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Forgotten Armenian cities in Turkey.


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#1 Mesrob

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Posted 13 April 2001 - 06:05 PM

Is there any repository in the new world that cross references The original name of Turkish cities before the genocide? I just wonder that a city of 5000 Armenians doesn't appear on the map anymore.

#2 bellthecat

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Posted 15 April 2001 - 03:39 PM

Most large cities have not changed their names. There are books in Turkey that list all the "old" names opposite the "new" ones. But it is easy to see just by looking at old and new maps.

Steve

#3 MosJan

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Posted 02 May 2001 - 10:53 AM

MEsrob jan
i was in Yerevan on the april 24th , ther was a nice TV program on tv about Armenian citys in turky , it was one of the best programs that i hev seen , it was about 17 citys , i'l get you some more info soon.
Movses

#4 armeniangirl83

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Posted 09 May 2001 - 12:33 AM

can you please tell which cities, MosJan?
thanx

#5 Mesrob

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Posted 09 July 2001 - 08:56 AM

Most travelers that came back from the diocesan trip through Turkey were unable to find the villages their elders came from. The local population wasn't particularly helpful unless you were lucky enough to find an old timer that still remembers. I worry that unless we can get them documented the cloud of time will erode all memory.

#6 bellthecat

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Posted 10 July 2001 - 02:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mesrob:
Most travelers that came back from the diocesan trip through Turkey were unable to find the villages their elders came from. The local population wasn't particularly helpful unless you were lucky enough to find an old timer that still remembers. I worry that unless we can get them documented the cloud of time will erode all memory.


If those travellers had difficulties, then I think it is because of the sort of mass-market tour group they chose to be on.

Providing a person has some reasonable idea of the name and location of his/her ancestors village then it is normally easy to find. There is no danger of something as basic as a place name being lost to posterity, even if it is no longer officially in use. What is in danger of being lost is geographical names.

Steve

#7 Karine

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Posted 17 July 2001 - 12:59 PM

The original name of the cities was in Armenian, or at least -connected to Armenians.I believe this is the main reason why they changed many of the names to turkish.

Like Diarbekir = Dikranakert

Van is to famous to change, as well as Ani.

#8 bellthecat

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Posted 18 July 2001 - 04:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Karine:

Like Diarbekir = Dikranakert



Actually, Diyarbakir was never called Tigranakert. Tigranakert was a completely different place, further to the east, some of whose Armenian population moved to Diyarbekir but continued ro refer to themselves as being from Tigranakert.

Steve

#9 ThornyRose

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Posted 18 July 2001 - 09:36 AM

quote:
Originally posted by bellthecat:


Actually, Diyarbakir was never called Tigranakert. Tigranakert was a completely different place, further to the east, some of whose Armenian population moved to Diyarbekir but continued ro refer to themselves as being from Tigranakert.

Steve



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#10 aurguplu

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Posted 07 September 2001 - 01:08 AM

re place names:

almost all place-names in turkey wich are along the lines of türkyurdu, öztürk, horasan, güzelyurt, etc. are obviously new coinages. a friend of mine from erzincan had once told me that her hometown's name was changed to gülbahçe "rose garden" from the original "stemi" which was armenian.

also, many place names that still exist do actually derive from pre-turkic languages, but are corrupted due to a change in pronunciation. examples are bayburt (papert), ağlasun (from greek sagalassos or sagalasson, and sounds very much like turkish "let him cry"), geyre (from original caria of antiquity), all names ending in -girt (kert) like malazgirt, mazgirt, etc. in addition, eastern anatolia is still full of villages that are called "venk" or "vank", and tatvan of van lake fame meant "foot of van" in the local armenian dialect.

even if they change the names, the population tends to remember them.

#11 aurguplu

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Posted 07 September 2001 - 03:17 AM

the original name of van was "tushpa" in urartu times. now since both urartian and hurrian were caucasian languages - like georgian, laz, circassian etc. - and not indo-european, this name is not armenian. but the current name "van" seems to me very similar to "venk, vank" in modern armenian which i understand means "village" (there are dozens of villages so named in eastern anatolia.

could anyone clarify what "van" meant and what language it came from, please?

#12 bellthecat

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Posted 16 September 2001 - 03:11 PM

According to a Turkish publication (i.e. this explanation should not be automatically believed), the Urartians called themselves "Bianeli" this gradually changed to "Biane", which gradually evolved into the name "Van".

NB: the correct pronunciation of Van is Wan - but there is no "w" in Turkish, so the V pronounciation is used in official circles.

Same for Acht'amar - the official spelling and pronounciation is Akdamar.

Steve

#13 Harut

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Posted 16 September 2001 - 09:06 PM

it is Akhtamar in Armenian.

if i'm not mistaken, Urartian was Semitic language.

it is correct(as far as i know) that they called their county "Biaynilli", and their capital "Tushpa".

again as far as i know, the name Van originated in 7-6 BC when Indo-European languages started to domitate in the region.
and already at the time of Yervandians(one of the first true Armenian dynasties) it was popularly known as Van.

the word "vank" is now mainly used as the word "yekeghetsi"(church).
it is true that it is part of many city/villege names in Armenian. but i don't know whether it comes from the word "van" or it means villege.

#14 aurguplu

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Posted 17 September 2001 - 11:06 PM

harut,

urartian (and its relation hurrian) are neither indo-european nor semitic. they are not that well understood, in fact, but what has been understood tells us that if they had any relatives, these must be the present day caucasian languages like georgian, cherkess, laz, mingrel, chechen, etc. they are a problem temselves when sorting out family ties.

regards,

#15 bellthecat

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Posted 17 September 2001 - 12:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Harut:
it is Akhtamar in Armenian.



"Acht'amar" is closest to the correct pronounciation - "ch" is sort of like the Scottish "loch", and with the "t" sounded out distinct and separate from the following "a".

"Aghtamar" is an alternative spelling that is often found, "Akhtamar" is wrong - there is no "k" sound.

Steve

#16 Harut

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Posted 17 September 2001 - 01:02 PM

what language do you suppose Akhtamar is in?
what's the origin of the word?

it's not sound "k", it's "kh".

#17 aurguplu

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Posted 18 September 2001 - 03:47 AM

i had heard in turkey - and read in at least one enhglish publication - the origin of the name "akhtamar".

there was an armenian colony or convent on the island, and the daughter of the head of the convent was called tamara (tamar). she fell in love with a turkish shepherd from one of the villages on the shore. the shepherd used to visit her at nighttime for fear of the father by swimming across lake van, while she would hold a lantern to guide him to the shore.

then the father discovered what was going on... he locked up the girl in the cloister, and went to the shore at night with a handful of men with lanterns in their hands. they lit the lanterns now here, then there, causing the poor shepherd to swim in every conceivable direction before he finally got exhausted and drowned. his last words were "akh tamara, akh tamara" as he was drowning.

now i would believe this to be a fabrication by the turkish government, had i not heard it from the locals and read it in at least one english publication by an english lady called diana darke: guide to eastern turkey.

perhaps steve could shed some light on it.

regards,

#18 ThornyRose

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Posted 18 September 2001 - 07:44 AM

Ali, are you sure it is a Turkish shepherd?

#19 bellthecat

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Posted 18 September 2001 - 11:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Harut:
what language do you suppose Akhtamar is in?
what's the origin of the word?

it's not sound "k", it's "kh".




That's correct - but the way you are spelling it, an unsuspecting reader would pronounce it as "k" - which is why I think the first two spellings are better, they are more likely to lead to the proper pronounciation, imho!

Actually, the standard "academic" spelling/transliteration is different from any of these versions - and I cannot reproduce it here because the letters are not reproducable over the internet! The "ch" is represented by an "L" with a line across it at 80 degrees.

#20 bellthecat

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Posted 18 September 2001 - 11:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by aurguplu:
i had heard in turkey - and read in at least one enhglish publication - the origin of the name "akhtamar".

there was an armenian colony or convent on the island, and the daughter of the head of the convent was called tamara (tamar). she fell in love with a turkish shepherd from one of the villages on the shore. the shepherd used to visit her at nighttime for fear of the father by swimming across lake van, while she would hold a lantern to guide him to the shore.

then the father discovered what was going on... he locked up the girl in the cloister, and went to the shore at night with a handful of men with lanterns in their hands. they lit the lanterns now here, then there, causing the poor shepherd to swim in every conceivable direction before he finally got exhausted and drowned. his last words were "akh tamara, akh tamara" as he was drowning.

now i would believe this to be a fabrication by the turkish government, had i not heard it from the locals and read it in at least one english publication by an english lady called diana darke: guide to eastern turkey.

perhaps steve could shed some light on it.

regards,



I think this story is not of great antiquity, and is probably from the 18th century, when the original meaning of the name was lost (if indeed it was ever known). Your version distorts the original story a bit (well, a lot actually) eg. bishops could not marry, so they would not have had daughters - none they would admit to anyway! - and the man drowns in a storm in the original story.

It was written down as a poem in the 19th century - there was a posting about it in the poetry section a long while ago. There is also an English version around - it (the English version anyway) is very bad poetry!

Steve




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