25 replies to this topic

[khodja]

The time has come that ALL Armenian clerics should be allowed to marry, including the Catholicos. There is no justification for any celebacy at all. EVEN Jesus had a wife, Magdalene.
If homosexuals are priests, they should be allowed to have a partner. There is NO justification to bar them as their orientation is inborn and thus ordained by God. I am so tired of you traditional conservatives creating such problems where little children, female and male, are being abused.

[Sip]

vow vow vow ... hold on a sec ... that's a BIG jump going from celebacy to child abuse. I know it is somewhat natural (as our friend Twilight B would say "mainstream"-ish) to assume that just because you don't do "wink wink", you would naturally think about abusing childeren and maybe even farm animals but come on now, I don't buy that! Those that engage in child abuse have something really screwed up in their brain ...

I don't think celebacy "leads" to child abuse... that's all I am saying!!!

[ April 16, 2002, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: Sip ]

[Twilight Bark]

While I agree that celibacy is counterproductive, I also agree with Sip that it has little or nothing to do with child molestation. Armenian church has married priests ("der-hair" or "kahana"). Therefore, those that think church is their calling but also want to have a family can do so in a perfectly dignified manner. As for the "celibate" Armenian priests that have a change of heart, I am sure many of us have heard of comical folk tales about bishops with mistresses. Child abuse does not, and should not, come into the discussion as some sort of a natural result of celibacy gone bad.

However, it has been theorized that men from conservative backgrounds but with "deviant" urges often hope to suppress those tendencies by becoming celibate priests. This hope is very often in vain, and the Catholic Church ended up with a disproportionate number of child molesters in the celibate priest population. So far the Armenian Church has been "immaculate" in that respect as far as I know. Eliminating the celibacy requirement would solve many problems for the church. It would make priesthood available to many devout people who do not agree with the celibacy requirement, thus solving the problem of dwindling numbers of priests. It would eliminate celibacy as a false refuge for people suffering from deviant urges; they need therapy not temporary celibacy. In the end, the priest population would have a much smaller percentage of child molesters than the overall population; the exact opposite of the current state.

In any case, we can be proud that the Armenian Church has been untouched by such scandals. Fingers crossed.

[gamavor]

Lets not forget that some celibate Armenian Priests (Bishops), thanks to their sexuality have played a significant role, shaping the historical destiny of Armenia. Do you remember the name of the Bishop that was very close to Ekaterina the Great?

[khodja]

Twilight Bark, were you born with your gentle wisdom or did your parents instill it within you?I must say it is a honor to be able to savor your wisdom in this anonymous forum.

Also, Gamavor is being true to form, making a point as to the benefits of celibate Armenian priests. Lifelong celibacy is unnatural and leads to mental aberration. As a child, have you ever tasted the wrath of a celibate nun or brother? It goes beyond discipline to the point of sadism. My father, the grandson of a major Armenian Catholic benefactor, bolted from the Catholic Church after the abuse he received in Catholic boarding schools was compounded by the abuse of his projeny. Please listen to TB.

[khodja]

Gamavor, what is the story of the Armenian priest?

[gamavor]

Arghutian, Hovsep, born 23.5. 1743-9.3.1801. from the clan of Yergainabatzugner ( or otherwise known as the House of Kniaz Dolgorukii). High ranking celibate priest and spiritual leader, active member of the Armenian liberation movement. Graduated from Edchmiadzin during the reign of Simeon Yerevantzi Katolikos. In 1769 is ordained as Bishop. In 1773 is appointed as a Spiritual leader of the Armenian diocese in Russia. Armenian population of Crimea is also included in his Diocese. Under his leadership Armenians from Crimea emigrated to Russia and established the town Nor Nakhichevan. Thanks to his efforts and in response to the request of the Armenians from Moldova and Besarabia , in 1792 he established the town Grigoriopole.
Arghutian together with H. Lazarian participates in a committee established by Kniaz Potiomkin regarding the Russian policies in Caucasus. Arghutian is an active supporter of the restoration of the Armenian Independence and Liberation. Arghutian appeals to the Armenian people to help Russian forces. At that time he becomes a close “friend” of Ekaterina II. In 1789 he submits a Proposal-project to Paul I about the Liberation of Armenia. In 1796 Bishop Arghutian with sword in his hands personally participates in the Russian military campaign in Caucasus.
Hovsep Arghutian is an author of more than 40 books published in St. Petersburg, Nor Nakhichevan and Astrakhan. In 1800 he is elected Katolikos of the Armenian church, but never been ordained. He dies in Tiflis in 1801.

[khodja]

Thank you, Gamavor.

[Twilight Bark]

Thanks for your kind words. We all have our insights to contribute; we have been showing one another alternative ways to look at things, all the while maintaining a good level of cordiality. We have developed an unusually mature and intelligent culture in this forum, and credit is due to many of the participants. We are all helping each other become wiser.

[gamavor]

...just a little note to Hagarag:
Jesus has never been married to Magdalene. Their period together might best be described as cohabitation, unless you wish to apply the stupid Common law doctrine where someone might be regarded as married simply because he/she is sharing certain things (bed, for example) with a woman or man.

[khodja]

Gamavor,

And what of their three children, even though only one of these three ever produced children of their own? This is the secret of the Holy Grail for which the Templars were eliminated. Do you really know what the Crusades were REALLY about?

[gamavor]

Hagarah, please... I appreciate your sense of humor but, that is a bit too much.
Since you were talking about Holly Graal, you reminded me my favorite pick up line - "Indiana Jones, nice to meet you!"

[khodja]

Gamavor,

Unfortunately, I am not being humorous. Who would have believed the extent of what is being revealed today, re: Catholic Church, just a few years ago. The time of revelation is upon us. EVERYTHING will BE revealed. Please do some independent reading, Gamavor. It will not diminish your faith in Jesus, but will enhance it.

[gamavor]

I will, Hagarag, I will!

[khodja]

Gamavor,

Just like the Armenian who first preached in Ireland, you will find that when the big picture is revealed, the history of the Armenians will be a critical joint supporting the whole premise. Start with the impetus for the Crusades, and the major personages who conducted them. Look into who became the royalty of these Crusader Kingdoms, including Little Armenia, who they were and from whence they came.

[addai]

EVEN Jesus had a wife, Magdalene.

Uh Jesus had no wife. The only place I know that states he did was in the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas which is not accepted by any know Christian Church.

[America-Hye]

When you kill people who disagree with you, the hierarchical church has no validity.
The Knights Templar found records in the East of Jesus' wife. We all know what happened to them. Read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" a book published about ten years ago. It will clarify much of this. Are organized Christian Churches today infallible? Do they espouse the whole truth? I think not.

[Arad9]

EVEN Jesus had a wife, Magdalene.

Isn't this suppose to go in the new jokes section in the Humor part of the forum?

The Knights Templar found records in the East of Jesus' wife.

Yeah OK they were at the wedding right?

Read "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" a book published about ten years ago. It will clarify much of this. Are organized Christian Churches today infallible? Do they espouse the whole truth? I think not.

Don't waste your time trying to find information on this Addai its probibly some poor attempt by some author that wants to be famous. It is a fabrication about Jesus wife. The author tried to make believe, if I am not mistaken the English royal family and other famlies are the descendents of Christ. I would not be suprised that some bureaucrat paid the author to make up fables about there family own or to discredit Christ. And about the infalliblity of the Church I would like you to show me ONE instance in history that the Armenian Church has been fallable. And I mean in its teachings.

Thanks Seaphan, I made the correction

---
I deleted my post. --Sip

Edited by Seapahn, 26 October 2003 - 12:14 AM.

[Arad9]

this should explain "holy blood ,holy grail"
http://www.equip.org/free/DH028.htm
Test your statments before making an accusation.