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Israel: "Mad Cow " or Simply Maddened?
Started by
Rubo
, Jul 24 2002 03:06 AM
118 replies to this topic
#101
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 02:34 AM
#102
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 05:04 AM
quote:
Originally posted by hagarag:
[QBGiven the HIV virus, a killer virus which is prolferating in the CIS, ignorance should not prevail. It sometimes takes up to 20 years for this virus to become apparent. By then someone who may have homosexual experience could have infected their spouse and children. [/QB]
Note on the side: HIV IS NOT A HOMOSEXUAL DISEASE!! IT CAN BE PASSED ON THROUGH 100% HETEROSEXUALS JUST AS EASILY! EXCHANGE OF BLOOD OR SEXUAL FLUIDS IS ENOUGH TO INFECT ANYONE!Originally posted by hagarag:
[QBGiven the HIV virus, a killer virus which is prolferating in the CIS, ignorance should not prevail. It sometimes takes up to 20 years for this virus to become apparent. By then someone who may have homosexual experience could have infected their spouse and children. [/QB]
Secondly, I've heard that the most prevalent factor threatening CIS with HIV is heroine addiction, the lack of clean needles and the lack of information about sharing needles.
One last myth concerning HIV and AIDS, is that it does not necessarily affect everyone. There is a large enough populace that is immune to this virus, but IMO this should not be a reason for people to experiment.
All in all, I agree that education about HIV and AIDS should be compulsory in all schools and public institutions around the world, and that the taboo on the risks and consequences of unsafe sex and blood transfusion should be banished.
Nairi
#103
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 07:04 AM
Alla -
if everything under the Soviets was so great then where are they now? Why cold they not prevent their own collapse? And you are fooling yourself if you think that the current situation in the former SU nations is so bad BECAUSE of capitalism. Its because of the corruption, inefficiency and moral bankruptcy of communism and the Soviet system. Everything from shoddy constructiion to poor consumer goods - lines for food - etc - yea some idealic life. I understand that things are not good there now - and that people look back on the stability and wish for it again (and that is understandable) - but I argue that memory is selective. I know I sure wouldn't want to fear the KGB (or my neighbors) etc - that is no life. As for education (and other things) - yes the west has its problems - and yes distinctions based on the amount of money that one has certainly exist. But you cannot compare the standard/quality of living in western nations to those under communisim anywhere in the world and at any time (even you "golden age" of Breznev) and ever say that things were better under communism. And I dispute your conclusion that the Soviet Union had the better graduate level schools and such - though I don't disput e that there were very good ones. But you cannot have ideal education under a restricted system - in the west we have (for the most part) open access to information - and only in this environment will one truly have the oppurtunity to reach the peaks of knowledge. And if you are comparing education - you must also consider the private education provided by corporations & such in the western model. I'm not discounting preogress & invention that occured under the Soviet Union (but look at the cost to the rest of society) - but in the West there has clearly been the greatest achievement and the most desirable life all around.
if everything under the Soviets was so great then where are they now? Why cold they not prevent their own collapse? And you are fooling yourself if you think that the current situation in the former SU nations is so bad BECAUSE of capitalism. Its because of the corruption, inefficiency and moral bankruptcy of communism and the Soviet system. Everything from shoddy constructiion to poor consumer goods - lines for food - etc - yea some idealic life. I understand that things are not good there now - and that people look back on the stability and wish for it again (and that is understandable) - but I argue that memory is selective. I know I sure wouldn't want to fear the KGB (or my neighbors) etc - that is no life. As for education (and other things) - yes the west has its problems - and yes distinctions based on the amount of money that one has certainly exist. But you cannot compare the standard/quality of living in western nations to those under communisim anywhere in the world and at any time (even you "golden age" of Breznev) and ever say that things were better under communism. And I dispute your conclusion that the Soviet Union had the better graduate level schools and such - though I don't disput e that there were very good ones. But you cannot have ideal education under a restricted system - in the west we have (for the most part) open access to information - and only in this environment will one truly have the oppurtunity to reach the peaks of knowledge. And if you are comparing education - you must also consider the private education provided by corporations & such in the western model. I'm not discounting preogress & invention that occured under the Soviet Union (but look at the cost to the rest of society) - but in the West there has clearly been the greatest achievement and the most desirable life all around.
#104
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 07:44 AM
Thoth
Let me begin by this “ Let who without a sin cast the first stone” Christ. I am not a particularly religious person in traditional sense but I have learned a whole lot by that sentence alone. You slightly suggested that I think too much on the contrary I will argue that we do not think hard enough or deep enough. Take for example Alla. She was honest enough to say how she felt about the Jews and we had Hagarag and others pounce on her with derogatory inflammatory comments. Do you honestly believe by antagonizing Alla you would have accomplished anything? I believe on the contrary you would have solidified her position even more. Honesty is rare. She is only nineteen and she has rest of her live to learn, change and grow. By allowing to establish a civil dialogue we can achieve much more positive results, this also applies dialogue with the Turks who hate Armenians or vice versa. Let all us be honest! Didn’t we some point in our lives hate the Turks or the Jews or homosexuals, conservatives, liberals etc. I believe we have learned from others and moved on so why are we so harsh when we encounter the same person that once resembled us? Understanding is a difficult process (case in point AG issues) and even more difficult having or showing true genuine compassion. Lets not forget that we as Armenians were baptized as Christians and at least we could reflect on the principals of Christianity.
Let me begin by this “ Let who without a sin cast the first stone” Christ. I am not a particularly religious person in traditional sense but I have learned a whole lot by that sentence alone. You slightly suggested that I think too much on the contrary I will argue that we do not think hard enough or deep enough. Take for example Alla. She was honest enough to say how she felt about the Jews and we had Hagarag and others pounce on her with derogatory inflammatory comments. Do you honestly believe by antagonizing Alla you would have accomplished anything? I believe on the contrary you would have solidified her position even more. Honesty is rare. She is only nineteen and she has rest of her live to learn, change and grow. By allowing to establish a civil dialogue we can achieve much more positive results, this also applies dialogue with the Turks who hate Armenians or vice versa. Let all us be honest! Didn’t we some point in our lives hate the Turks or the Jews or homosexuals, conservatives, liberals etc. I believe we have learned from others and moved on so why are we so harsh when we encounter the same person that once resembled us? Understanding is a difficult process (case in point AG issues) and even more difficult having or showing true genuine compassion. Lets not forget that we as Armenians were baptized as Christians and at least we could reflect on the principals of Christianity.
#105
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 08:57 AM
Rubo -
As I have known Turks (and Jews I guess as well could be included here) nearly all my life - I never had this hate like you speak. I understand your point however. And the Turks (government & some members) and Jews (Israel & some members) really do piss me off at times. But I cannot condone racist appraoch - ever - it is never the right way and it is never right. And this is what I (to some extent) see.
As I have known Turks (and Jews I guess as well could be included here) nearly all my life - I never had this hate like you speak. I understand your point however. And the Turks (government & some members) and Jews (Israel & some members) really do piss me off at times. But I cannot condone racist appraoch - ever - it is never the right way and it is never right. And this is what I (to some extent) see.
#106
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 09:29 AM
Dear Tooth,
I am old enough to remember the so called "Golden Age" of Brezniev. Some Golden age it was. We had to stand in line for food, and daily essentials. Oh ya it was great because it gave you the opportunity to meet new people as you were standing in line for an hour to buy bread.(Maybe this is why women did not work in Armenia in those days. They spent all day standing in lines )
I would say that the education system was very good. I do not think that we had as many great schools as there are in the west, but certainly there were handful that could compete with the best here.
As for innovations, under the communist system great inventions and strides were made in the military and things like so, but even the basic consumer goods were 20, 30, 40 years behind the west. Although I would say that under Soviet days they build the best sledge hammers. As proven by the fact that the Japanese use to by them by the millions and take them and melt them and make cars out of them.
I am old enough to remember the so called "Golden Age" of Brezniev. Some Golden age it was. We had to stand in line for food, and daily essentials. Oh ya it was great because it gave you the opportunity to meet new people as you were standing in line for an hour to buy bread.(Maybe this is why women did not work in Armenia in those days. They spent all day standing in lines )
I would say that the education system was very good. I do not think that we had as many great schools as there are in the west, but certainly there were handful that could compete with the best here.
As for innovations, under the communist system great inventions and strides were made in the military and things like so, but even the basic consumer goods were 20, 30, 40 years behind the west. Although I would say that under Soviet days they build the best sledge hammers. As proven by the fact that the Japanese use to by them by the millions and take them and melt them and make cars out of them.
#107
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 09:37 AM
Dear Alla, send me your e-mail address and I will reply.
#108
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 09:56 AM
Dear Hagarag,
"If the majority of your nationality are so tied to tradition that reason or human decency are not even considered in their views or actions, then it is not hatred that one feels but disgust. As both you and Alla were formed mentally within the Soviet or Arab mental sphere, you do not have the capabilty of thinking clearly. One has to be raised in a free society to be able to think clearly. Those raised under the Soviet religion, dogmatic Eastern Orthodoxy (includes Oriental Orthodox), traditional Roman Catholicism or under Islam are pre-programmed by their socialization process. Therefore to you I am a self-appointed moron. To those among the progressive American academic elite, I am part of the mainstram. You guysare neanderthals living in the 1800s."
I am really glad you are thinking clearly probably because you grow up in America. Well, first of all, it is another problem to investigate whether people from above mentioned societies think clearly or not. by the way, what it means to think clearly.Lets start with the definition, please, and then we will see. As for me, i grew up in Armenia but i would not say my thinking is shaped by Sovietism. People with shaped brains are now more than 50 years old. i do not think Alla or Rubo are one of those.
If you compare to types of thinkings then please be more specific (I am afreaid you cannot be) to show that - I guess you will need to give too many examples!Secondly, neandertals did not live in 1800s. Third, note that this thread was started with the facts by Rubo and then changed to "emotions" and useless posts. Give facts to deny(you as well as MJ) or don't read the posts, please.
Vahan
"If the majority of your nationality are so tied to tradition that reason or human decency are not even considered in their views or actions, then it is not hatred that one feels but disgust. As both you and Alla were formed mentally within the Soviet or Arab mental sphere, you do not have the capabilty of thinking clearly. One has to be raised in a free society to be able to think clearly. Those raised under the Soviet religion, dogmatic Eastern Orthodoxy (includes Oriental Orthodox), traditional Roman Catholicism or under Islam are pre-programmed by their socialization process. Therefore to you I am a self-appointed moron. To those among the progressive American academic elite, I am part of the mainstram. You guysare neanderthals living in the 1800s."
I am really glad you are thinking clearly probably because you grow up in America. Well, first of all, it is another problem to investigate whether people from above mentioned societies think clearly or not. by the way, what it means to think clearly.Lets start with the definition, please, and then we will see. As for me, i grew up in Armenia but i would not say my thinking is shaped by Sovietism. People with shaped brains are now more than 50 years old. i do not think Alla or Rubo are one of those.
If you compare to types of thinkings then please be more specific (I am afreaid you cannot be) to show that - I guess you will need to give too many examples!Secondly, neandertals did not live in 1800s. Third, note that this thread was started with the facts by Rubo and then changed to "emotions" and useless posts. Give facts to deny(you as well as MJ) or don't read the posts, please.
Vahan
#109
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 11:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Alla:
I made it clear that I dislike the Jews and it has nothing to do with me being a phobic, schizophrenic or a primitive person. So keep yuor names to yourself, because i know a lot of other nasty words too.
At least i wasn't called anti-Semite right?
Let's put it this way...Originally posted by Alla:
I made it clear that I dislike the Jews and it has nothing to do with me being a phobic, schizophrenic or a primitive person. So keep yuor names to yourself, because i know a lot of other nasty words too.
At least i wasn't called anti-Semite right?
I also dislike you. Therefore, I can say anything I want about you or to you. Even criticise...
I also suspect that I have better life than you do...
By the way, don't know about anti-Semitism, but cretainly you are anti-Jew.
#110
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 11:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by sen_vahan:
Third, note that this thread was started with the facts by Rubo and then changed to "emotions" and useless posts. Give facts to deny (you as well as MJ) or don't read the posts, please.
Vahan
Dear Vahan,Originally posted by sen_vahan:
Third, note that this thread was started with the facts by Rubo and then changed to "emotions" and useless posts. Give facts to deny (you as well as MJ) or don't read the posts, please.
Vahan
I think your last statement make no sense. If one would not read, one wouldn't even know what kind of facts should he/she give.
Also, if you stand up for something and speak out, finish your sentence,please. Otherwise what kind of response do you expect to you? All you say, comes across like, "Rubo srtitss es khosum."
From what I have seen, you have better qualities than that.
#111
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 11:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by THOTH:
Well no and no - first I didn't know that you do not drink - how is it then that Red Wine is one of your interests? And secondly I would not think to test your (or anyones) character in such a manner (by temptation) - as I do not consider being weak in this regard a flaw. If you are tempted and succumb - this is just the nature of your Dao...You are tested in other ways I think - and while I certainly sometimes disagree with your approach (and conclusions?) - by and large I am impressed with the manner in which you comment here (and agree with much that you say). Beyond that what is my interest in your character?
And besides - I generally see (consumption of) red wine as an entirely good thing...
Thoth,Originally posted by THOTH:
Well no and no - first I didn't know that you do not drink - how is it then that Red Wine is one of your interests? And secondly I would not think to test your (or anyones) character in such a manner (by temptation) - as I do not consider being weak in this regard a flaw. If you are tempted and succumb - this is just the nature of your Dao...You are tested in other ways I think - and while I certainly sometimes disagree with your approach (and conclusions?) - by and large I am impressed with the manner in which you comment here (and agree with much that you say). Beyond that what is my interest in your character?
And besides - I generally see (consumption of) red wine as an entirely good thing...
Sometimes you crack me up with your absence of humor...
I am having my coffee in a Cafe now. There is a nice Wine Bar next door...
Guess what...
#112
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 11:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Alla:
The Soviet high schools and Universities provided the highest education for everybody, unlike the US where u have to get into the Ivy League schools, in order, to get the highest education...
I think you mean the "most expensive" education money can buy (?). Just boggles the mind ... even someone like George W. Bush can be an "Ivy Leaguer" Originally posted by Alla:
The Soviet high schools and Universities provided the highest education for everybody, unlike the US where u have to get into the Ivy League schools, in order, to get the highest education...
#113
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 01:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MJ:
[QB][QUOTE]
Thoth,
Sometimes you crack me up with your absence of humor...
QB]
Yes - indeed - evidence I need to drink more...Originally posted by MJ:
[QB][QUOTE]
Thoth,
Sometimes you crack me up with your absence of humor...
QB]
BTW - you said that you are in Europe (now?). Whereabouts? For tommorow (by this time, hell by noon) I shall be in Rome. Might we run accross one another? (slim chance - but you never know)...
#114
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 01:49 PM
MJ,
yeah
so what i'm anti-jew??????
that's my problem and as i said before i have my own reasons as an ARmenian to dislike the Jews. It's none of your concerns. I hate the Jewish politics.
You can dislike me as much as you want
i don't give a damn.
I'm not going to make a comment on what you said about you live better than i do, because i don't think that it has anything to do with what we're talking about here and i didn't understand where you were going with it. Did u like win the lottery or something?
If you did then you damn sure you live better than I do.
You sounded like a pre-school kid with that comment.
Would you be so kind by telling me, or should I say, teaching me about how I live?
yeah
so what i'm anti-jew??????
that's my problem and as i said before i have my own reasons as an ARmenian to dislike the Jews. It's none of your concerns. I hate the Jewish politics.
You can dislike me as much as you want
i don't give a damn.
I'm not going to make a comment on what you said about you live better than i do, because i don't think that it has anything to do with what we're talking about here and i didn't understand where you were going with it. Did u like win the lottery or something?
If you did then you damn sure you live better than I do.
You sounded like a pre-school kid with that comment.
Would you be so kind by telling me, or should I say, teaching me about how I live?
#115
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 01:50 PM
Third, note that this thread was started with the facts by Rubo and then changed to "emotions" and useless posts. Give facts to deny (you as well as MJ) or don't read the posts, please.
Vahan
Dear Vahan,
I think your last statement make no sense. If one would not read, one wouldn't even know what kind of facts should he/she give.
let me translate that staement personally for you, MJ: "give facts or do not read the posts. i understand that your "honesty" does not allow you not to show your empty "state of mind" - emotions in this case." Ask yourself WHY DO YOU POST THAT CRAP? If you are not able to deny then either don't read or don't post.
" Also, if you stand up for something and speak out, finish your sentence,please. "
dear MJ,
all sentences are finished - look at them more carefully.
"Otherwise what kind of response do you expect to you? All you say, comes across like, "Rubo srtitss es khosum.""
"Srtizs CHES xosum" - that's about you reagrding Rubo's posts, otherwise you would give facts and would show your knowledge not the absense of that....
"From what I have seen, you have better qualities than that."
Your careful consideration is highly appreciated...
Vahan
Dear Vahan,
I think your last statement make no sense. If one would not read, one wouldn't even know what kind of facts should he/she give.
let me translate that staement personally for you, MJ: "give facts or do not read the posts. i understand that your "honesty" does not allow you not to show your empty "state of mind" - emotions in this case." Ask yourself WHY DO YOU POST THAT CRAP? If you are not able to deny then either don't read or don't post.
" Also, if you stand up for something and speak out, finish your sentence,please. "
dear MJ,
all sentences are finished - look at them more carefully.
"Otherwise what kind of response do you expect to you? All you say, comes across like, "Rubo srtitss es khosum.""
"Srtizs CHES xosum" - that's about you reagrding Rubo's posts, otherwise you would give facts and would show your knowledge not the absense of that....
"From what I have seen, you have better qualities than that."
Your careful consideration is highly appreciated...
#116
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 01:52 PM
Rubo,
i updated my profile
so you can send me a private message.
thanx
i updated my profile
so you can send me a private message.
thanx
#117
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 02:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by THOTH:
[QUOTE]
Thoth,
BTW - you said that you are in Europe (now?). Whereabouts? For tommorow (by this time, hell by noon) I shall be in Rome. Might we run accross one another? (slim chance - but you never know)...
Don't recall having said that, but your guess is right. Just in London, so would not have the luck of having wine with you in Rome, but you should feel free to call my stuardess, while in the air, and have her deliver to me a nice bottle of de Rhone. A small bottle is OK. Originally posted by THOTH:
[QUOTE]
Thoth,
BTW - you said that you are in Europe (now?). Whereabouts? For tommorow (by this time, hell by noon) I shall be in Rome. Might we run accross one another? (slim chance - but you never know)...
Vahan,
You should not understand my comments litterally. At least not always.
#118
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 02:51 PM
Some either are born “hreshtak” and maintained that state of mind ( very rare) or are small time liars. Another observation, What is the point of saying Alla you dislike Jews when She herself said so Dah? It is worth repeating this reply.
Let me begin by this “ Let who without a sin cast the first stone” Christ. I am not a particularly religious person in traditional sense but I have learned a whole lot by that sentence alone. You slightly suggested that I think too much on the contrary I will argue that we do not think hard enough or deep enough. Take for example Alla. She was honest enough to say how she felt about the Jews and we had Hagarag and others pounce on her with derogatory inflammatory comments. Do you honestly believe by antagonizing Alla you would have accomplished anything? I believe on the contrary you would have solidified her position even more. Honesty is rare. She is only nineteen and she has rest of her live to learn, change and grow. By allowing to establish a civil dialogue we can achieve much more positive results, this also applies dialogue with the Turks who hate Armenians or vice versa. Let all us be honest! Didn’t we some point in our lives hate the Turks or the Jews or homosexuals, conservatives, liberals etc. I believe we have learned from others and moved on so why are we so harsh when we encounter the same person that once resembled us? Understanding is a difficult process (case in point AG issues) and even more difficult having or showing true genuine compassion. Lets not forget that we as Armenians were baptized as Christians and at least we could reflect on the principals of Christianity.
Let me begin by this “ Let who without a sin cast the first stone” Christ. I am not a particularly religious person in traditional sense but I have learned a whole lot by that sentence alone. You slightly suggested that I think too much on the contrary I will argue that we do not think hard enough or deep enough. Take for example Alla. She was honest enough to say how she felt about the Jews and we had Hagarag and others pounce on her with derogatory inflammatory comments. Do you honestly believe by antagonizing Alla you would have accomplished anything? I believe on the contrary you would have solidified her position even more. Honesty is rare. She is only nineteen and she has rest of her live to learn, change and grow. By allowing to establish a civil dialogue we can achieve much more positive results, this also applies dialogue with the Turks who hate Armenians or vice versa. Let all us be honest! Didn’t we some point in our lives hate the Turks or the Jews or homosexuals, conservatives, liberals etc. I believe we have learned from others and moved on so why are we so harsh when we encounter the same person that once resembled us? Understanding is a difficult process (case in point AG issues) and even more difficult having or showing true genuine compassion. Lets not forget that we as Armenians were baptized as Christians and at least we could reflect on the principals of Christianity.
#119
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Posted 06 August 2002 - 03:33 PM
Some arguments are clearly not result of anti-Jews or anti-Turks or anti-Armenian but goes directly to the heart and soul of the person who utters them. Looking deeper not one of you asked Alla why she feels the way she does and perhaps it could be something that can be easily be “corrected” for lock of a better word. Often we act our worst selves not when we are wrong but when we are right thus having the moral superiority encourages the beast in us to destroy the very thing we profess we stand for in this case-none hatred ,hence in turn the frenzy becomes like Salvador Deli’s painting of people eating each other with spoons. Peace
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