I repeats the word of Orhan
Pamuk about that. He says: it is this way painful for the Turks
because it is this way allied with the ontstaansgeschiedenis of the
modern Turkish state, but painful page also this we Turks under eyes
must see. I am that with him once.
I think that the EU on that point its good services must offer to
Turkey because eventually the propitiation with its own history is a
matter of a people himself. That cannot be enforced with the knife on
the throat from outside. That from the people must be also carried. We
can offer our good services thereby.
My fractie makes care concerning schijnbare relative freedom
with which is stepped in the conclusions concerning the problem of the
ICTI. THE ICTI are not satisfied with cooperation. I adopt that
we do not will negotiate with Croatia if the Yugoslavia tribunal says
that the collaboration of the Croatian authorities is insufficient.

The lord lords (LPF): Is it concerning Croatia thus not reasonable
to a people give the chance in clean to touch with its own past? We
will negotiate with Croatia just like we with Turkey have are done.
What is the difference between the Balkans and the Armenian genocide?

The lord carpenters (PvdA): The difference is that there in the
case of Croatia spoke of culprits to war crime which walks around
still and against which a detection command has been spent by an
internationally recognised tribunal. The government who is responsible
for extraditing that suspected cooperates according to the court
insufficiently in the extradition. The daders of the Armenian
genocide no longer walk around. If they would run still round, I the
first would be say that they had be traced and for a tribunal had be
brought. Those lieden have long died however unfortunately already
complete.

The lord lords (LPF): That is I with you once. Doesn't it concern
the time of the launching of the negotiations? Solved in the case of
Turkey and also of other accession negotiations they problems always
werkendeweg. We also werkendeweg with Croatia to agreement are
able attain. That misses I. You are strict compared with Croatia. That
is correct. I am it once with that. I miss that with respect to
Turkey.

The lord carpenters (PvdA): That is not I with you once. The
demands which the EU makes now to Turkey, also in the field of human
rights and before it is started there with negotiate, are stricter
than the demands which have been made for the start of the
negotiations to the ten Member States which have been since May 2004
member of the EU.

The lord lords (LPF): President. What has been agreed concerning
the Armenian question, concerning the recognition of the genocide? In
Brussels it remained ominous quiet.
The hr Rouvoet I feel decency concerning the missed chance in
the Council conclusions of discussing the Armenian question. In
interrupties I have here already on former. In this chamber is
there frequently concerning said and the European Parliament has made
of this a condition for accession, but is been silent in the Council
conclusions about this. How can she indicate the government in the
period up to the effective beginning of the negotiations will go? I
can adopt that it will come up for discussion at the development of
Council conclusion 23 concerning the intensive political and cultural
dialogue.

Turkey should be taken as a full member of the European family, then
the border with Armenia a European external border will be. It is not
only in the interest of the surviving dependants of the Armenian
genocide, but in the interest of European stability that this dark
chapter can be also concluded. In a resolution which has been adopted
on 15 December last in the European Parliament, becomes Turkey
requested promote the propitiation process with the Armenian people by
recognising the genocide on the Armenians. In the general
consultation of last week minister Bot indicated that he found that
Turkey must come by accession to the European Union with itself in
clean on this area. Does the minister aim here on the explicit Turkish
recognition of the genocide on the armenians?

Does a task see the minister for the EU stepping put aside to put to
reach a propitiation between armeniërs and Turks and, if so, is
there a timetable for this process? Believes the minister with us that
there for, starts 3 October 2005 of the actual negotiations, progress
must be booked on this file? We have there in the general consultation
concerning said that this subject did not have be incorporated in the
Council conclusions because this hampers the matter, but to let be it
a continuously subject of conversation. Has progress been achieved in
that conversation?


During the same general consultation many pleaded explicitly with me
for attention for the Armenian genocide. I observe that after two
years discussion concerning Assyrian and Armenian question now a
majority in the House of Commons speaks of the genocide of 1915. that
a step in the good direction is. It is important that the outlined
majority keeps busy on Turkey and the EU in score. In the Council
conclusions no attention is therefore given to this question. We want
know which appointments have made the EU about this with Turkey. It is
a continuously subject of conversation, as the minister said.


* N

The lord of of the Staaij (SGP): President. It is notable that
sensitive questions such as the position of religious minorities, the
position of the Christians, but also the recognition of the Armenian
genocide and of Cyprus or at the most camouflaged to retrieve be in
the Council conclusions. I dovetail myself those who have asked what
has been discussed exactly concerning the Armenian genocide. That is
an important point. We have not indicated that genocide rather as
zomaar a historical question, but as a lake tired test for the way
Turkey handles its history and for the way the freedom of opinion
expression in that country functions.

The lord Duyvendak (greenness-left): Sir the President. The
fractie of greenness-left is attached also very to the recognition
of the Armenian question. I gladly connect myself at the words of Mr
Van Baalen and of of the Staaij about this.
I gladly get a response of the government to further course of this
debate.


Minister Balkenende:

Mr Van Bommel has made an observation concerning paragraph 20 and
involving the international legal agencies at border disputes. We have
had about this well consultation with Greece. Becomes also there as a
matter of fact recognised that numerous improvements have been already
reached. There are from time to time still difficulties. That has been
marked and for this reason it is this way formulated.


Minister Bot: Sir the President. The Armenian question has also been
during the previous AO exhaustive under discussion. We have there
with Turkey - and an other time concerning said. In Turkey a
commencement has been really made, again under very of the European
Union, with the research. There its files opened and its commissions
appointed there. That was two, three years suffered still total
unthinkable. You could not even the subject or name the name or you
got already "no". On the moment are open they and recognise they that
this is a problem that must be solved.
They not only recognise that this genocide question in the a or other
manner must be brought in clean, but they realise also that the matter
goes further, because they border to Armenia, with which an agreement
must be reached. This proves - and other time how important it is that
we embed Turkey in the European Union to ensure that such conflicts
are removed, we can which exercise continuously very and that they
prepared to be listen and in a reasonable political dialogue
reasonable solutions to reach.


Second period *


Mr Rouvoet (Christian Union): President.

Mr Rouvoet (Christian Union): My fundamental nonsuit does not mean
that I present next motion to the chamber concerning the Armenian
genocide.

* M.

The chamber,

heard the deliberation,

observing that the European Council has decided, at meeting on 16 and
17 December 2004 in Brussels, the start of the accession negotiations
with Turkey by 3 October 2005;

observing that the European Council in its conclusions has fixed that
with Turkey an intensive political and cultural dialogue is
contracted, where also the civil society is involved, in order to
improve the reciprocal term by bringing together conclusion (23 people)
of opinion that is linked with that inextricable a honest ambulatory
with its own history of an applicant country; the government requests
within the framework of this dialogue with Turkey continuously and
expressly bring up the recognition of the Armenian genocide,

and proceeds to the order of the day.

The President: This motion has been presented by the members
Rouvoet, Van Bommel, of of the Staaij, of of the alley, Van
Baalen, lords, Duyvendak and Wilders. She gets no. 270
(21501-20).

Mr Van Bommel (SP): President. I can short be, because it has
been spoken by the government concerning all points. A number of
points wants I however still mark, because I have emphasised them in
my first period this way.
What concerns the border problems of Turkey, the minister-president
has only spoken concerning Greece. I Cyprus still himself has called,
but it speaks for itself that that question is involved. My question
was actual: countries there is more where those border problems a role
could play? I gladly receive then still answer in second period. The
motion of the Christian Union concerning Armenia I have most
supported, because it is a point that I myself also always have made
on behalf of Sp-fractie. It is a continuously subject of
conversation. To let we about that clear be compared with Turkey: we
expect something of this country on that point.


Minister Bot: President. I consider motion which Mr has submitted
Rouvoet, indeed as a support for the existing policy. For this
reason I welcome her. Mr Rouvoet requests the government within the
framework of the dialogue with Turkey bring up the recognition of the
Armenian genocide. I suggest you to request within the framework of
this dialogue stimulate the government that Turkey with Armenia in a
more intensive manner speak concerning the Armenian genocide of 1915
or words of that scope. Then it becomes for Turkey easier still more
positive this contract discussion. I repeat that this motion supports
our policy and that we welcome its as such.


Mr Rouvoet (Christian Union): In response to this suggestion I
notice that me has not escaped that the Minister for Foreign Affairs
in its first period has said it and an other one what Turkey to this
must repeat. This motion of the parliament underlines that need. The
parliament asks there in commission with the Dutch government for that
Netherlands this point in the coming years expressly on the agenda
keeps. The minister can interpret this according to the scope which
has the motion in my eyes. I think that we have no difference of
opinion.

Minister Bot: Thanks you, however.

The deliberation is closed.


The President: Concerning the given notice of motions at the end of
the meeting it is vanavond voted.


Poll

To the order the polls concerning motions, have been submitted in the
debate concerning the European summit, namely know:
- motie-Rouvoet the c.s. concerning bring up of the Armenian
genocide within the framework of the dialogue with Turkey (21501-20,
no. 270); 272).

(To see meeting of present.)

The President: I give occasion to giving voice statements in advance.

In poll come motie-Rouvoet the c.s. (21501-20, no. 270).

The President: I observe that this motion has been unanimously
adopted.
**

[Sasun]

Sasun, you guys are one of the first to know Does that compensate?

It compensates somewhat, but not fully

[Sasun]

I think we (Armenia and the Armenian communities worldwide) should cash in at this moment, rather than expect Turkey to be rejected from the EU. We have no control on that. So the best we can do is play with the rare weekness of the situation between us and Turkey and cash in trying to get concessions somehow. Or else it happened before that we have been disillusioned by Europe. It may possibly come to a similar situation where the EU admits Turkey and forgets about the existence of Armenians at all. In other words, resolution 16 may turn out to be a 61 (or was it another number? never mind)

[shaunt]

So what real consequences does this have?

[Nakharar]

Not much I presume. It's just a ploy to dupe the Armenians. They will give a carrot or two to Turkey to ask for their forgiveness in the end.

[Armen]

STAATSCOURANT (DUTCH GOVERNMENT GAZETTE) NO. 17

Tuesday 25 January 2005

Armenian Auschwitz

'This God, to whom you want pray, does not exist. Where was he when the Jews
in Poland had dig their own graves? Where was he when the Nazi's played with
the skulls of Jewish children? If he exists and he has been silent, he is a
murderer just like Hitler.' These are the words of Joseph Shapiro, main
character from the novel The Penitent of Isaac Bashevis Singer. They are in
fact also the words of Richard Rubinstein in his book entitled After
Auschwitz: 'Auschwitz killed God'.

This week, it is 60 years ago that the concentration camp Auschwitz was
liberated. Was Auschwitz indeed that turning point in the mental history of
humanity, about which Joseph Shapiro and Richard Rubinstein speak? The
moment when the belief in God, and therewith the existence of God, was no
longer justifiable? No matter how strange it may sound, I would like for
this to be true. I would like that no earlier horrors of the same level as
Auschwitz had taken place, by which God or a another human unifying
universal faith would lose its credibility once and for all. But this is not
so simple.

This year is also the 'jubilee year' of another horror. This one took place
not only almost 30 years before Auschwitz, but therefore also served as a
model for Auschwitz. It was Hitler himself who in 1939, briefly before the
bloody attack on Poland, made clear to his army commanders that Germany
should not be afraid of world opinion. Because, he said, 'Wer redet heute
noch von der Vernichtung der Armenier?' (Who, after all, speaks today of the
annihilation of the Armenians?). How it is possible that, different from
Auschwitz, the massacres of the Armenians, which were committed under
command and responsibility of the Turkish government in the period of
1915­17, can still be denied by the perpetrator who continues to get away
with it internationally? On 24 April 1915, thousands of Armenian
politicians, priests and intellectuals were arrested in some large Turkish
cities and were in part directly assassinated and in part deported. It was
the start signal for the deportation and then eradication of the largest
part of the Armenian population in the Turkish Empire. Of the two million
Armenians living there, according to prominent historians certainly
1,200,000 died in concentration camps, by massacre or by starvation. In that
process German diplomats and consultants were ­ Turkey had chosen the side
of Germany in the first World War I ­ actively involved.

The Turkish minister directly responsible for the Armenian Auschwitz, Talaat
*****, did not make a particular secret out of it. As such he asked the
American ambassador at that time, Henry Morgenthau, the following: 'I wish
that you would get the American Life Insurance companies to send us a
complete list of Armenian policy holders. They are practically all dead now
and have left no heirs to collect the money. It of course all escheats to
the state. The government is beneficiary now. Will you do so?' The request
has not been granted. But the fact remains that numerous streets and squares
of modern Turkish cities are named after Talaat *****. The fact is also that
the EU talks with Turkey about accession without having required the
recognition of her Auschwitz in advancee. I am deeply ashamed as an
European.

René F.W. Diekstra
-------------------------------------

STAATSCOURANT (DUTCH GOVERNMENT GAZETTE) NO. 23

Wednesday, 2 February 2005

Members of Parliament condemn Armenian genocide

By André Rouvoet

In the Dutch Government Gazette of 25 January René Diekstra, under the title
'Armenian Auschwitz', wrote about the horrors of the Armenian Genocide. He
rightly concludes that the EU will talk with Turkey about accession without
requiring the recognition of her Auschwitz in advance. For that Diekstra is
deeply ashamed as a European.

I can imagine his feeling of shame well. Like Diekstra many factions in the
House of Representatives were very disappointed about the lack of the
requirement for the recognition of this Genocide by Turkey in the
conclusions of the European Council of December 2004. Preceding that summit,
many factions had expressly called for such a requirement.

In the debate on the conclusions of the European summit, where much
attention was given to the reached agreement with respect to the start of
the negotiations with Turkey, I therefore introduced a motion in which the
government is requested, within the framework of the intensive political and
cultural dialogue, which will be conducted parallel to the accession
negotiations with Turkey, to continuously and expressly raise the
recognition of the Armenian genocide. Nevertheless, a (new) European Member
State must be required to deal with its own history honestly. Minister Bot
welcomed this motion, which was unanimously accepted by the House of
Representatives.

Unfortunately it is true that the House of Representatives cannot add the
requirement of recognition to the conclusions of the European Council
through a motion. Meanwhile, however, this parliamentary pronouncement is of
great and fundamental significance. It is namely the first time that the
Dutch House of Representatives explicitly speaks of 'the Armenian genocide'.
Whereas the European Parliament has already done this, the term 'genocide'
was so far always avoided in the Dutch parliament. The fact that the
parliament has now unanimously sided with a motion in which the events of
1915 to 1917 are actually labelled as genocide and the fact that the Dutch
government has also welcomed this motion is of great significance for the
Armenian community world wide.

Moreover, in the debate several spokesmen also referred to the massacres of
the Assyrian people. Although the motion does not mention this issue, when
asked, the Minister of Foreign Affairs insured me that he will interpret the
motion in such a way that in this also the Assyrians are included. Therefore
both horrors will be raised in the negotiations with Turkey.

I am of the same opinion as Diekstra that justice must be done to the entire
history. The acceptance of my motion has the chance that this will
effectively happen in the coming time. Either way, it has been brought a
little closer.

The author is Chairman of the Christian Union faction in the House of
Representatives.

[nairi]

Rene Diekstra actually wrote two more articles in a regional paper called Tubantia from Twente where he regularly writes columns. He has been threatened by the Turkish community in Holland since his publiation of these two articles (maybe Siamanto can perform one of his miracles again ):

Zaterdag 15 Januari 2005

Turkije's misdaad (Turkey's Crime)

Door René Diekstra

,,Ik wil graag,'' zei Talaat, ,,dat u de Amerikaanse levensverzekeringsmaatschappijen er toe beweegt om ons een complete lijst te sturen van al hun Armeense polishouders. Ze zijn praktisch allemaal dood nu en er zijn geen erfgenamen meer om het geld te innen. Het vervalt daarom allemaal aan de staat. De regering is nu de begunstigde. Wilt dat doen?'' Dat was me te veel en ik verloor mijn zelfbeheersing. ,,U zult zo'n lijst niet van mij krijgen,'' zei ik, stond op en vertrok.

Deze passage is afkomstig uit het boek dat de Amerikaanse ambassadeur in Turkije, Henry Morgenthau, in 1918 publiceerde, kort nadat hij naar de Verenigde Staten was teruggekeerd. Ze verwijst naar één van de ergste gruweldaden uit de vorige eeuw, in verschrikking eigenlijk alleen te vergelijken met de uitroeiing van de joden door de Nazi's. Maar er is een belangrijk verschil. Terwijl de natie die verantwoordelijk is voor de joodse holocaust, Duitsland, daarvoor de verantwoordelijkheid volledig op zich heeft genomen, heeft de natie die verantwoordelijk is voor die andere, de Armeense holocaust, namelijk Turkije, tot op de dag van vandaag geweigerd hetzelfde te doen.

Dat roept een pijnlijke vraag op. Stel dat Duitsland tot nu toe steeds geweigerd had de door haar gepleegde uitroeiing van de joden toe te geven, zouden we dan met dat land in een Europese Gemeenschap willen zitten? De vraag stellen is haar beantwoorden. Hoe kunnen we het dan maken, zoals inmiddels al is besloten, om met Turkije over toetreding te gaan praten?

Het antwoord luidt, vrees ik, dat morele overwegingen, zeg maar essentiële waarden, ondergeschikt zijn gemaakt aan politieke, economische en militair-strategische belangen. Dat gebeurt wel vaker. Maar het is wel bijzonder wrang dat deze verkwanseling van morele waarden juist is gebeurd onder het voorzitterschap van onze eigen minister-president, die zich afficheert als de grote waarden-en-normen voorvechter. Moreel gezien had hij, namens de EU, van Turkije moeten eisen dat zij haar verantwoordelijkheid voor de genocide op de Armeniërs, openlijk zou erkennen alvorens er überhaupt van gesprekken over toetreding sprake kon zijn.

Blijkbaar zijn we er op dit punt in de afgelopen eeuw niet op vooruitgegaan. Want direct na de Eerste Wereldoorlog vond men wereldwijd dat Turkije hier niet mee weg mocht komen, getuige de reacties op een in verschillende opzichten hoogst opmerkelijke gebeurtenis op 15 maart 1921. In de Hardenbergstraat te Charlottenburg bij Berlijn, vermoordt een Armeense student, Teilirian genaamd, de gewezen Turkse staatsman Talaat *****, dezelfde waar Morgenthau het in de aangehaalde passage over had. De moordenaar wordt door een woedende menigte gegrepen, tot bloedens toe geslagen en aan de politie overgeleverd. Op 2 juni van dat jaar begint het proces tegen de dader. Daarin wordt ondubbelzinnig vastgesteld dat Teilirian, weliswaar zwaar getraumatiseerd, maar toch met voorbedachte rade, zijn slachtoffer om het leven heeft gebracht.

De volgende dag al doet de Berlijnse rechtbank uitspraak: Teilirian wordt vrijgesproken. Door de hele wereld gaat een zucht van verlichting en het gevoel dat het recht heeft gezegevierd. Voor Teilirian zelf betekent de uitspraak niets minder dan een persoonlijke gedaanteverwisseling. Van een ontredderd, angstig, alles en iedereen wantrouwend wezen verandert hij in een persoon die weer vertrouwen in de wereld, in de toekomst en in zichzelf krijgt.

Zijn slachtoffer was tijdens de Eerste Wereldoorlog minister van binnenlandse zaken van het Turkse Rijk geweest. Op zijn bevel was het vraagstuk van de daar wonende Armeniërs 'opgelost'. In 1915 werden de Turkse Armeniërs van hun bezittingen beroofd, uit hun woonplaatsen weggejaagd en in de meeste gevallen op beestachtige wijze afgeslacht of via uithongering, verwaarlozing of marteling om het leven gebracht. Niemand weet precies hoeveel het er zijn geweest, maar zeker is dat minstens 600.000 en mogelijk zelfs 1,5 miljoen Armeniërs zijn omgekomen.

Bij een van de slachtpartijen was toen 16-jarige Teilirian met een geweerkolf neergeslagen. Doodgewaand had men later het zwaar verminkte lijk van zijn broer boven op hem gegooid. Twee dagen lang lag Teilirian onder het lichaam van zijn broer zonder zich te durven verroeren. In die tijd had hij talloze malen naar de wanhoopskreten van zijn zusters moeten luisteren die steeds weer op de meest walgelijke wijze werden verkracht en tenslotte in stukken gehakt.

Als enige overlevende van zijn grote familie zwierf de jongen jaren door Perzië en Turkije, totdat hij ten slotte weer in zijn geboortestad terugkwam. Van de oorspronkelijk 20.000 Armeniërs daar waren er nog amper dertig in leven. Op een nacht, zo vertelde hij de rechtbank, was zijn moeder in een droom bij hem gekomen en had hem bevolen zich op de moordenaars te wreken. De vrijspraak van Teilirian is de eerste en tot nu toe enige keer dat aan een slachtoffer van de Armeense holocaust recht is gedaan. Stemmen tegen toetreding van Turkije zou wel eens de enige andere manier kunnen blijken om te zorgen dat het niet bij die ene keer blijft.

-------
Zaterdag 29 Januari 2005

Naar Auschwitz via Istanbul (To Auschwitz via Istanbul)

Door René Diekstra

Er zijn nog altijd mensen, die de euvele moed hebben te ontkennen dat de nazi's miljoenen joden in concentratie-kampen hebben vermoord. Dat bleek deze week weer eens, nota bene in Duitsland, waar werd herdacht dat 60 jaar geleden het concentratiekamp Auschwitz werd bevrijd. De dodenteller van dat kamp is op 1.500.000 blijven staan. De Duitse regering en het overgrote deel van het Duitse volk schamen zich mateloos voor diegenen onder hen, die deze realiteit keihard ontkennen. 'Negationisten' worden ze genoemd. Met negationisten wil de moderne, democratische en weldenkende Duitser niets te maken hebben. En dat is ook de enige passende reactie.

Maar hoe anders is de situatie ten aanzien van een andere gruweldaad van vrijwel dezelfde omvang als Auschwitz, waarvan dit jaar ook een 'jubileum' plaatsvindt. Op 24 april 1915 werden in enkele Turkse steden duizenden Armeense politici, geestelijken en intellectuelen opgepakt, voor een deel direct vermoord en voor een deel gedeporteerd. Het was het startsein voor de uitroeiing van het grootste deel van de Armeense bevolking in het Turkse rijk. Van de twee miljoen daar levende Armeniërs hebben er volgens vooraanstaande historici zeker 1.200.000 in concentratie-kampen, door slachtpartijen of door uithongering de dood gevonden.


Dubieus

Onlangs heb ik op deze plaats aandacht gevraagd voor dit Turkse Auschwitz. Aanleiding was het besluit van de EU om met Turkije gesprekken over toetreding te beginnen. Vanuit humanitair en moreel oogpunt een uiterst dubieus besluit. Achtereenvolgende Turkse regeringen, de huidige inbegrepen, hebben de massamoord op de Armeniërs altijd ontkend en ook het grootste deel van de Turkse bevolking doet dat.

Dit Turkse 'negationisme' is even erg als het Duitse negationisme. Mijns inziens had de EU het standpunt moeten innemen dat er over toetreding tot de Unie niet te praten valt, voordat Turkije openlijk haar schuld en verantwoordelijkheid in deze erkent. Ik heb het geweten. Nauwelijks was mijn artikel in deze krant verschenen of het regende emails, vrijwel allemaal met, naar ik kan opmaken, afzenders met Turkse namen. De inhoud van de meeste daarvan liegt er niet om. Men maakt mij ofwel de meest heftige verwijten of begint gewoon grof te schelden.

Een korte bloemlezing. 'Dit is weer zo'n aanval op de Islam, want u bent christen en de Armeniërs ook', 'U moet niet liegen, er heeft helemaal geen massamoord plaatsgevonden', 'Het is een grof schandaal dat u uw column in de krant misbruikt voor het verspreiden van dit soort anti-Turkse onzin'.

Daarnaast ook verkapte bedreigingen, die ik hier niet zal herhalen. Ook de krant moest het ontgelden. 'Een grof schandaal, dat ze zo'n politiek-propagandistisch artikel heeft geplaatst'. Ik ga ervan voorlopig vanuit dat deze reacties niet de opvatting van de meerderheid van in Nederland levende mensen van Turkse afkomst weerspiegelen. Maar ze weerspiegelen helaas wel het officiële Turkse standpunt.


Belangrijk

Helaas, want in de 20 jaar dat ik me met het onderwerp bezig houd, is me duidelijk geworden dat het een standpunt tegen de feiten in is. Ook de parlementen van verschillende Europese landen, zoals Frankrijk in 2001 en sinds december 2004 ook Nederland, zijn inmiddels overtuigd van de gruwelijke waarheid van het Turkse Auschwitz. Het gaat om een belangrijke kwestie. Zo belangrijk dat het zelfs terecht zou zijn als wij in Nederland het aanstaande referendum over de Europese Grondwet zouden gebruiken om via een 'nee' duidelijk te maken dat geen gesprekken met Turkije mogen plaatsvinden alvorens ze haar negationisme opgeeft.

Laat ik, naast wat ik eerder heb geschreven, nog twee redenen daarvoor noemen. Tijdens de Eerste Wereldoorlog koos Turkije de kant van Duitsland en Duitse diplomaten waren nauwkeurig op de hoogte van de wijze waarop de Turkse minister van binnenlandse zaken, Talaat *****, de uitroeiing van de [Hitler

Armeniers via een speciaal daarvoor opgerichte organisatie liet uitvoeren.

Er is reden om aan te nemen dat de genocide op de Armeniers daarmee model heeft gestaan voor die op joden. Sterker nog, het was Hitler zelf die in 1939, kort voor de bloedige aanval op de Polen, zijn legerbevelhebbers als volgt duidelijk maakte dat Duitsland van de wereldopinie niets te vrezen had. 'Wer redet heute noch,' zo zei hij, 'von der Vernichtung der Armenier?'

De Nazi's hadden aan dat stilzwijgen zelf actief bijgedragen, bijvoorbeeld door boeken over de Armeense uitroeiing te verbieden (een situatie die in Turkije de facto nog bestaat). Ook anderzins speelde Duitsland in deze een dubieuze rol. Talaat ***** werd vanwege zijn rol in de Armeense genocide na de oorlog door een Turkse rechtbank bij verstek ter dood veroordeeld, maar kreeg politiek asiel in Duitsland. Overigens, de Turken zelf hebben die veroordeling nooit serieus genomen. Het was vooral bedoeld als een kniebuiging naar de geallieerde overwinnaars, zoals blijkt uit het volgende. In Istanbul is een mausoleum voor Talaat opgericht en doorheen Turkije zijn nog altijd straten en pleinen naar hem vernoemd. Anders gezegd, ook via Istanbul kun je in Auschwitz uitkomen.

Edited by nairi, 14 February 2005 - 04:59 PM.

[Siamanto]

(maybe Siamanto can perform one of his miracles again ):

nairi,
What's the magic word?

Abracadabra!
Et voila!



Saturday 15 January 2005

Turkije's crime (Turkey's crime)

By René Diekstra

, I want gladly, ' ' Talaat, said that you move the American life
insurance societies to send us a complete list of already their
Armenian polishouders. They are practically all dead now and there are
no more heirs collect the money. For this reason it expires all to the
state. The government is now the beneficiary. Wants that to do?' '
That was me too much and I lost my itself control. ,,U will not get
such a list of me, ' ' I said, stood up and left.

This passage comes from the book which published the American
ambassador in Turkey, Henry Morgenthau, in 1918, briefly after he had
returned to the United States. She refers to one of the most terrible
atrocities from the previous century, in verschrikking to in fact only
compare with the eradication of the Jews by the Nazi's. But there is
an important difference. Whereas the nation which is responsible for
the Jewish holocaust, has assumed Germany, for that the responsibility
entirely, the nation which is responsible for those other has, the
Armenian holocaust, namely do Turkey, up to on the day of today
refused the same.

That calls a painful question. Couple had so far always refused wants
sit that Germany by its committed eradication of the Jews to admit, we
then with that country in a European community? The question couples
is its answers. How can we can make it then, as it to have meanwhile
already decided, to concern and talk with Turkey accession?

The answer sounds, fears I that but moral considerations say,
essential values, subordinate has been made to political, economic and
soldier-military-strategic interests. That happens more often. But it
is particularly sour that this squandering of moral values has
happened correctly under the chairmanship of our own
minister-president, who posts itself as large waarden-en-normen a
voorvechter. Morals had seen he, on behalf of the EU, of Turkey must
require that she would recognise its responsibility for the genocide
on the armeniërs, openly before überhaupt of conversations
concerning accession talk could be.

Apparently we have not progressed on this point in the previous
century on. Because directly after the first world war found one
worldwide that Turkey could not come, getuige the responses to a
highest event remarkable in several respects on 15 March 1921. in the
hardening mount street at Charlottenburg at Berlin, assassinate an
Armenian student, Teilirian called, the former Turkish statesman
Talaat *****, the same where Morgenthau had it in the quoted passage
concerning. The assassin is seized by a raging mob, to bloedens beaten
and to the police force handed over. On 2 June of that year the
process starts against the dader. In this it is unambiguously
determined that Teilirian have nevertheless brought, traumatised
indeed heavily, but with intentionally rade, its victim for living.

The next day already the Berlin court pronounces sentence:
Teilirian are clearred. By the complete world a sigh of reduction
and the feeling goes which the right has triumphed. For Teilirian
themselves the pronouncement means nothing less than a personal
transfiguration. Of upset, anxious, everything and everyone
suspiciously being changes he in a person who trusts in the world, in
the future and in itself gets.

Its victim had been during the first world war minister of home
affairs of the Turkish realm. On its command the question of the there
living armeniërs ' had been solved '. In 1915, the Turkish
armeniërs were deprived of their property, from their places of
residence chased off and in most of the cases in a bestial manner
massacred or by means of uithongering, verwaarlozing or torment
for living brought. Nobody weet exactly how much it have been, but
certain it is that at least 600,000 and 1.5 million armeniërs has
possibly even perished.

At of the slachtpartijen 16 person whose birthday it is
Teilirian with geweerkolf had then fallen down. Doodgewaand
one had later thrown the heavily mutilated lijk of its brother on
top of him. For two days Teilirian under the body of its brother
lay without move itself daring. In that time he innumerable grind to
the wanhoopskreten of its sisters would have had listen who were
violated always in the most repugnant manner and in pieces were
finally chopped.

As only survivor of its large family the boy roamed years by
perzië and Turkey, until he returned at slotte in its birth
city. Of the original 20,000 armeniërs were there still scarcely
thirty live. On a night, this way told he the court, its mother had
come revenge itself in a dream at him and him had ordered on the
assassins. The acquittal of Teilirian is the first and so far only
time that to a victim of the Armenian holocaust right has been done.
Votes against accession of Turkey sometimes the only other manner is
able appear ensure that it does not remain at that one time.

-------
Saturday 29 January 2005

To auschwitz by means of Istanbul (To auschwitz by means of
Istanbul)

By René Diekstra

There are still people, who have to euvele courage deny that the
nazi's millions have assassinated Jews in concentratie-kampen.
That proved to be these yielded again, note bene in Germany, where
was commemorated that 60 years suffered the concentration camp
auschwitz was delivered. The dead meter of that camp is on
1,500,000 continues stand. The German government and the major part of
the German people are ashamed themselves immensely for those under
them, which denies this reality rockly-hard. ' Negationisten '
they are called. With negationisten the modern, democratic and
right-minded duitser wants nothing do has. And that is also the
only appropriate response.


But how differently the situation is with respect to another atrocity
of nearly the same scope as auschwitz, of which this year also a '
jubilee ' takes place. Assassinated on 24 April 1915 in some Turkish
cities thousands Armenian politicians, priests and intellectuals were
taken up, partly directly and partly deported. It was the start signal
for the eradication of the largest part of the Armenian population in
the Turkish realm. Of the two millions there live armeniërs see
through by it according to prominent historians certain 1,200,000 in
concentratie-kampen, met end slachtpartijen or uithongering.


Dubious

Recently I on this attention have asked for this Turkish auschwitz.
Reason was the decision of the EU with Turkey start conversations
concerning accession. From humanitarian and moral point of view an
extremely dubious decision. Consecutive Turkish governments, current
included, have always denied the mass assassination on the
armeniërs and also the largest part of the Turkish population does
that.

This Turkish ' negationisme ' are just as terrible as the German
negationisme. In my opinion the EU the point of view would have had
take that concerning accession to the Union be talked cannot, before
Turkey recognises its debt and responsibility in these openly. I have
the conscience. My Article in this newspaper had hardly appeared or it
rained e-mails, nearly all with, to I can make up, shippers with
Turkish names. The contents of the most of it lie there not for. One
makes me or the most violent reproaches or starts ordinary grof
scold.

A short flower reading. ' this is such an attack on Islam, because
you are Christian and the armeniërs also ', ' you does not have
lie, no mass assassination has taken place ', ' it is grof scandal
that you your column in the newspaper for spreading this type
anti-Turkse nonsense abused '.

Moreover also veiled threats, which I will not repeat here. Also the
newspaper had pay for it. ' grof scandal, which them such a
politically-policy-political-propagandist Article has placed '. I do
not will reflect of it provisionally from that these responses the
conception of the majority of in the Netherlands live people of
Turkish source. But they reflect unfortunately the official Turkish
point of view.

Important

Unfortunately, because in the 20 years that I keep myself with the
subject busy, me has become clear that it a point of view is against
the facts in. Also the parliaments of several European countries, such
as France in 2001, and since December 2004 also the Netherlands, have
been meanwhile persuaded of atrocious truth of the Turkish
auschwitz. It concerns an important question. This way important
that it would be even correct if we would use in the Netherlands the
pleasing referendum concerning the European constitution by means of '
no ' clear to make that no conversations with Turkey to be possible
take place before them its negationisme give up.

I leave, beside what I rather has written, reasons still two for that
call. During the first world war Turkey chose the side of Germany and
German diplomats were informed precise of the way in which the Turkish
minister of home affairs, Talaat *****, the eradication of [ the
Hitler


Armeniers by means of a special for that established organisation
let carry out.

Intention reason that the genocide on the Armeniers with that model
has has been stood which on Jews. More strongly still, Hitler
themselves were which is in 1939, briefly for the bloody attack on
Poland, legerbevelhebbers as follows clear made that Germany of the
world opinion nothing to fear had. ' Wer nor, ' this way said to
redet heute he, ' von of the Vernichtung of the
Armenier?'

The Nazi's had contributed actively to that dumbness himself, for
example by booking concerning the Armenian eradication to prohibit (a
situation which exists in Turkey de facto still). Also anderzins
played Germany in these a dubious role. Talaat ***** were
condemned because of its role in the Armenian genocide after the war
by a Turkish court at contumacy for the dead, but got political asylum
in Germany. Moreover, the Turks themselves that condemnation never
have seriously taken. It had been especially meant as a knee
inflection to the allied victors, such as becomes clear from the
following. In Istanbul a mausoleum for Talaat has been set up and
doorheen Turkey still streets and squares have been named after to
him. Differently said, also by means of Istanbul you can end up in
auschwitz.

[Yervant1]

Greek Reporter

March 4 2021

 

 

 

Greek, Armenian Genocide Recognized by the Netherlands

 

ByTasos Kokkinidis

March 4, 2021

 

Greek, Armenian and Syriac genocide committed by the Ottoman Empire in the beginning of the 20th century were recognized by the Netherlands earlier in the week.

The move follows the overwhelming adoption by the Dutch parliament of a resolution noting that the government “still does not recognize the Armenian genocide of 1915 [perpetrated] by the Ottoman Empire (in which also the Arameans, Assyrians, and the Pontic Greeks were victims).”

The resolution stated that “there is more urgency than ever for countries to clearly speak out about the past in order to advance reconciliation and prevent repetition in the future.”

The genocide of 1915 was committed by the Ottoman Turks and Kurds against the Syriac people and occurred parallel to the genocides of Armenians and Greeks, which was not only reduced to the region of Pontus, but all Greeks in the Ottoman Empire.

The resolution said that 1.5 million Armenians, more than 300,000 Pontic Greeks, and up to another 700,000 other Greeks, as well as 300,000 of the region’s estimated 700,000 Syriacs (Assyrians-Chaldeans-Arameans) were massacred.

Turkey condemns decision

Turkey condemned the decision of the Dutch parliament calling it null and void.

Foreign Ministry spokesperson Hami Aksoy said the decision is a null attempt to rewrite history with political motives.

“Councils are not venues to write history and trial it. Those who agree with this decision, instead of looking for what actually happened in 1915, are after votes as a populist,” Aksoy said.

He said the Dutch House of Representatives is detached from reality as it has frequently been in recent years.

Aksoy invited the Dutch government to wage a struggle against racism, Islamophobia and xenophobia rather than taking decisions against Turkey.

Genocide a dark page in Greek history

Every year on May 19 Pontic Greeks commemorate one of the darkest pages in Hellenic history, as the date will forever be connected to the genocide of their ancestors at the hands of the Turks.

The Pontic Genocide cost 353,000 lives, while even more lost their homes and generations of wealth in the Pontus (Black Sea) region, and then were forced to emigrate to other places to begin their lives all over again.

Pontian Greeks had an ancient history in the area, going as far back as 800 BC.

The very first colonists in the Black Sea area were merchants from the Ionian Greek city-state of Miletus. They flourished during the time of the Byzantine Empire.

The persecution of the Pontic population, along with other Christian Greeks living n Ottoman lands, began in 1908.

The Turks, on the pretext of “national security,” displaced most of the Greek population by burning entire villages, either slaying those who resisted or chasing them off their ancestral lands.

 

Greek civilians from Pontus flee their homes during the genocide. Public domain

 

https://greekreporte...he-netherlands/