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Solutions to Nagorno - Karabakh Conflict


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#21 Sasun

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 12:32 PM

Opposition Candidate Elected Mayor Of Stepanakert

www.armenialiberty.org
By Hrant Aleksanian in Stepanakert

An opposition candidate pulled off a surprise upset against the leadership of the unrecognized Nagorno-Artsax Republic (NKR) on Sunday when he was elected as mayor of its capital Stepanakert.

Eduard Aghabekian, who has so far headed the social affairs committee of the Artsax parliament, cruised to a comfortable victory over his government-backed rival Pavel Najarian in the second, decisive round of the election. He won 58.6 percent of the vote, according to the Central Election Commission.

The outcome of the run-off vote could herald a serious change in local politics dominated until now by the NKR President Arkady Ghukasian. Stepanakert is home to a large part of the Armenian-populated region’s population.

Aghabekian hailed his victory as a triumph of democracy and pledged to live up to his voters’ expectations. “Time for speaking on behalf of the people is gone. It is now time to work for the people,” he told RFE/RL.

Aghabekian trailed Najarian by more than 8 percentage points after the first of voting held on August 9 as part of local elections across the region. He has been endorsed by the Artsax branch of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun) and Stepanakert’s outgoing mayor, Hamik Avanesian.

Aghabekian said the vote should also send a strong message to the international community. “We have shown the international community that elections in our unrecognized republics can be a success,” he said. “The country has remained peaceful and calm after the first round of voting. This means that a process of democratization is underway.”

The Artsax elections have been angrily denounced as illegitimate by Azerbaijan. The outgoing secretary general of the Council of Europe, Walter Schwimmer, has similarly criticized them, saying that such “one-sided actions are counter-productive” before a resolution of the Artsax conflict.

The NKR leadership, backed by Armenia proper, has rejected the criticism, repeating its argument that only elected representatives can govern the Artsax Armenians.

Edited by Sasun, 23 August 2004 - 12:36 PM.


#22 Sasun

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 12:34 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 23 2004, 02:32 PM)
The outgoing secretary general of the Council of Europe, Walter Schwimmer, has similarly criticized them, saying that such “one-sided actions are counter-productive” before a resolution of the Artsax conflict.

Who the hell is Schwimmer to deny democracy to any people? What right does he or anyone else have to say that Artsax people have no right to practice democracy??? mad.gif

#23 Twilight Bark

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 12:52 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 23 2004, 10:34 AM)
Who the hell is Schwimmer to deny democracy to any people? What right does he or anyone else have to say that Artsax people have no right to practice democracy???  mad.gif

It's just that, it is terribly convenient to generalize all the "breakaway regions" as crime-infested feudal fiefdoms, each run by a mafia boss. And then you have NKR spoiling the whole thing for the nice little status-quo-loving, realpolitik wielding "diplomats". They'd rather see complete misery and lack of democracy in those regions, so that their universe continues to make sense to them. Don't you see, it's just, ... so unfair. cry.gif

#24 Armen

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 01:00 PM

QUOTE (Twilight Bark @ Aug 23 2004, 12:52 PM)
cry.gif

TB, that was a typo. Edit smile.gif

#25 Armen

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 01:02 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 23 2004, 12:34 PM)
Who the hell is Schwimmer to deny democracy to any people? What right does he or anyone else have to say that Artsax people have no right to practice democracy??? mad.gif

That's why I say. The only way you keep territory is army and the willingnes to sacrifice your contrymen's lives.

#26 Sasun

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 01:06 PM

QUOTE (ArmenSarg @ Aug 23 2004, 03:02 PM)
That's why I say. The only way you keep territory is army and the willingnes to sacrifice your contrymen's lives.

But it should not be in Iraq smile.gif

#27 Armen

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 01:14 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 23 2004, 01:06 PM)
But it should not be in Iraq smile.gif

I didn't foget that, Sasun jan. I am just waiting for some info to appear and some more develpments to corner you, and particularly some others. Actually, some of that info is already there if you noticed. I am just waiting for that "deadly" amount smile.gif So hold your breath bud tongue.gif

#28 Sasun

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 01:24 PM

QUOTE (ArmenSarg @ Aug 23 2004, 03:14 PM)
I didn't foget that, Sasun jan. I am just waiting for some info to appear and some more develpments to corner you, and particularly some others. Actually, some of that info is already there if you noticed. I am just waiting for that "deadly" amount smile.gif So hold your breath bud tongue.gif

OK Armen jan, I will be waiting for the promised deadly blow and hopefully I will not die biggrin.gif

#29 Twilight Bark

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 01:26 PM

QUOTE (Sasun @ Aug 23 2004, 11:06 AM)
But it should not be in Iraq smile.gif

Without getting into the particulars of Iraq, I think the moral dilemma would be resolved if there were two tiers in the army. One, a voluntary elite force that is well-trained, well-paid, and is composed of individuals that have accepted to go into missions that are not strictly for defending their homes. The second tier would be "the rest", who can understand and relate to defending the territory of the homeland. The former would have the understanding that they are doing the bidding of their government, and accept the risk that their government could on occasion (or even more often) turn out to be a bunch of morons, and that they are risking their lives for their hare-brained ideas, but are nevertheless willing to assume that their superiors know what they are doing. But going into such units should be a conscious decision that should be presented in essentially that way (probably in less unflattering terms wink.gif ).

#30 Sasun

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 01:34 PM

QUOTE (Twilight Bark @ Aug 23 2004, 03:26 PM)
Without getting into the particulars of Iraq, I think the moral dilemma would be resolved if there were two tiers in the army.  One, a voluntary elite force that is well-trained, well-paid, and is composed of individuals that have accepted to go into missions that are not strictly for defending their homes.  The second tier would be "the rest", who can understand and relate to defending the territory of the homeland.  The former would have the understanding that they are doing the bidding of their government, and accept the risk that their government could on occasion (or even more often) turn out to be a bunch of morons, and that they are risking their lives for their hare-brained ideas, but are nevertheless willing to assume that their superiors know what they are doing.  But going into such units should be a conscious decision that should be presented in essentially that way (probably in less unflattering terms wink.gif ).

Yes TB, that should solve the moral dilemma. That would be a good solution. Or just one special unit where Armenian paid fighters and non-Armenian nationals such as unemployed Russian mercenaries could also serve under the Armenian flag. They would be easily sent to Iraq and earn the same exact amount of benefits for Armenia as otherwise.

Edited by Sasun, 23 August 2004 - 01:35 PM.


#31 Twilight Bark

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Posted 23 August 2004 - 03:34 PM

QUOTE (ArmenSarg @ Aug 23 2004, 11:00 AM)
TB, that was a typo. Edit smile.gif

No, no. I am shedding plenty of crocodile tears for the discomfort the precious diplomats must be feeling.

#32 Armen

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Posted 24 September 2004 - 09:42 PM

The Jamestown Foundation
Thursday, September 23 -- Volume 1, Issue 91
EURASIA DAILY MONITOR

IS RUSSIA READY TO RECOGNIZE SECESSIONIST STATELETS WITHIN THE CIS?

In an apparent attempt to break the strategic deadlock now governing Russia's policies in Georgia and Moldova, some Moscow political pundits advocate a speedy recognition of the secessionist regions of South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Trans-Dniester. To justify such a move, they advise putting the problem of the post-Soviet self-styled statelets into a global context and referring to the cases of East Timor, Eritrea, and Taiwan.

Until recently, only Russia's neo-imperialist and populist Zhirinovsky-type politicians suggested granting full diplomatic recognition to the handful of renegade enclaves that emerged in the borderlands of the former Soviet empire. Top officials in the Russian Foreign Ministry and in the Kremlin, including President Vladimir Putin have repeated, however, that Russia staunchly supports the territorial integrity of its neighbors in the Commonwealth of Independent States. But the tough dilemma Russia is facing, particularly in Georgia, due to the aggressive reunification drive of the Saakashvili government, prompts Moscow strategists to urge a policy shift.

The Kremlin's strategic predicament, most security experts contend, stems from its attempt to pursue two different policies at the same time. While Russia says it respects the inviolability of Georgia's internationally recognized borders and is ready to reach accommodation with Tbilisi, it supports the leadership of the renegade regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, where it has conferred Russian citizenship to a significant part of local populations. Such an ambiguous course could be pursued only within the framework of the precarious status quo that existed throughout Eduard Shevardnadze's weak reign. But Saakashvili has made clear that the old status quo is unsustainable. Now comes one of Russia's traditional "accursed questions": What is to be done?

Two important policy papers penned by respected analysts suggest that Russian leadership should recognize the self-proclaimed republics and rethink its overall understanding of the disintegration of the Soviet Union.

The past decade has demonstrated the malleability of international law principles, forcefully argues Andranik Migranyan, professor at the prestigious Moscow Institute of International Relations, in the programmatic article published in the September 17 issue of Izvestiya. "No common rules exist in the international community, and in each individual case the great powers take decisions proceeding from their own interests," contends Migranyan. He points out that nobody in the West tried to prevent the disintegration of Yugoslavia or the Soviet Union, although the secession of some constituent units of these two federative states clearly violated the existing laws. For its part, Russia's Yeltsin government made a number of tragic mistakes in connection with its obsession with "liberating" itself from Gorbachev's "imperial center." If Russia had recognized the territories that seceded from Georgia, Azerbaijan, Moldova, or Ukraine in the early 1990s (i.e. Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Nagorno-Artsax, Trans-Dniester or Crimea), "It could have stimulated the analogous processes in the Baltic lands, in northern Kazakhstan, in eastern Ukraine, and probably could have prevented the collapse of the USSR," argues Migranyan. Unfortunately, the actual scenario of Russia's own secession from the Soviet Union didn't allow it to recognize the self-proclaimed state entities in the borderlands, he adds.

The prominent political thinker Boris Mezhuyev agrees. If Yeltsin's Russia hadn't proclaimed its independence from what he called the historic Russian (Soviet) empire, but instead associated itself with the "imperial center," many future problems could have been avoided, argues Mezhuyev in a June 22 commentary posted on the Agentstvo Politicheskikh Novostei website. To remedy the current situation, Mezhuyev believes the Kremlin should do three things. First, Russia should "honestly and clearly" call itself a former colonial empire, identify its post-imperial status, and fashion the CIS to resemble the British Commonwealth. This, he believes, will help Moscow link the situation, say, in Trans-Dniester with those in Indonesia or Africa. Second, he calls for a kind of "civic amnesty" for the unrecognized states that emerged in the wake of the post-imperial collapse. Third, Russia should unilaterally (i.e. without waiting for a comprehensive legal settlement) recognize the secessionist statelets within the CIS (APN.ru, June 22).

Migranyan shares this strategic approach. Nothing, he asserts, can prevent Russia from recognizing South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which, in his view, more resemble properly governed states than does Georgia, which he labeled a classic failed state. "Neither economically, nor military-politically, has [Georgia] become a state with consolidated power and efficiently working economic and political institutions," contends Migranyan. "It survives due to the support coming from the West and international financial organizations."

Both Migranyan and Mezhuyev assert that after the Soviet Union's collapse, the notion of territorial integrity became irrelevant. "Territorial integrity emerges where the local authorities have managed to strengthen their statehood, created viable political institutions, and maintained control within the former administrative borders," writes Migranyan (Izvestiya, September 17).

Both policy papers suggest that Russia should be much more assertive in the region it considers its zone of vital interest. In Migranyan's opinion, Russian diplomacy should send a clear signal that Moscow would be prepared to take unilateral moves within the CIS to protect its citizens and maintain security along its borders. Echoes Mezhuyev, "At this moment in history, the only rational actor is one who formulates the principles guiding his actions."

--Igor Torbakov

#33 Iran01

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 09:14 AM

Next time you are in war with rep of Azerbayjan: GO ALL THE WAY TO CASPIAN SEA

We will get off those panturks in Baku!
You will get some sea coast to have fun, some caviar, boats ... smile.gif

#34 Arpa

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 09:39 AM

QUOTE (Iran01 @ Jan 20 2005, 03:14 PM)
Next time you are in war with rep of Azerbayjan: GO ALL THE WAY TO CASPIAN SEA

We will get  off those panturks in Baku!
You will get some sea coast to have fun, some caviar, boats ... smile.gif

Hear! Hear!
Iran 01 for President!!

clap.gif clap.gif

But, don't you think, perhaps Iran should cleanse the so-called Iranian Azerbaijan, whatever that may mean, a virtual "fifth column" for Turanian Turkey?
Let us stop talking with forked tongues and set aside religion, "is-tupid' Islam in this case.
Remove the Turk from between us and we will be Iran-Armen brothers once again.

#35 Nakharar

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Posted 20 January 2005 - 10:34 AM

QUOTE (Iran01 @ Jan 20 2005, 04:14 PM)
Next time you are in war with rep of Azerbayjan: GO ALL THE WAY TO CASPIAN SEA

We will get  off those panturks in Baku!
You will get some sea coast to have fun, some caviar, boats ... smile.gif


How are you going to get rid of the 40% Azeris in your country? Do you expect them to dissipate into thin air? biggrin.gif
Or watch them storm Teheran with the Americans in 2006. tongue.gif

#36 Iran01

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 02:31 AM

QUOTE (Arpa @ Jan 20 2005, 09:39 AM)
Hear! Hear!
Iran 01 for President!!



But, don't you think, perhaps Iran should cleanse the so-called Iranian Azerbaijan, whatever that may mean, a virtual "fifth column" for Turanian Turkey?
Let us stop talking with forked tongues and set aside religion, "is-tupid' Islam in this case.
Remove the Turk from between us and we will be Iran-Armen brothers once again.


cleanse the so-called Azerbaijan! huh.gif
Actually Turkeys president was in Tehran for 2 years ago.
He wanted to visit Tabriz on his way back to Ankara. He thought millions of Turks would gathered on the street of Tabriz and ask him for Turkeys support ... bla bla a "fifth column" tongue.gif
But the reality was : not a single soul was there to welcome him
So they took him as a turist to some museum in Tabriz and then said goodby to him.


Yeah sure "stupid Islam" tongue.gif
What about you convert back to old good Zarathushtrianism! wink.gif
Or import 100 000 Iranian mullah and re-educate them like Armenian priest and send them back to Qom to promoting Christianity: Armenian version ohmy.gif
Sounds cool: Yerevan as religious center , Tehran as economic center


To be serious: All the way between Artsax and Caspian sea is populated by Talishi. They are not Turkish. Think about it! It would be a easy case for Armenia to controll that area if Armenia is gentle to these people. Which I believe you can.

#37 MosJan

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 02:37 AM

QUOTE (Iran01 @ Jan 21 2005, 01:31 AM)
cl 
To be serious: All the way between Artsax and Caspian sea is populated by Talishi. They are not Turkish. Think about it! It would be a easy case for Armenia to controll that area if Armenia is gentle to these people. Which I believe you can.



Oh we will smile.gif only if you gave me 50% of on made in Iran/Isfahan Carpet apricot.gif

#38 Iran01

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 02:59 AM

QUOTE (MosJan @ Jan 21 2005, 02:37 AM)
Oh we will smile.gif only if you gave me 50%  of  on made in Iran/Isfahan  Carpet apricot.gif


oh sorry! I forgot to mention Talishi Carpet are beatifull too smile.gif
http://www.jozan.net...er/lenkoran.asp

Go to the caspian sea: oil, Caviar, holliday on beach, carpet , new neighbours ( Russia, Kasakistan, Turkmenistan)

#39 Artsakh

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 04:38 PM

Iran01,

its very naieve ..... of you to think that the Azeri Turk scumbags within your country are Persianized and are pro-Iran. Thats not the case. They are their own people and pose a real threat to Iran. Don't think for a second that they wouldn't backstab you if they had the slightest advantage in doing so. In fact, god forbid, if the US ever decides to invade iran, the Azeri filth within your country would be the first to cause a widescale unrest in Iran and make it real easy for not only the US to attack, but also the armies of Turkey and Azerbaijan. You are real naieve person. I suppose you also think that Armenian from iran are also persianized? well, my neighbors are armenians from iran all they do all day is critize the persians as .........




Artsakh jan please don’t use any personal insults or name calling

Just a friendly reminder
Thank you

MOsjan

Edited by MosJan, 21 January 2005 - 05:21 PM.


#40 Iran01

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 05:20 PM

QUOTE (Artsakh @ Jan 21 2005, 04:38 PM)
Iran01,

its very naieve  of you to think that the Azeri Turk scumbags within your country are Persianized and are pro-Iran.  Thats not the case.  They are their own people and pose a real threat to Iran.  Don't think for a second that they wouldn't backstab you if they had the slightest advantage in doing so.  In fact, god forbid, if the US ever decides to invade iran, the Azeri filth within your country would be the first to cause a widescale unrest in Iran and make it real easy for not only the US to attack, but also the armies of Turkey and Azerbaijan.  You are real naieve person.  I suppose you also think that Armenian from iran are also persianized? well, my neighbors are armenians from iran all they do all day is critize the persians as ........



Yeah, I guess you need to change your company smile.gif Your neigbors will have bad influnce on you, that is for sure.

I didnt say they are Persianized! If only 10% of Iranians were "Persianized" as old good time when the biggest sin, crime was a lie for them! Then Iran would never face 1979 revolution and the current situation today.

For you information , during II war with the help of Russians communists a panTurk with name Pishevari tried to separate Iranian Azarbaijan. He had 2 years.
But when the Russians were gone it took central government in Tehran 2 days to clean up in Iranian Azarbaijan. biggrin.gif
It tell you a lot how must support panTurks had and have among Iranian Azari: 0%.

Close to same period, Dashnak had a bad attitude in Iranian Azarbaijan and started religious war. Many in Urumia ( which had/have a mixed population of Kurd, Azari, Assyrian, Armenian ) got killed.

Majority of PanIranist and nationlaist in Iran are from Iranian Azarbaijan:
Akhundzadeh, Taghizadeh, Iranshahr, Afshar, Kasravi, Azad Maraghei, Arani, Bahar .... Are just a few names during last 100 years whom had great influence on modern understanding of Iranism.

Actually I dont understand your logic! if you think Iranians should not be naive, stupid and clean up since "they are not persianized". So who is next after "Azari Turks"? Armenians!!!

Edited by Iran01, 21 January 2005 - 05:24 PM.





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